Ukraine wants in to NATO

[airplanemechanic]

Look retards.

Article 5 would preclude a nation already engaged in war from joining.

Stupid thread started by a stupid person

Link?

 

[Lesh]

I think you're missing the 30 year contribution the US and NATO have made to instigating Putin's criminal war of aggression against Ukraine.

Western weapons have been flooding Ukraine for years, and are one of the main rationalizations for Putin's invasion.

NATO floods Ukraine with weapons

"In a global weapons-running program without precedent in post-World War II history, more than 20 countries, including members of NATO and the European Union, are funneling weapons, including anti-aircraft missiles, to Ukraine for use in NATO’s proxy war with Russia.

"'Thousands of anti-tank weapons, hundreds of air-defense missiles and thousands of small arms and ammunition stocks are being sent to Ukraine,' bragged NATO in an official dispatch.

"The United States has been joined by Germany, France, Poland and the UK, as well as the majority of the European Union in sending offensive weapons to Ukraine."

Ya know what else has been flooding into Ukraine?

Russian troops

 

[Lesh]

The Ukraine not only can not win, but should not win, as the Ukraine is the bad guy in all ways, in this conflict.

Says Putler

 

[imawhosure]

President Zelinsky is not liked or trusted by most Ukrainians, and Russia carefully distributes its military projects so that it is extremely difficult to collect all the separate research into something coherent.
So currently none of Russia's military secrets are at risk.
But if the Ukraine were to join NATO, it would be a matter of time before than put all the data together.
And Russia is never going to allow that.

Yes, Poland has no nukes, but that is because when we said we were going to, Russia called our bluff by saying they would be instantly targeted with their nukes.
We backed down.
Russia does not want to nuke the Ukraine, so an invasion is much more humane.

Really like your take on humane! Either way, people die thnx to Russian aggression. If this is the way you believe that world politics should be handled, I have no problem. The only question I have is----------->how will you react, when the world destroys the Russian ability to business?

Not a word, not one word I hope! Because the Russian gas station, is going down quickly, if you take world events timeline in context. Within 24 months, if not sooner, all Vlad the Impaler is going to have, is a 5 and dime store! Book it!

 

[Flopper]

That is stupid.
We are not discussing ballot fraud at all.
We are discussing the fact the 2 corrupt political parties totally control who gets on the ballot, and political parties are not even supposed to exist in any official way.
Are you seriously going to claim that Hillary, Trump, or Biden were remotely the best possible candidates in the entirely country?
They were a joke.
None of them should be trusted even if running for dog catcher.

Your scenario is fine, but does anyone think for an instant, that if they held secrets this long worthwhile, the moment Russia invaded Ukraine, President Zelinsky didn't send any info you might be speaking directly to NATO?

All these arguments are strawman arguments. Pooty wants to reconstitute the USSR. He has admitted as much over, and over, and over again.

I looked up for 5 minutes what I could on Poland, and as far as I read, they have no nukes in their country. With only a 5 minute search of course, I could be wrong. But, if that is accurate, expect Poland to be next.

In 2021, it is estimated that there are 100 U.S.-owned nuclear weapons stored in five NATO member states across six bases: Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Büchel Air Base in Germany, Aviano and Ghedi Air Bases in Italy, Volkel Air Base in the Netherlands, and Incirlik in Turkey.

I think you are correct in your assessment of Putin. He certainly wants to build a new version of the USSR but the reality is the 21st century is far different than 20th century. The greatest prizes are not in in Central Asia but Eastern Europe. After he takes Ukraine, the NATO wall keeps him from expanding to north. Also, Russia has real problems expanding it's influence beyond border countries simple because it does not have the wealth of the US to promote strong ties.

In the 20th century, Russia had a very strong alley in China principally because both countries were committed to Communism and militarism. Today Russia seek to increase it's influence through it's military power and China through it's economic power. The two clashed with the Russian invasion of Ukraine because it creates international economic instability and that is not good forChina.

So where will Putin attack after Ukraine. It's a pretty good bet, that he will not cross the line into NATO countries which would mean fighting the US. He could easily annex Belarus but there wouldn't be much point in it. They are strong allies. Moldova is a possibility as it is landlocked and borders Ukraine and not in NATO. The problem with a second invasion on any non-aliened European country is it will sends other nations seeking the the shelter of NATO.

Central Asia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan are members CSTO, a security organization so attacking one would likely mean a larger war. These basically undeveloped Muslim countries could be more of a liability than an asset.

In short, I think Putin certain wants a new USSR but there is huge gulf between wanting and having. The more likely outcome is 1 or 2 more puppets governments rather a formal organization such as the USSR.

 

[AntonToo]

President Zelinsky is not liked or trusted by most Ukrainians

When are going to stop posting counterfactual bullshit?

How President Zelensky’s approval ratings have surged

More than 90 per cent of Ukrainians approve of their leader, compared with just 31 per cent before the Russian invasion.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[Aldo Raine]

You shouldn't have to endure bombardments into civilian areas because you are not a NATO signatory....yes confronting Russia would risk a huge war...but if the free nations of the world could come together and enforce a no-fly zone to defend civilians Russia would rethink their position on targeting civilian dwellings...
I can't guarantee they would back down if we stood up to them but I can guarantee what will happen if he is allowed to proceed...and that could be him eventually invading a member of NATO....with bases all throughout Ukraine....

This is why we should never elect a senile old man ever again....

Agreed, thank god he got voted out November 3rd, 2020!
MAGA

 

[22lcidw]

YOU are fucking ridiculous and insane, spending your time peddling absolute horseshit on the internets.

We've had a year and half of close scrutity to 2020 election because Trump is not man enough to admit losing at something. The result of all the comotion was overwhelming confirmation that in fact our election are free and fair, without any major fraud.

We had 4 years with a mission by the elites to destroy Trump. Still are. We are in a bad way now with prices rising. And an uncaring political party to get out of the way so people can live better. Worrying about Ukraine and shitting on its own citizens.

 

[AntonToo]

We had 4 years with a mission by the elites to destroy Trump. Still are.

Cool story bro, what does it have to do with what you quoted?

 

[MisterBeale]

Secondary side question: Why does Russia fear NATO so much? Is that oligarchy old school ex Soviet leader of the KGB Putin afraid of something?

NATO does not serve, just a "peace keeping and defensive role," it serves as an invasion force for the international bankers and the NWO globalists, it has SHOWN, it has no problem acting offensively, for the world's leaders who would then create political regimes and determine political policy for the planet. . . . cui bono?

Kosovo War​

". . . The NATO bombing campaign lasted from 24 March to 11 June 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships, and submarines. With the exception of Greece, all NATO members were involved to some degree. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions. For the German Air Force (Luftwaffe), it was the second time it had participated in a conflict since World War II, after the Bosnian War.

The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That is, Yugoslav troops would have to leave Kosovo and be replaced by international peacekeepers to ensure that the Albanian refugees could return to their homes. The campaign was initially designed to destroy Yugoslav air defences and high-value military targets. It did not go very well at first, with bad weather hindering many sorties early on. NATO had seriously underestimated Milošević's will to resist: few in Brussels thought that the campaign would last more than a few days, and although the initial bombardment was not insignificant, it did not match the intensity of the bombing of Baghdad in 1991.

NATO military operations switched increasingly to attacking Yugoslav units on the ground, hitting targets as small as individual tanks and artillery pieces, as well as continuing with the strategic bombardment. This activity was heavily constrained by politics, as each target needed to be approved by all nineteen member states. Montenegro was bombed on several occasions, but NATO eventually desisted to prop up the precarious position of its anti-Milošević leader, Milo Đukanović.. . . "

Kosovo War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)​

On 29 May 2006 a US military truck that was part of a convoy in Kabul lost control and plowed into civilian vehicles, killing one person and injuring six. The surrounding crowd got angry and a riot arose, lasting all day ending with 20 dead and 160 injured. When stone-throwing and gunfire had come from a crowd of some 400 men, the US troops had used their weapons "to defend themselves" while leaving the scene, a US military spokesman said. A correspondent for the Financial Times in Kabul suggested that this was the outbreak of "a ground swell of resentment" and "growing hostility to foreigners" that had been growing and building since 2004.[192][193]

UK actions in early 2007 included Operation Volcano, Operation Achilles, and Operation Lastay Kulang. The UK Ministry of Defence also announced its intention to bring British troop levels in the country up to 7,700.[194]

On 4 March 2007, US Marines killed at least 12 civilians and injured 33 in Shinwar district, Nangarhar,[195] in a response to a bomb ambush. The event became known as the "Shinwar massacre".[196] The 120 member Marine unit responsible for the attack were ordered to leave the country because the incident damaged the unit's relations with the local population.[197]

During the summer, NATO forces achieved tactical victories at the Battle of Chora in Orūzgān, where Dutch and Australian ISAF forces were deployed.

