Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

[danielpalos]

It's already happening.

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

There's a cost benefit analysis at work here.

When it becomes too expensive to pay your labor force then you find ways to decrease it while maintaining productivity. That's what technology does.

And unemployment is not cost effective at all because you are paying a person NOT to work so there is zero productivity

So what; Capitalists have to re-optimize for any change in equilibrium. We don't need those unskilled, low wage jobs if they can be easily automated.

UC has already been measured with a multiplier of two , so I don't know why you insist on obsolete propaganda from pre-WWII. Only Capital must circulate under capitalism and there is no unemployment only underpayment.

 

[danielpalos]

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

Buisness is already automating at $7.25 an hour

Your threat is shallow. if automation is available, they will use it

And, raising the minimum wage means remaining labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand. The multiplier does the rest. Only the right wing appeals to ignorance of economics but want to be taken as seriously as the "gospel Truth".

 

[Nostra]

Anyone else get the feeling every one of Danny Boy’s posts are just a cut and paste from the Communist Manifesto, or some other claptrap by Marx?

Its as if he has a program on his computer that says ”If someone uses this word or phrase, cut and paste this claptrap”.

 

[danielpalos]

Anyone else get the feeling every one of Danny Boy’s posts are just a cut and paste from the Communist Manifesto, or some other claptrap by Marx?

Its as if he has a program on his computer that says ”If someone uses this word or phrase, cut and paste this claptrap”.

lol. I get the feeling right wingers have nothing but ignorance and fallacy instead of any valid arguments for rebuttal.

I simply can't take right wingers morally serious with a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge. Job 34:30 applies.

 

[Redfish]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

nice try, but your rewrite of history is as full of shit as Nadler's pants.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

New business happens all the time. And, business must optimize for the new equilibrium anyway. And, capitalism has a Natural rate of unemployment.

You're totally ignoring reality.

According to You. I think you are appealing to ignorance of economics.

Not just me. I have yet to see anyone give you credit for economic understanding.

 

[hadit]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

We need jobs that teenagers and adults with few job skills can step into, work for a few months or years, then move into better paying jobs. Without them, we have high unemployment among the group that needs jobs the most, the young. They simply can't compete with the older guy who has proven skills and experience and is worth the higher pay.

Not at all. We don't need low wage jobs or any race to the bottom for capitalists bottom line. The less skilled could be going to school or learning a trade.

1. How do they afford going to school if they can't work?
2. Learning a trade means working a job at a low wage until you gain the skills to earn more, something that you say we don't need.

 

[hadit]

You're describing welfare, but giving it a different name so you can claim it will work differently. It won't. I've spanked you enough on this that you should know by now. Sad that you don't.

You only appeal to emotion regarding welfare not reason regarding solving simple poverty to promote the general welfare.

Use correct terminology and maybe people will take you seriously.

 

[hadit]

Anyone else get the feeling every one of Danny Boy’s posts are just a cut and paste from the Communist Manifesto, or some other claptrap by Marx?

Its as if he has a program on his computer that says ”If someone uses this word or phrase, cut and paste this claptrap”.

lol. I get the feeling right wingers have nothing but ignorance and fallacy instead of any valid arguments for rebuttal.

I simply can't take right wingers morally serious with a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge. Job 34:30 applies.

A bot is more flexible than your posts. Every single one, every single time, utterly predictable and utterly wrong.

 

[hadit]

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

Buisness is already automating at $7.25 an hour

Your threat is shallow. if automation is available, they will use it

And, raising the minimum wage means remaining labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand. The multiplier does the rest. Only the right wing appeals to ignorance of economics but want to be taken as seriously as the "gospel Truth".

You lost that argument when you admitted you thought raising the MW to $100/hr would solve poverty and pay down the national debt.

 

[Nostra]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

New business happens all the time. And, business must optimize for the new equilibrium anyway. And, capitalism has a Natural rate of unemployment.

You're totally ignoring reality.

According to You. I think you are appealing to ignorance of economics.

