Ukraine wants in to NATO

[Sunni Man]

Great article about the geopolitical gamesmanship of Ukraine and America's role in exacerbating the situation by antagonizing Russia's Putin to take action.

Ukraine’s Deadly Gamble

By tying itself to a reckless and dangerous America, the Ukrainians made a blunder that client states will study for years to come

www.tabletmag.com

 

[Flopper]

Ukraine is/was apart of the NRF as of 2014.

As far as whether Finland has reason or not to join NATO (I think they do), their citizens sure seem to be perking up to the idea.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-02-28/majority-of-finns-now-want-to-join-nato-poll

It appears their leadership will be debating that subject shortly. I could see it going either way but obviously it won't happen over night.

It is unlikely due to it's military policy and internal politics.

 

[HappyJoy]

It is unlikely due to it's military policy and internal politics.

It was probably unlikely due to most Finns not wanting to join NATO, there may be a shift. It's up to them at the moment.

 

[Lesh]

NATO's existence is all about member countries joining together to box in and contain Russia, even if it means war.

The bold part is true.

The last is not.

NATO is defensive. They are a an obstacle to reconstituting the Soviet empire. THAT is the issue

 

[Independent thinker]

Question is: Should we?

No. We shouldn't let someone in on the spur of the moment. The process takes years and they have to prove themselves. Just a few weeks ago they were adamant that they didn't want to be in NATO and they also didn't want Russia telling them they couldn't join. Now, all of a sudden, they want in.

 

[Lesh]

No. We shouldn't let someone in on the spur of the moment. The process takes years and they have to prove themselves. Just a few weeks ago they were adamant that they didn't want to be in NATO and they also didn't want Russia telling them they couldn't join. Now, all of a sudden, they want in.

Who is the "they" you are referring to?

 

[HappyJoy]

No. We shouldn't let someone in on the spur of the moment. The process takes years and they have to prove themselves. Just a few weeks ago they were adamant that they didn't want to be in NATO and they also didn't want Russia telling them they couldn't join. Now, all of a sudden, they want in.

Who is the "they" you are referring to?

I don't know who they are but Independentthinker is breeding 'em like rabbits.

 

[Independent thinker]

Who is the "they" you are referring to?

Ukraine.

 

[Lesh]

Ukraine.

Now, all of a sudden, they want in.

Ukraine wants help against a Russian invasion

I don't recall seeing them asking to join NATO...either prior to or after they were invaded.

Gotta link?

 

[Rogue AI]

You shouldn't have to endure bombardments into civilian areas because you are not a NATO signatory....yes confronting Russia would risk a huge war...but if the free nations of the world could come together and enforce a no-fly zone to defend civilians Russia would rethink their position on targeting civilian dwellings...
I can't guarantee they would back down if we stood up to them but I can guarantee what will happen if he is allowed to proceed...and that could be him eventually invading a member of NATO....with bases all throughout Ukraine....

This is why we should never elect a senile old man ever again....

Are the Russians targeting civilian building? Last I heard Zelenskky mobilized every male between 18-60, armed as many as he could, told to them to shelter in civilian buildings and fight to the last. Looks more like the Ukrainians are using women and children as human shields. Those mobilized folks are enemy combatants now.

 

[Flopper]

Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia itself, Ukraine is the seat of the Russian Orthodox Church, like it or not they are inextricably linked, each to the other and they have been for around 1,000 years! All they had to do, was assure Putin that Nato would never absorb Ukraine, that it was to be a neutral nation, and this war would not have been launched. Its telling, extremely telling, that they refused Russia this reasonable demand!

It was not a Ukraine decision to make. Putin's list of demands were addressed to NATO. In addition no membership for Ukraine, it included NATO's returned of military forces to the pre-1997 status and moving offense weapons off the Russian border which NATO would never agree to.

In my opinion, Putin was planning to invade Ukraine before he even issued those demands. No doubt keeping Ukraine out of NATO was important but of equal important was bringing Ukraine which was a territory of Russia for hundreds years back under Russian control.

It was Ukraine that gave birth to the USSR when Ukrainian Bolsheviks, who had defeated the national government in Kyiv, established the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic which in 1922 became a founding republic of the Soviet Union. To Putin, whose allegiance to the Soviet Union remains to this day looks upon Ukraine as America might look upon one of the 13 founding colonies.

 

[Flopper]

Ukraine wants help against a Russian invasion

I don't recall seeing them asking to join NATO...either prior to or after they were invaded.

Gotta link?

In October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.

At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its future and foreign policy, of course without outside interference.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lesh]

In October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.

At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its future and foreign policy, of course without outside interference.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So Ukraine has not talked about joining NATO since 2014.

OK

 

[Flopper]

It was probably unlikely due to most Finns not wanting to join NATO, there may be a shift. It's up to them at the moment.

It's 840 mile border with Russia and tiny military of about 19,000, mostly reservists would not make them a good candidate for NATO. They would immediately be put in the crosshairs of the Russian military who previous has had little interest in Finland.

 

[Flopper]

So Ukraine has not talked about joining NATO since 2014.

OK

It Ukraine made NATO membership a priority in 2014 and NATO was making plans for admitting them in 2021, obvious they have.

 

[Lesh]

It Ukraine made NATO membership a priority in 2014 and NATO was making plans for admitting them in 2021, obvious they have.

I missed where NATO was making plans for admission in 2021

In fact Article 5 makes that virtually impossible considering the fact that Ukraine was engaged with a war with Russia (in Donbas) all that time and it would require a military response immediately

 

[g5000]

Question is: Should we?

Some amazing things have resulted from KGB Putin's invasion.

Ukraine has applied to join the EU.

Belarus has become a nuclear state.

Germany has chosen to re-arm.

Finland and Sweden have indicated they are interested in joining NATO, which would bring about Putin's greatest fear of NATO bineg right on Russia's doorstep, his whole excuse for invading Ukraine!

 

[bendog]

Question is: Should we?

yeah, when a pack of rabid pit bulls is chasing your poor ass, don't come knocking on my door. LOL

 

[ding]

Question is: Should we?

Only if the US and Europe are willing to go to war over Ukraine. Which given their reluctance to fly supply planes over Ukraine they don't appear to be.

 

[bendog]

Some amazing things have resulted from KGB Putin's invasion.

Ukraine has applied to join the EU.

Belarus has become a nuclear state.

Germany has chosen to re-arm.

Finland and Sweden have indicated they are interested in joining NATO, which would bring about Putin's greatest fear of NATO bineg right on Russia's doorstep, his whole excuse for invading Ukraine!

Maybe they've seen the Russian Army's performance, and suddenly the possibility of Nato becomming an offensive force makes the thought of avenging past wrongs tantalizingly attractive. (_: