Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

New business happens all the time. And, business must optimize for the new equilibrium anyway. And, capitalism has a Natural rate of unemployment.

You're totally ignoring reality.

 

[Nostra]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

New business happens all the time. And, business must optimize for the new equilibrium anyway. And, capitalism has a Natural rate of unemployment.

You're totally ignoring reality.

That clown has never been in the same zip code as reality.

 

[hadit]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

We need jobs that teenagers and adults with few job skills can step into, work for a few months or years, then move into better paying jobs. Without them, we have high unemployment among the group that needs jobs the most, the young. They simply can't compete with the older guy who has proven skills and experience and is worth the higher pay.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

not at all. raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour will generate around nine times more in federal income tax revenue than our current minimum wage does now.

Do you care to prove that with some actual data?

I used California for State information.

Income Tax Calculator - USA - Salary After Taxes

neuvoo™ 【 Online Salary and Tax Calculator 】 provides your income after tax if you work in USA. We calculate how much your payroll will be after tax deductions in any region. Find your net pay for any salary. Our data is based on 2020 tax tables from USA

neuvoo.com

you do realize you have to show your work don't you?

This is the real world

Taxes are progressive.

The current minimum wage rate generates around 194 dollars in federal income tax revenue. A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates around 1852 dollars in federal income tax revenue; around nine times more in federal income tax revenue.

no it doesn't.

People making Federal MW pay no income tax

People making 15 an hour pay 58 dollars in federal income tax

The tax paid by anyone making 15 or more an hour now does not change so there is no way in hell you get a 900% revenue increase

What information are you using? Show your work. I gave you a website that calculates tax information based on wage rate.

and you didn't show how you got a 900% revenue increase

Income Tax Calculator: 2023-2024 Refund Estimator - NerdWallet

Estimate your federal refund or calculate your potential tax bill. Enter your income, filing status, age, and common deductions and adjustments to learn more.

www.nerdwallet.com

punch in 31200 annual salary claiming 1 dependent and the federal income tax for that person is 58 dollars a year

I used it for 30k with no dependents and got this amount:

Estimated federal taxes $1,914

Claim 1 dependent because you will get a refund if you don't.

You didn't figure that in did you?

I am keeping it simple. I use individual metrics. Means testing is more expensive.

you still have to account for the refund.

a person making 31200 annually ( $15 an hour) has a federal income tax liability of $58 if more is taken out of his paycheck in a year then he gets a refund

Someone making less gets even more refund and costs more in social services.

not really.

Yes, really. The earned income credit and the cost of social services, costs more and generates less of a multiplier than increasing the minimum wage.

Which puts more people into social services. You keep forgetting that.

Not with equal protection of the law for UC. A hypothetical fourteen dollar an hour equivalent for UC could mean market friendly participation for more people which directly affects the multiplier.

You're describing welfare, but giving it a different name so you can claim it will work differently. It won't. I've spanked you enough on this that you should know by now. Sad that you don't.

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

New business happens all the time. And, business must optimize for the new equilibrium anyway. And, capitalism has a Natural rate of unemployment.

You're totally ignoring reality.

According to You. I think you are appealing to ignorance of economics.

 

[danielpalos]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

We need jobs that teenagers and adults with few job skills can step into, work for a few months or years, then move into better paying jobs. Without them, we have high unemployment among the group that needs jobs the most, the young. They simply can't compete with the older guy who has proven skills and experience and is worth the higher pay.

Not at all. We don't need low wage jobs or any race to the bottom for capitalists bottom line. The less skilled could be going to school or learning a trade.

 

[danielpalos]

You're describing welfare, but giving it a different name so you can claim it will work differently. It won't. I've spanked you enough on this that you should know by now. Sad that you don't.

You only appeal to emotion regarding welfare not reason regarding solving simple poverty to promote the general welfare.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The billionaires got their tax cuts and that’s all that really matters.

You realize that the TAX code has built in loopholes for the super rich people to exploit to save millions in taxes?

So tell me then... how come the bottom 50% of Americans paid just 3% while the top 50 paid 97%?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2020 Update

The top 1 percent of taxpayers pay a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

taxfoundation.org

• In 2017, 143.3 million taxpayers reported earning $10.9 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
• The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent, from 19.7 percent in 2016. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose to 38.5 percent, from to 37.3 percent in 2016.
• In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

But of course FACTS mean nothing to dummies that constantly make money off the government!
For example:
The "poor" in 2010..
a) 8 million at least have FREE cell phones.. 1890 NOT EVEN A Millionaire had a cell phone!
b) 40 million getting FREE FOOD ... 1890 millionaires still had to pay!
c) Millions in poverty have TVs,Cars, internet.. things that DIDN"T exist in 1890!

I have known for a long time about this disparity, but I never said the Rich are not paying taxes, they are using the swiss cheese tax code to reduce their tax payment.

Some of the rich can just pass part of their tax liability into us through their businesses, which are NOT figured in your report!

It's no wonder that Trump won't share his taxes....

he doesn't have to.

There is absolutely no Constitutional requirement for any president to make his personal records public

And clearly repubs have lowered the bar enough that they will still vote for him. Man he has lowered the bar. Giant deficits are good. Ok to cheat on your third with with a porn star. Ruling by executive order is good. Lots and lots of golf is good....

For Christ's sake

Democrats only care about deficits and debt when republicans are in office and vice versa

Get your head out of your ass

And yet dems have a much better record. Clinton balanced the budget and bush ruined it. Obama fixed the bush mess and had deficits decreasing and then trump drastically increased them. It's clear your head is up your ass.

Clinton surfed the tech bubble to a one year balanced budget but he still added to the debt.

You need to learn to put things into context.

The tech bubble popped right after Blow Job Billy left office then we got hit with 9\11 and the stupid Iraq war that democrats voted for too.

Open your eyes and learn to see what's actually there and not just the crap you want to see

Yes I have heard all the excuses, they don't change the facts.

you don't deal in facts as is plain to see by your emotional responses to facts.

You don't even know that Congress not the President holds the purse strings so the budget doesn't belong to the President as much as it does to Congress. And when the president has to deal with a Congress of the opposition we tend to get better policy because that is how our system was designed to work.

It was all trump policy. Trump wanted the tax cuts and the military spending. Deficits increased drastically because repubs don't pay for anything.

just like Obama increased deficits just like Clinton did all but for one of 8 years just like Reagan, Carter and Bush1&2 did

JEsus Christ stop pretending one party is some how the paragon of economic virtue and open your eyes

Interestingly enough, Obama instituted less new spending than any president for decades.

and still manged to add almost 9 trillion to the debt

That shows you how reckless the Bush adminstration was.

 

[Nostra]

The billionaires got their tax cuts and that’s all that really matters.

You realize that the TAX code has built in loopholes for the super rich people to exploit to save millions in taxes?

So tell me then... how come the bottom 50% of Americans paid just 3% while the top 50 paid 97%?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2020 Update

The top 1 percent of taxpayers pay a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

taxfoundation.org

• In 2017, 143.3 million taxpayers reported earning $10.9 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
• The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent, from 19.7 percent in 2016. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose to 38.5 percent, from to 37.3 percent in 2016.
• In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

But of course FACTS mean nothing to dummies that constantly make money off the government!
For example:
The "poor" in 2010..
a) 8 million at least have FREE cell phones.. 1890 NOT EVEN A Millionaire had a cell phone!
b) 40 million getting FREE FOOD ... 1890 millionaires still had to pay!
c) Millions in poverty have TVs,Cars, internet.. things that DIDN"T exist in 1890!

I have known for a long time about this disparity, but I never said the Rich are not paying taxes, they are using the swiss cheese tax code to reduce their tax payment.

Some of the rich can just pass part of their tax liability into us through their businesses, which are NOT figured in your report!

It's no wonder that Trump won't share his taxes....

he doesn't have to.

There is absolutely no Constitutional requirement for any president to make his personal records public

And clearly repubs have lowered the bar enough that they will still vote for him. Man he has lowered the bar. Giant deficits are good. Ok to cheat on your third with with a porn star. Ruling by executive order is good. Lots and lots of golf is good....

