Ukraine wants in to NATO

[Flopper]

Actually I have a low opinion of the Ukraine.
Historically they are a combination of the corrupt Polish aristocracy, and the Zaporizhian Cossacks.
They not only sided with Hitler in WWII, but ran the death camps.
In 2012, the World Court also ruled against them for stealing $20 billion of oil and gas from the Russian pipelines. Joining NATO would have been like Soviet nukes in Cuba. Russia had little choice in my opinion.
The Ukraine should have paid their debt by giving up Donetsk and Crimea.
But THEY cut off negotiations instead.
I see little hope for their continued existence anymore.

I agree with a part of your post but not WWII.
The Soviet departure from the Ukraine in WWII followed a scorched earth policy, taking the leadership and those they could use for slave labor or whatever. About 4 million were taken, killing tens of thousands and burring crops and stores of food.

Initially, the Germans were greeted as liberators by some of the Ukrainian populace. However, as starvation continued and the Nazis needed scapegoats for not being unable to follow Hitler's plan, the death camps were opened and the same old scapegoats, Jews and Communist were rounded up and 4 million were killed. 2.2 million Ukrainians were deported to German and other places as slave labor. Gorilla warfare broken out with heavy Ukrainian and Nazi deaths. When the Russians returned to the Ukraine, the weaken Nazi forces were defeated. By that time little remained on Ukraine population in the cities, most had either died in death camps, victims of the Russia and Nazi exit, gorilla warfare or deportations to Germany and other Nazi countries. Some escaped to small villages and towns.

Under the USSR, the Ukraine was repopulated mostly with Russians and repatriated deportees. Ukraine was rebuild with help of the Russians and it become the jewel in the crown of the USSR. Although Ukraine had little voice in their country, there was peace for over 50 years.

Ukraine became the center of the Soviet arms industry and high-tech research. The republic was also turned into a Soviet military outpost in the cold war, a territory crowded by military bases packed with the most up-to-date weapons systems. Parts of country became a resort for top Russian officials and a respite for soldiers and other government officials. It's most likely that Puten spent time in the Ukraine.

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide: The surprise German invasion of the U.S.S.R. began on June 22, 1941. The Soviets, during their hasty retreat, shot their political prisoners and, whenever possible, evacuated personnel, dismantled and removed industrial plants, and conducted a...

www.britannica.com

 

[Rigby5]

I agree with a part of your post but not WWII.
The Soviet departure from the Ukraine in WWII followed a scorched earth policy, taking the leadership and those they could use for slave labor or whatever. About 4 million were taken, killing tens of thousands and burring crops and stores of food.

Initially, the Germans were greeted as liberators by some of the Ukrainian populace. However, as starvation continued and the Nazis needed scapegoats for not being unable to follow Hitler's plan, the death camps were opened and the same old scapegoats, Jews and Communist were rounded up and 4 million were killed. 2.2 million Ukrainians were deported to German and other places as slave labor. Gorilla warfare broken out with heavy Ukrainian and Nazi deaths. When the Russians returned to the Ukraine, the weaken Nazi forces were defeated. By that time little remained on Ukraine population in the cities, most had either died in death camps, victims of the Russia and Nazi exit, gorilla warfare or deportations to Germany and other Nazi countries. Some escaped to small villages and towns.

Under the USSR, the Ukraine was repopulated mostly with Russians and repatriated deportees. Ukraine was rebuild with help of the Russians and it become the jewel in the crown of the USSR. Although Ukraine had little voice in their country, there was peace for over 50 years.

Ukraine became the center of the Soviet arms industry and high-tech research. The republic was also turned into a Soviet military outpost in the cold war, a territory crowded by military bases packed with the most up-to-date weapons systems. Parts of country became a resort for top Russian officials and a respite for soldiers and other government officials. It's most likely that Puten spent time in the Ukraine.

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide: The surprise German invasion of the U.S.S.R. began on June 22, 1941. The Soviets, during their hasty retreat, shot their political prisoners and, whenever possible, evacuated personnel, dismantled and removed industrial plants, and conducted a...

www.britannica.com

Add to that a few additional facts.
Like the Crimea and Donetsk had always been ethnically Russian since 990 AD, and Khrushchev gave them to the Ukraine in some secret deal in 1955.
That the Ukraine was has not yet paid the 2012 ruling against them for stealing oil.
That joining NATO would amount to treason, since they know too much about the Russian weapons systems.
That Russia is too cold and needs the warm agricultural production.
Russia lost 39 million in WWII, so is not going to let that ever happen again.

 

[Flopper]

I agree with a part of your post but not WWII.
The Soviet departure from the Ukraine in WWII followed a scorched earth policy, taking the leadership and those they could use for slave labor or whatever. About 4 million were taken, killing tens of thousands and burring crops and stores of food. This is second time in a decade that Russian starved millions of Ukrainians.

Initially, the Germans were greeted as liberators by some of the Ukrainian populace. However, as starvation continued and the Nazis needed scapegoats for not being unable to follow Hitler's plan, the death camps were opened and the same old scapegoats, Jews and Communist were rounded up and 4 million were killed. 2.2 million Ukrainians were deported to German and other places as slave labor. Gorilla warfare broken out with heavy Ukrainian and Nazi deaths. When the Russians returned to the Ukraine, the weaken Nazi forces were defeated. By that time little remained of the Ukraine population in the cities, most had either died in death camps, victims of the Russia and Nazi exit, gorilla warfare or deportations to Germany and other Nazi countries. Some escaped to small villages and towns.

Under the USSR, the Ukraine was repopulated mostly with Russians and repatriated deportees. Ukraine was rebuild with help of the Russians and it become the jewel in the crown of the USSR. Although Ukraine had little voice in their country, there was peace for over 50 years.

Ukraine became the center of the Soviet arms industry and high-tech research. The republic was also turned into a Soviet military outpost in the cold war, a territory crowded by military bases packed with the most up-to-date weapons systems. Parts of country became a resort for top Russian officials and a respite for soldiers and other government officials. It's most likely that Puten spent time in the Ukraine.

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide

Ukraine - Nazi Occupation, Soviet, Genocide: The surprise German invasion of the U.S.S.R. began on June 22, 1941. The Soviets, during their hasty retreat, shot their political prisoners and, whenever possible, evacuated personnel, dismantled and removed industrial plants, and conducted a...

www.britannica.com

 

[AntonToo]

No, the US is about the most authoritarian country in the world.

 

[georgephillip]

Ukraine is about same size as Afghanistan and their occupation there didn't work to well. Two thirds of the population of Ukraine live in rural areas are small towns. Small cities, towns and villages pepper the plains and mountainous areas with only about half dozen cites with population of over a million.

Retired Colonel Larry Wilkerson believes Putin's invasion of Ukraine could produce similar results to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan:

Ukraine: Russian Crimes, American Hypocrisy - Wilkerson and Jay

"...if Putin really does have something truly heinous in mind for Ukraine, not just solidifying his control over the oblast he already pretty much controls, but really something serious, let him do it. In two years, he’ll be out of power.

"The Russian armed forces will look worse than they looked when they came out of Afghanistan.

"After ten years, the Russian State will be collapsing.

"It will be five times worse than when the Soviet Union collapsed because they have nothing but gas stations.

"They have no economy."

 

[Rigby5]

That is ridiculous.
The US elections are a total fraud, with the worst possible and least popular candidates.
We have the largest and most corrupt military in the world, lying about and invading innocent countries we want to exploit, like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Libya, Syria, etc.
The US has the largest % imprisoned in the world, mostly on illegal charges like drugs.
And the US is also the worst country for health care, having no public option and the highest charges in the world.
The government does not have to jail or censor the press because the press is already totally corrupt and lies constantly.
By any measure, like homelessness, life span, etc., the US is one of the worst countries in the modern world.
The only reason to live in the US is that is where all the money this country steals, ends up, and if you live anywhere else, the US is likely to invade.

 

[Rigby5]

Retired Colonel Larry Wilkerson believes Putin's invasion of Ukraine could produce similar results to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan:

Ukraine: Russian Crimes, American Hypocrisy - Wilkerson and Jay

"...if Putin really does have something truly heinous in mind for Ukraine, not just solidifying his control over the oblast he already pretty much controls, but really something serious, let him do it. In two years, he’ll be out of power.

"The Russian armed forces will look worse than they looked when they came out of Afghanistan.

"After ten years, the Russian State will be collapsing.

"It will be five times worse than when the Soviet Union collapsed because they have nothing but gas stations.

"They have no economy."

Totally disagree.
For example, when you look at the weapons the Ukrainians are using, they are all made in Russia.
Russia has a huge economy, and does not have the inherent waste of capitalist competition.
The Afghans are totally different from the Ukrainians.
The Afghans are honest, fierce, dedicated, and loyal.
The Ukrainians are totally corrupt and dishonest, without unity and easily bribed.
They not only were stealing from Russia, but each other.

 

[AntonToo]

That is ridiculous.
The US elections are a total fraud

YOU are fucking ridiculous and insane, spending your time peddling absolute horseshit on the internets.

We've had a year and half of close scrutity to 2020 election because Trump is not man enough to admit losing at something. The result of all the comotion was overwhelming confirmation that in fact our election are free and fair, without any major fraud.

 

[imawhosure]

To late to let them into NATO now, and them being held up from joining the club was on NATO. It is obvious if you follow politics and world events, NATO knew what Russia was planning for over 6 to 8 months, and no way were they going to war over the Ukraine.

Anyone who said we should not now let them...........which I agree with................should now face the reality of who we should throw out, because more than likely, if they do not have nuclear weapons, Poland is next on the list. If they do have them, then just look for NATO countries around Ukraine that do not, and you will find your next target.

 

[Rigby5]

YOU are fucking ridiculous and insane, spending your time peddling absolute horseshit on the internets.

We've had a year and half of close scrutity to 2020 election because Trump is not man enough to admit losing at something. The result of all the comotion was overwhelming confirmation that in fact our election are free and fair, without any major fraud.

That is stupid.
We are not discussing ballot fraud at all.
We are discussing the fact the 2 corrupt political parties totally control who gets on the ballot, and political parties are not even supposed to exist in any official way.
Are you seriously going to claim that Hillary, Trump, or Biden were remotely the best possible candidates in the entirely country?
They were a joke.
None of them should be trusted even if running for dog catcher.

 

[Rigby5]

To late to let them into NATO now, and them being held up from joining the club was on NATO. It is obvious if you follow politics and world events, NATO knew what Russia was planning for over 6 to 8 months, and no way were they going to war over the Ukraine.

Anyone who said we should not now let them...........which I agree with................should now face the reality of who we should throw out, because more than likely, if they do not have nuclear weapons, Poland is next on the list. If they do have them, then just look for NATO countries around Ukraine that do not, and you will find your next target.

I disagree.
The Ukraine is not like Poland, in that the Ukraine worked on most of the Russian weapons systems, so has too much strategic secrets to ever be allowed into NATO by Russia.
Add to that the only warm water port of Crimea, the $20 billion of oil the Ukraine stole, the abuse of ethic Russians, the fact the Ukraine quit the negotiations, etc., and there is no way to prevent the Russian invasion.
Its all the fault of the Ukraine.

 

[imawhosure]

I disagree.
The Ukraine is not like Poland, in that the Ukraine worked on most of the Russian weapons systems, so has too much strategic secrets to ever be allowed into NATO by Russia.
Add to that the only warm water port of Crimea, the $20 billion of oil the Ukraine stole, the abuse of ethic Russians, the fact the Ukraine quit the negotiations, etc., and there is no way to prevent the Russian invasion.
Its all the fault of the Ukraine.

Your scenario is fine, but does anyone think for an instant, that if they held secrets this long worthwhile, the moment Russia invaded Ukraine, President Zelinsky didn't send any info you might be speaking directly to NATO?

All these arguments are strawman arguments. Pooty wants to reconstitute the USSR. He has admitted as much over, and over, and over again.

I looked up for 5 minutes what I could on Poland, and as far as I read, they have no nukes in their country. With only a 5 minute search of course, I could be wrong. But, if that is accurate, expect Poland to be next.

 

[AntonToo]

That is stupid.
We are not discussing ballot fraud at all.
We are discussing the fact the 2 corrupt political parties totally control who gets on the ballot

More bullshit, in almost all elections there are independent presidential candidates on the ballot.

List of third-party and independent performances in United States presidential elections - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you can raise money and get a number of people to support your campaign you can be on the ballot.

 

[AntonToo]

I disagree.
The Ukraine is not like Poland, in that the Ukraine worked on most of the Russian weapons systems, so has too much strategic secrets to ever be allowed into NATO by Russia.
Add to that the only warm water port of Crimea, the $20 billion of oil the Ukraine stole, the abuse of ethic Russians, the fact the Ukraine quit the negotiations, etc., and there is no way to prevent the Russian invasion.
Its all the fault of the Ukraine.

Yep, Ukraine needs to be sanctioned for starting this war.

 

[Rambunctious]

Ukraine is actively mixing it's combants and civilians in their cities. That's the same premise. No mental gymnastics changes that.

Russia does what everyone has done for thousands of years, break their enemy's will to fight. That is how you end an insurgency before it begins. You might want to check how the US fought when we actually won wars.

You will have to show me proof of your theory.... because its not true....

 

[Rogue AI]

You will have to show me proof of your theory.... because its not true....

Be more specific.

 

[Rambunctious]

Be more specific.

Show me the proof of Ukraine using human shields... because I see none.... I've seen the aftermath of human shields up close... and this isn't that.... not even close.... we here in the USA have the right to own guns... so does that mean any tyrant can target our schools hospitals and apartment buildings?....

 

[georgephillip]

otally disagree.
For example, when you look at the weapons the Ukrainians are using, they are all made in Russia

I think you're missing the 30 year contribution the US and NATO have made to instigating Putin's criminal war of aggression against Ukraine.

Western weapons have been flooding Ukraine for years, and are one of the main rationalizations for Putin's invasion.

NATO floods Ukraine with weapons

"In a global weapons-running program without precedent in post-World War II history, more than 20 countries, including members of NATO and the European Union, are funneling weapons, including anti-aircraft missiles, to Ukraine for use in NATO’s proxy war with Russia.

"'Thousands of anti-tank weapons, hundreds of air-defense missiles and thousands of small arms and ammunition stocks are being sent to Ukraine,' bragged NATO in an official dispatch.

"The United States has been joined by Germany, France, Poland and the UK, as well as the majority of the European Union in sending offensive weapons to Ukraine."

 

[Rigby5]

Your scenario is fine, but does anyone think for an instant, that if they held secrets this long worthwhile, the moment Russia invaded Ukraine, President Zelinsky didn't send any info you might be speaking directly to NATO?

All these arguments are strawman arguments. Pooty wants to reconstitute the USSR. He has admitted as much over, and over, and over again.

I looked up for 5 minutes what I could on Poland, and as far as I read, they have no nukes in their country. With only a 5 minute search of course, I could be wrong. But, if that is accurate, expect Poland to be next.

President Zelinsky is not liked or trusted by most Ukrainians, and Russia carefully distributes its military projects so that it is extremely difficult to collect all the separate research into something coherent.
So currently none of Russia's military secrets are at risk.
But if the Ukraine were to join NATO, it would be a matter of time before than put all the data together.
And Russia is never going to allow that.

Yes, Poland has no nukes, but that is because when we said we were going to, Russia called our bluff by saying they would be instantly targeted with their nukes.
We backed down.
Russia does not want to nuke the Ukraine, so an invasion is much more humane.

 

[Rigby5]

I think you're missing the 30 year contribution the US and NATO have made to instigating Putin's criminal war of aggression against Ukraine.

Western weapons have been flooding Ukraine for years, and are one of the main rationalizations for Putin's invasion.

NATO floods Ukraine with weapons

"In a global weapons-running program without precedent in post-World War II history, more than 20 countries, including members of NATO and the European Union, are funneling weapons, including anti-aircraft missiles, to Ukraine for use in NATO’s proxy war with Russia.

"'Thousands of anti-tank weapons, hundreds of air-defense missiles and thousands of small arms and ammunition stocks are being sent to Ukraine,' bragged NATO in an official dispatch.

"The United States has been joined by Germany, France, Poland and the UK, as well as the majority of the European Union in sending offensive weapons to Ukraine."

None of these western weapons were made in the Ukraine, so have no long term use.
Instead they will just delay the inevitable, resulting in a greater death toll on both sides, as well as a more angry and determined Russia.
The Ukraine not only can not win, but should not win, as the Ukraine is the bad guy in all ways, in this conflict.