Ukraine wants in to NATO

[Flopper]

In 2013, the EU solicited Ukraine to enter into a joint political and economic agreement. This was the first step toward Ukraine joining NATO.

Putin exerted a great deal of economic pressure on his Ukrainian puppet, Victor Yanukovych, to turn down the offer. Yanukovytch submitted to Putin's wishes, and this led to his ouster by the Ukrainian people.

Yanukovych is who Putin now wants to re-install as his puppet in Kyiv. He has been living in Russia since his ouster and is probably packing his bags.

European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If Yanukovych is installed by the Russians, he's going to need Russia military support for sometime. Russian recognition of the Donetsk People's Republic" will significantly reduce pro Russia support in Ukraine. That may turnout to be a big mistake for Putin. Ukraine will certainly be more difficult for Russians to meninge without Donetsk.

 

[Rambunctious]

Are the Russians targeting civilian building? Last I heard Zelenskky mobilized every male between 18-60, armed as many as he could, told to them to shelter in civilian buildings and fight to the last. Looks more like the Ukrainians are using women and children as human shields. Those mobilized folks are enemy combatants now.

Who invaded who?...and who told you they were using women and children as shields?....I see the men dropping them off at the border and retuning to the fight...

 

[Flopper]

They would? We already have a cluster of NATO countries up against Russia and Putin picked the larger Ukraine to go after.

He picked Ukraine because he has always seen them as a part of Russia and now to keep them out of NATO is a necessity. The Ukraine Army would be a significant increase in NATO forces.

Finland has no real desire to join NATO and NATO has no desire to see them join. They bring nothing to the table except an 840 mile border with Russia that they could not possibly defend. It is just not a go match for either Finland or NATO.

 

[HappyJoy]

He picked Ukraine because he has always seen them as a part of Russia and now to keep them out of NATO is a necessity. The Ukraine Army would be significant increase in NATO forces.

Finland has no real desire to join NATO and NATO has no desire to see them join. They bring nothing to table except an 840 mile border with Russia that they could not possibly defend. It is just not a go match for either Finland or NATO.

It appears from recent reporting that there is increased interest in joining NATO.

 

[Flopper]

Maybe. Maybe not. Russian mentality isn't like yours or mine. You never know what might make him go all in. He probably figures his people are better at enduring hardship.

Joining NATO is not a free ticket to protection from Russia. NATO expects a significant contribution to NATO forces one neither Finland nor Sweden have. Their military is more like a US state National Guard used primary for emergencies within the country. Their tiny military forces and their huge vulnerability to attack from Russia would be a major liability for NATO.

There is also the question of whether these countries need protection from Russia now. They certainly would if they joined NATO as that would end their neutrality.

 

[Rogue AI]

Who invaded who?...and who told you they were using women and children as shields?....I see the men dropping them off at the border and retuning to the fight...

Only a fraction of the population has fled. Every building that has both combatants and non-combatants are using human shields. That's on Zelensky. He mobilized them, armed them, then sent them to civilian dwelling with the expectation of fighting. He did not give them uniforms, organize them into units, or quarter them separate from innocent civilians. The intent was to turn the cities into meat grinders that every inch is paid in blood. The Russians have no obligation to do so. Regardless of if they are the aggressor or not.

We do not look kindly on any one else that uses human shields, why is this different? It's sickening to see how fast and easy it is for people to blindly accept double standards and hypocrisy because the media tells them to.

 

[HappyJoy]

Joining NATO is not a free ticket to protection from Russia. NATO expects a significant contribution to NATO forces one neither Finland nor Sweden have. Their military is more like a US state National Guard used primary emergencies within the country. Their tiny military forces and their huge vulnerability to attack from Russia would be major liability for NATO.

There is also the question of whether these countries need protection from Russia.

What is Estonia providing that these other countries couldn't?

 

[bendog]

Joining NATO is not a free ticket to protection from Russia. NATO expects a significant contribution to NATO forces one neither Finland nor Sweden have. Their military is more like a US state National Guard used primary for emergencies within the country. Their tiny military forces and their huge vulnerability to attack from Russia would be a major liability for NATO.

There is also the question of whether these countries need protection from Russia now. They certainly would if they joined NATO as that would end their neutrality.

dunno about the swedes, but Finland has been integrated with Nato for some time. Small but fierce.

Finnish Defence Forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Putin's invasion pretty much puts everything back on the table.

INcluding theatre nukes, unfortunately.

 

[Flopper]

Only a fraction of the population has fled. Every building that has both combatants and non-combatants are using human shields. That's on Zelensky. He mobilized them, armed them, then sent them to civilian dwelling with the expectation of fighting. He did not give them uniforms, organize them into units, or quarter them separate from innocent civilians. The intent was to turn the cities into meat grinders that every inch is paid in blood. The Russians have no obligation to do so. Regardless of if they are the aggressor or not.

We do not look kindly on any one else that uses human shields, why is this different? It's sickening to see how fast and easy it is for people to blindly accept double standards and hypocrisy because the media tells them to.

I think Zelensky, regardless of his claims of winning the war is looking past the eventually fall of the government when soldiers and civilians will rise up again against a Russian puppet government. Involving citizens in the war now is a means to see that the fight continues for years.

 

[Rogue AI]

I think Zelensky, regardless of his claims of winning the war is looking past the eventually fall of the government when soldiers and civilians will rise up again against a Russian puppet government. Involving citizens in the war now is a means to see that the fight continues for years.

Probably why Putin is demanding disarmament as one of his chief objectives. The idea of a protracted insurgency decreases if the population is disarmed. The only way it could happen is if someone started providing arms, which would likely violate whatever legal agreement ends this conflict.

 

[georgephillip]

Ukraine could have joined NATO years ago. Reminds of someone that applies for fire insurance as their home is burning to the ground.

When did a majority of Ukrainians favor joining NATO?

 

[georgephillip]

I think Zelensky, regardless of his claims of winning the war is looking past the eventually fall of the government when soldiers and civilians will rise up again against a Russian puppet government. Involving citizens in the war now is a means to see that the fight continues for years.

How much of Ukraine could Putin reasonably expect to occupy?

 

[Flopper]

What is Estonia providing that these other countries couldn't?

Estonia is far smaller in size, population and economically. Yet it's military contributions meet NATO requirements. In fact, Estonia has been commended for its leadership in defense spending, for contributions to NATO missions and operations, for hosting a multinational NATO battlegroup, and for expertise in cyber defense.

 

[JWBooth]

Question is: Should we?

Oh hell no

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Question is: Should we?

Yes, we should.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

If you want a nuclear war....sure let them into NATO


If you don't want a nuclear war .....don't. As simple as that.

We promised to defend Ukraine from attack, if they surrendered all the nukes in Ukraine. We aren't doing a worth-a-shit job of it. Admit Ukraine to NATO, so we no longer have an excuse to fiddle fuck around.

 

[HappyJoy]

Estonia is far smaller in size, population and economically. Yet it's military contributions meet NATO requirements. In fact, Estonia has been commended for its leadership in defense spending, for contributions to NATO missions and operations, for hosting a multinational NATO battlegroup, and for expertise in cyber defense.

Huh? What are those military contribution requirements? I believe Finland is considered militarily superior to Estonia and according to this link it's not really close. I can't think of a single "requirement" that Finland doesn't meet to join NATO.

Compare Finland vs Estonia War 2022 🛡Military-Firepower - WikiVia

Compare Estonia vs Finland by the military and firepower 🛡. Which country is stronger in 2024?

via.wiki

 

[Flopper]

Probably why Putin is demanding disarmament as one of his chief objectives. The idea of a protracted insurgency decreases if the population is disarmed. The only way it could happen is if someone started providing arms, which would likely violate whatever legal agreement ends this conflict.

It is relatively easy to disarm a defeated army as long as they are organized. However, once defeat is assured, units disband. Once that happens disbarment is difficult. In the Ukraine there is no gun control and it estimated that there are 6 million fire arms in the hands of the public. Since military service has mandatory in the Ukraine for over 15 years, a significant portion of the public are trained soldiers. I would be very surprised if there was not a significant military presence in Ukraine for years to come.

This is what Putin hoped to avoid. It is costly and very unpopular in Russia. Military occupation in Afghanistan was a major factor in leading up to the fall of the USSR. It convince political leaders that military occupation is costly and ineffective.

 

[Rogue AI]

It is relatively easy to disarm a defeated army as long as they are organized. However, once defeat is assured, units disband. Once that happens disbarment is difficult. In the Ukraine there is no gun control and it estimated that there are 6 million fire arms in the hands of the public. Since military service has mandatory in the Ukraine for over 15 years, a significant portion of the public are trained soldiers. I would be very surprised if there was not a significant military presence in Ukraine for years to come.

This is what Putin hoped to avoid. It is costly and very unpopular in Russia. Military occupation in Afghanistan was a major factor in leading up to the fall of the USSR. It convince political leaders that military occupation is costly and ineffective.

Populations have been disarmed before. No doubt there will be no peace until that happens. Much depends on what lines Putin wants to draw. How much will he annex into Russia? I guess we'll see.

 

[The Original Tree]

Question is: Should we?

Watch this video and have your mind blown!