For Christ's sake

Democrats only care about deficits and debt when republicans are in office and vice versa

Get your head out of your ass

And yet dems have a much better record. Clinton balanced the budget and bush ruined it. Obama fixed the bush mess and had deficits decreasing and then trump drastically increased them. It's clear your head is up your ass.

Clinton surfed the tech bubble to a one year balanced budget but he still added to the debt.

You need to learn to put things into context.

The tech bubble popped right after Blow Job Billy left office then we got hit with 9\11 and the stupid Iraq war that democrats voted for too.

Open your eyes and learn to see what's actually there and not just the crap you want to see

Yes I have heard all the excuses, they don't change the facts.

you don't deal in facts as is plain to see by your emotional responses to facts.

You don't even know that Congress not the President holds the purse strings so the budget doesn't belong to the President as much as it does to Congress. And when the president has to deal with a Congress of the opposition we tend to get better policy because that is how our system was designed to work.

It was all trump policy. Trump wanted the tax cuts and the military spending. Deficits increased drastically because repubs don't pay for anything.

just like Obama increased deficits just like Clinton did all but for one of 8 years just like Reagan, Carter and Bush1&2 did

JEsus Christ stop pretending one party is some how the paragon of economic virtue and open your eyes

Interestingly enough, Obama instituted less new spending than any president for decades.

and still manged to add almost 9 trillion to the debt

That shows you how reckless the Bush adminstration was.

So we can blame Barry for all the spending under Trump.
Cool.

 

[excalibur]

Such BS. The economy was the best in decades until the Chinese virus.

Still, we saw a 32% GDP growth in the 3rd quarter and it is expected that the 4th quarter will be ~10%.

And the best wage growth in 40 years.

Under Trump, Americans Have Seen Their Best Wage Growth In 40 Years

More than any other president in 40 years, Donald Trump has benefited working-class Americans, especially African Americans.

thefederalist.com

 

[Blues Man]

Putting an end to the lie that there was a Trump economic miracle. Trump entered office with dropping unemployment and a steadily rising market. He leaves the country in shambles.

US economy: Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

Alone among the 13 presidents since World War Two, Trump will exit the White House with fewer Americans employed than when he started. He will have overseen punier growth in economic output than any of the previous 12 presidents.

His throwback "America First" agenda has failed to restore the old economic engine that powered an earlier era's prosperity. On Trump's watch, industrial production has fallen. The Federal Reserve says the manufacturing sector fell into recession in 2019 even before the coronavirus pandemic hit.

how many of those presidents had a virus problem like he has?...before it hit we were doing pretty good.....

"how many of those presidents had a virus problem like he has?...before it hit we were doing pretty good....."""

That's the wrong question.
The right question is, How many other COUNTRIES had a virus problem like we have?
India has far fewer cases than we do. Let that fucking sink in, moron.
The economy cratered because Donald did virtually NOTHING compared to other developed, industrialized countries.
He tossed Obama's pandemic playbook and then woke up around May 15 and initiated Operation Warpspeed, which should have been started in January.

How many had a virus problem like we had?

Look at the death rates in all those woke Euro countries with Govt run healthcare.....they are 2-3 times what ours is, Dummy.

You lose again, Stupid.

You throw shit out and then don't dare post the facts.

#	Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop	Deaths/ 1M pop	Total Tests	Tests/ 1M pop	Population
	World	73,607,964	+404,482	1,637,031	+9,036	51,661,296	20,309,637	106,428	9,443	210.0
1	USA	17,047,129	+103,225	309,650	+1,553	9,947,047	6,790,432	27,874	51,364	933	224,184,627	675,486	331,886,264
2	India	9,930,284	+23,777	144,075	+329	9,451,646	334,563	8,944	7,164	104	155,560,655	112,224	1,386,160,236
3	Brazil	6,934,539	+5,130	181,978	+33	6,016,085	736,476	8,318	32,519	853	25,700,000	120,518	213,246,552
4	Russia	2,707,945	+26,689	47,968	+577	2,149,610	510,367	2,300	18,552	329	83,439,508	571,648	145,963,074
5	France	2,391,447	+11,532	59,072	+428	179,087	2,153,288	2,881	36,600	904	29,323,706	448,790	65,339,460
6	Turkey	1,898,447	+32,102	16,881	+235	1,661,191	220,375	5,988	22,400	199	21,490,195	253,570	84,750,497
7	UK	1,888,116	+18,450	64,908	+506	N/A	N/A	1,288	27,747	954	48,488,168	712,554	68,04

Death rate per 100000 in the US .09%

tell me if the death rate from cancer was .09% would you say we failed ?

 

[Blues Man]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

not at all. raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour will generate around nine times more in federal income tax revenue than our current minimum wage does now.

Do you care to prove that with some actual data?

I used California for State information.

Income Tax Calculator - USA - Salary After Taxes

neuvoo™ 【 Online Salary and Tax Calculator 】 provides your income after tax if you work in USA. We calculate how much your payroll will be after tax deductions in any region. Find your net pay for any salary. Our data is based on 2020 tax tables from USA

neuvoo.com

you do realize you have to show your work don't you?

This is the real world

Taxes are progressive.

The current minimum wage rate generates around 194 dollars in federal income tax revenue. A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates around 1852 dollars in federal income tax revenue; around nine times more in federal income tax revenue.

no it doesn't.

People making Federal MW pay no income tax

People making 15 an hour pay 58 dollars in federal income tax

The tax paid by anyone making 15 or more an hour now does not change so there is no way in hell you get a 900% revenue increase

What information are you using? Show your work. I gave you a website that calculates tax information based on wage rate.

and you didn't show how you got a 900% revenue increase

Income Tax Calculator: 2023-2024 Refund Estimator - NerdWallet

Estimate your federal refund or calculate your potential tax bill. Enter your income, filing status, age, and common deductions and adjustments to learn more.

www.nerdwallet.com

punch in 31200 annual salary claiming 1 dependent and the federal income tax for that person is 58 dollars a year

I used it for 30k with no dependents and got this amount:

Estimated federal taxes $1,914

Claim 1 dependent because you will get a refund if you don't.

You didn't figure that in did you?

I am keeping it simple. I use individual metrics. Means testing is more expensive.

you still have to account for the refund.

a person making 31200 annually ( $15 an hour) has a federal income tax liability of $58 if more is taken out of his paycheck in a year then he gets a refund

Someone making less gets even more refund and costs more in social services.

not really.

Yes, really. The earned income credit and the cost of social services, costs more and generates less of a multiplier than increasing the minimum wage.

the increase of the MW doesn't multiply tax revenue it might make 1 or 2%s of a percent difference so it will be insignificant

 

[Blues Man]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Then, why not simply increase the minimum wage to automate those jobs instead of paying less for those jobs and incurring the cost of social services as well. UC is much more cost effective.

It's already happening.

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

There's a cost benefit analysis at work here.

When it becomes too expensive to pay your labor force then you find ways to decrease it while maintaining productivity. That's what technology does.

And unemployment is not cost effective at all because you are paying a person NOT to work so there is zero productivity

 

[Blues Man]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

In fact it is the people working low wage jobs that lose their jobs not the people already making 15 an hour.

Not to mention that a 15 an hour MW will raise the cost of literally everything so take into account the people who will lose jobs or lose full time work and have to work part time and the fact that everything will cost more you don't really gain anything

It is a simple cost of living adjustment. And, prices won't double even if the minimum wage does. Some studies show an increase in the price of a "big mac" to be around thirty cents.

where did I say they would double? I said the price of everything would go up and they will.

So a Big Mac is going to go up 7.5% if we apply that increase to everything then your grocery bill will go up 7.5%, your clothing will go up 7.5%, and you will pay more sales tax on all those things that go up 7.5% now apply that 7.5% to everything you buy in a year and add in the additional sales taxes and tell me if you still come out ahead

So now it's just not the people making less than 15 an hour that get paid more but you have to give a "cost of living" raise to everyone else too?

It is a cost of living adjustment. This would not have been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation.

Why do you believe someone making the current minimum wage would be worse off with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage?

Someone making the current minimum wage nets around $12,861 while someone making the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage will net around $24,775.

inflation has been very low for a long time

and don't forget only 2% of all hourly workers get paid federal MW and that includes service workers who get tips that put them way over the federal MW. Most state MW are higher than the federal.