Not just me. I have yet to see anyone give you credit for economic understanding.

For good reason.

 

[danielpalos]

Not just me. I have yet to see anyone give you credit for economic understanding.

Only right wingers say that. We know y'all are just plain full of fallacy.

 

[danielpalos]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

We need jobs that teenagers and adults with few job skills can step into, work for a few months or years, then move into better paying jobs. Without them, we have high unemployment among the group that needs jobs the most, the young. They simply can't compete with the older guy who has proven skills and experience and is worth the higher pay.

Not at all. We don't need low wage jobs or any race to the bottom for capitalists bottom line. The less skilled could be going to school or learning a trade.

1. How do they afford going to school if they can't work?
2. Learning a trade means working a job at a low wage until you gain the skills to earn more, something that you say we don't need.

This is why I don't take you seriously about economic arguments. UC for simply being unemployed easily solves that problem.

 

[danielpalos]

You're describing welfare, but giving it a different name so you can claim it will work differently. It won't. I've spanked you enough on this that you should know by now. Sad that you don't.

You only appeal to emotion regarding welfare not reason regarding solving simple poverty to promote the general welfare.

Use correct terminology and maybe people will take you seriously.

lol. Stop appealing to ignorance and wanting to be taken seriously. Nobody who knows anything about economics take right wingers seriously about economics.

 

[hadit]

Not just me. I have yet to see anyone give you credit for economic understanding.

Only right wingers say that. We know y'all are just plain full of fallacy.

Okay, then cite some leftwingers on this board that give you credit for economic understanding.

 

[danielpalos]

Anyone else get the feeling every one of Danny Boy’s posts are just a cut and paste from the Communist Manifesto, or some other claptrap by Marx?

Its as if he has a program on his computer that says ”If someone uses this word or phrase, cut and paste this claptrap”.

lol. I get the feeling right wingers have nothing but ignorance and fallacy instead of any valid arguments for rebuttal.

I simply can't take right wingers morally serious with a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge. Job 34:30 applies.

A bot is more flexible than your posts. Every single one, every single time, utterly predictable and utterly wrong.

Says the guy who only has false witness bearing fallacy not the moral of true witness bearing.

 

[hadit]

You're describing welfare, but giving it a different name so you can claim it will work differently. It won't. I've spanked you enough on this that you should know by now. Sad that you don't.

You only appeal to emotion regarding welfare not reason regarding solving simple poverty to promote the general welfare.

Use correct terminology and maybe people will take you seriously.

lol. Stop appealing to ignorance and wanting to be taken seriously. Nobody who knows anything about economics take right wingers seriously about economics.

Dude, you make up words that don't exist, then pretend they're significant. You say words mean things that they don't. That's not taken seriously.

 

[danielpalos]

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

Buisness is already automating at $7.25 an hour

Your threat is shallow. if automation is available, they will use it

And, raising the minimum wage means remaining labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand. The multiplier does the rest. Only the right wing appeals to ignorance of economics but want to be taken as seriously as the "gospel Truth".

You lost that argument when you admitted you thought raising the MW to $100/hr would solve poverty and pay down the national debt.

You merely have nothing but ignorance. Raising the minimum wage that high means we could be balancing the budget and paying for our alleged wars in a more fiscally responsible manner.

 

[Pappadave1]

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

Buisness is already automating at $7.25 an hour

Your threat is shallow. if automation is available, they will use it

And, raising the minimum wage means remaining labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand. The multiplier does the rest. Only the right wing appeals to ignorance of economics but want to be taken as seriously as the "gospel Truth".

Not if there aren't any "minimum wage" jobs available any longer...which is the ultimate result of pricing labor out of the marketplace. The left's ignorance of economics is startling. When did their economics educations fail to teach them that wages for ANY labor should be commensurate with labor's PRODUCTION? If you PRODUCE $15/hour, you should be paid close to that amount, but if your labor only produces $3/hour, what idiot would even consider paying you $15?

 

[danielpalos]

For good reason.

lol. You have no good reasons only bad ignorance.