So the vast majority of hourly workers will not see that much of an increase

Today, only 2% of workers do. The number of federal minimum wage workers has decreased from 7.7 million in 1980 to 1.7 million today. This is partly due to states establishing higher minimum wages than the federal level .

The minimum wage was not increased for around a decade and inflation still happened. Wages must meet or beat inflation because social services are more expensive and have a worse multiplier effect than actually raising wages.

most states pay more than the federal minimum wage so inflation adjustments to the federal MW isn't really an issue to 98% of hourly workers

The average inflation rate over the past 10 years in 1.77%

So if you want to adjust federal MW for inflation over the past 10 years then you raise it to 8.48 not 15

The problem is the lack of an institutional upward pressure on wages. Capitalism isn't doing it. And, Labor needs to be able to afford our first world economy. People providing labor input to the economy for the minimum wage should not need social services, ceteris paribus.

you kind of reap what you sow here.

We have technology that has advanced so much that any moron who can button his shirt can monitor a machine that can make in minutes what used to take a skilled craftsman hours. Which is why we can buy all kinds of things for such little money.

We have a lowering need for actual skilled labor

So it's up to the people who are selling their labor to make that labor worth more to the market. If you force higher wages on people then all those jobs that just require a warm body will be gone

Look less than 2 % of all hourly workers make the federal minimum wage.

so there's not going to be this huge number of people lifted into the upper lower class and don't forget that the cost of everything will go up and all that will do is sap the purchasing power of the people who already make 15 an hour or more and those people far outnumber the people making significantly less than 15 an hour

Keep in mind that 42% of the workforce makes $15/hr or less, so there will be a massive wave through the entire job market if we double the MW overnight. It's not just the 2% currently at MW that will have their labor cost increase, and the ripple effect would eliminate a LOT of jobs.

a lot of those people are already making over 12 an hour I think those jobs will mostly be safe. Factor in the fact that the price of everything will go up and the purchasing power of people who make 12 and hour and up will most likely decrease.

The worst of the job losses will be in the labor force making less than 12 an hour and those are the people these idiots think will benefit from the MW increase

 

[Blues Man]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

people won't hire unskilled labor for 15 dollars an hour

 

[Blues Man]

The billionaires got their tax cuts and that’s all that really matters.

You realize that the TAX code has built in loopholes for the super rich people to exploit to save millions in taxes?

So tell me then... how come the bottom 50% of Americans paid just 3% while the top 50 paid 97%?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2020 Update

The top 1 percent of taxpayers pay a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

taxfoundation.org

• In 2017, 143.3 million taxpayers reported earning $10.9 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
• The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent, from 19.7 percent in 2016. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose to 38.5 percent, from to 37.3 percent in 2016.
• In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

But of course FACTS mean nothing to dummies that constantly make money off the government!
For example:
The "poor" in 2010..
a) 8 million at least have FREE cell phones.. 1890 NOT EVEN A Millionaire had a cell phone!
b) 40 million getting FREE FOOD ... 1890 millionaires still had to pay!
c) Millions in poverty have TVs,Cars, internet.. things that DIDN"T exist in 1890!

I have known for a long time about this disparity, but I never said the Rich are not paying taxes, they are using the swiss cheese tax code to reduce their tax payment.

Some of the rich can just pass part of their tax liability into us through their businesses, which are NOT figured in your report!

It's no wonder that Trump won't share his taxes....

he doesn't have to.

There is absolutely no Constitutional requirement for any president to make his personal records public

And clearly repubs have lowered the bar enough that they will still vote for him. Man he has lowered the bar. Giant deficits are good. Ok to cheat on your third with with a porn star. Ruling by executive order is good. Lots and lots of golf is good....

For Christ's sake

Democrats only care about deficits and debt when republicans are in office and vice versa

Get your head out of your ass

And yet dems have a much better record. Clinton balanced the budget and bush ruined it. Obama fixed the bush mess and had deficits decreasing and then trump drastically increased them. It's clear your head is up your ass.

Clinton surfed the tech bubble to a one year balanced budget but he still added to the debt.

You need to learn to put things into context.

The tech bubble popped right after Blow Job Billy left office then we got hit with 9\11 and the stupid Iraq war that democrats voted for too.

Open your eyes and learn to see what's actually there and not just the crap you want to see

Yes I have heard all the excuses, they don't change the facts.

you don't deal in facts as is plain to see by your emotional responses to facts.

You don't even know that Congress not the President holds the purse strings so the budget doesn't belong to the President as much as it does to Congress. And when the president has to deal with a Congress of the opposition we tend to get better policy because that is how our system was designed to work.

It was all trump policy. Trump wanted the tax cuts and the military spending. Deficits increased drastically because repubs don't pay for anything.

just like Obama increased deficits just like Clinton did all but for one of 8 years just like Reagan, Carter and Bush1&2 did

JEsus Christ stop pretending one party is some how the paragon of economic virtue and open your eyes

Interestingly enough, Obama instituted less new spending than any president for decades.

and still manged to add almost 9 trillion to the debt

That shows you how reckless the Bush adminstration was.

Maybe but how long can you keep blaming other people for what Obama did?

it doesn't matter which of our to corrupt political parties occupies the White House.

The end results are the same, more debt, more red tape, bigger government more intrusion on our lives.

 

[rightwinger]

Still, we saw a 32% GDP growth in the 3rd quarter and it is expected that the 4th quarter will be ~10%.

NEGATIVE 33% in second quarter
Worst in history

 

[rightwinger]

Because one job working with machines can replace hundreds or thousands of manual labor job. There will be fewer jobs in total and a lot more on welfare. Stop calling it UC, because it's something completely different, as you know by now.

We don't need low wage service jobs and might as well automate them. Capitalism is about boom and bust; your job loss red herring is just that under free market Capitalism.

people won't hire unskilled labor for 15 dollars an hour

If they were paying a reasonable wage, $15 an hour would not be that much

 

[rightwinger]

Why pay an unskilled worker 15 an hour when you can get rid of 4 or 5 of them and automate?

Buisness is already automating at $7.25 an hour

Your threat is shallow. if automation is available, they will use it

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

not at all. raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour will generate around nine times more in federal income tax revenue than our current minimum wage does now.

Do you care to prove that with some actual data?

I used California for State information.

Income Tax Calculator - USA - Salary After Taxes

neuvoo™ 【 Online Salary and Tax Calculator 】 provides your income after tax if you work in USA. We calculate how much your payroll will be after tax deductions in any region. Find your net pay for any salary. Our data is based on 2020 tax tables from USA

neuvoo.com

you do realize you have to show your work don't you?

This is the real world

Taxes are progressive.

The current minimum wage rate generates around 194 dollars in federal income tax revenue. A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates around 1852 dollars in federal income tax revenue; around nine times more in federal income tax revenue.

no it doesn't.

People making Federal MW pay no income tax

People making 15 an hour pay 58 dollars in federal income tax

The tax paid by anyone making 15 or more an hour now does not change so there is no way in hell you get a 900% revenue increase

What information are you using? Show your work. I gave you a website that calculates tax information based on wage rate.

and you didn't show how you got a 900% revenue increase

Income Tax Calculator: 2023-2024 Refund Estimator - NerdWallet

Estimate your federal refund or calculate your potential tax bill. Enter your income, filing status, age, and common deductions and adjustments to learn more.

www.nerdwallet.com

punch in 31200 annual salary claiming 1 dependent and the federal income tax for that person is 58 dollars a year

I used it for 30k with no dependents and got this amount:

Estimated federal taxes $1,914

Claim 1 dependent because you will get a refund if you don't.

You didn't figure that in did you?

I am keeping it simple. I use individual metrics. Means testing is more expensive.

you still have to account for the refund.

a person making 31200 annually ( $15 an hour) has a federal income tax liability of $58 if more is taken out of his paycheck in a year then he gets a refund

Someone making less gets even more refund and costs more in social services.

not really.

Yes, really. The earned income credit and the cost of social services, costs more and generates less of a multiplier than increasing the minimum wage.

the increase of the MW doesn't multiply tax revenue it might make 1 or 2%s of a percent difference so it will be insignificant

Not at all. UC generates a multiplier of two or more; raising the minimum wage must raise it more than that.