The Battle of Musa Qala took place in December. Afghan units were the principal fighting force, supported by British forces.[198] Taliban forces were forced out of the town.

On 13 June 2008, Taliban fighters demonstrated their ongoing strength, liberating all prisoners in Kandahar jail. The operation freed 1200 prisoners, 400 of whom were Taliban, causing a major embarrassment for NATO.[199] By the end of 2008, the Taliban apparently had severed remaining ties with al-Qaeda.[200] According to senior US military intelligence officials, perhaps fewer than 100 members of al-Qaeda remained in Afghanistan.[201]

June 2009 brought Operation Strike of the Sword in Helmand.[202] It followed a British-led operation named Operation Panther's Claw in the same region, which was aimed to secure various canal and river crossings to establish a long-term ISAF presence.[203]

On 4 September 2009, during the Kunduz Province Campaign a devastating NATO air raid was conducted 7 kilometers southwest of Kunduz where Taliban fighters had hijacked civilian supply trucks, killing up to 179 people, including over 100 civilians.[204]

In December 2009, an attack on Forward Operating Base Chapman, used by the CIA to gather information and to coordinate drone attacks against Taliban leaders, killed eight working for the CIA.[205]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021)#2006%E2%80%932009:_Escalating_war_and_NATO_build-up

Libyan Civil War​

". . From the beginning of the intervention, the coalition of Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Norway, Qatar, Spain, UK and US[291][292][293][294][295] expanded to 17 states. Newer states mostly enforced the no-fly zone and naval blockade or provided military logistical assistance. The effort was initially largely led by the United States.[286] NATO took control of the arms embargo on 23 March, named Operation Unified Protector. An attempt to unify the military command of the air campaign (while keeping political and strategic control with a small group), first failed due to objections by the French, German, and Turkish governments.[296][297] On 24 March, NATO agreed to take control of the no-fly zone, while command of targeting ground units remained with coalition forces.[298]

In May 2011, when Gaddafi's forces were still fighting, and the result of the civil war was still uncertain, Putin and Dmitri Medvedev's Russian government recognized the National Transitional Council (NTC) of Libya as a legitimate dialogue partner.[299] On 9 June 2011, some negotiators from NTC arrived in Beijing to have negotiations with the Chinese government.[300]

In June 2011, Muammar Gaddafi and his son Saif al-Islam announced that they were willing to hold elections and that Gaddafi would step aside if he lost. Saif al-Islam stated that the elections could be held within three months and transparency would be guaranteed through international observers. NATO and the rebels rejected the offer, and NATO soon resumed bombardment of Tripoli.[301][302]

In July 2011, Saif al-Islam accused NATO of bombing Libyan civilians, including his family members and their children, under the false pretence that their homes were military bases. He also stated that NATO offered to drop the ICC charges against him and his father if they accept a secret deal, an offer they rejected. He thus criticized the ICC as "a fake court" that is controlled by the NATO nations.. . . "

First Libyan Civil War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyone that actually tries to put forward the claim that NATO and the western powers aren't a thread to Russian, her allies their culture and their traditions? Especially after watching them put the economic squeeze on them? Certainly hasn't been paying attention to world affairs or how things work today. . . The west fully intends to conquer and completely integrate every last nation on Earth into a global technocracy.

 

[georgephillip]

The Ukraine not only can not win, but should not win, as the Ukraine is the bad guy in all ways, in this conflict.

I don't think it's fair to blame the majority of Ukrainian (or Russian) people for the current events in that part of the world.

The US and its European puppets have been instigating violence in Ukraine since Harry Truman was in the White House:

MARCH 4, 2022

“Let Them Kill as Many as Possible”: United States Policy Toward Russia and its Neighbors​

BY BRIAN TERRELL

"A February 25 op-ed in The Los Angeles Times by Jeff Rogg, 'The CIA has backed Ukrainian insurgents before- Let’s learn from those mistakes,' cites a CIA program to train Ukrainian nationalists as insurgents to fight the Russians that began in 2015 and compares it with a similar effort by Truman’s CIA in Ukraine that began in 1949.

"By 1950, one year in, 'U.S. officers involved in the program knew they were fighting a losing battle…In the first U.S.-backed insurgency, according to top secret documents later declassified, American officials intended to use the Ukrainians as a proxy force to bleed the Soviet Union.'

"This op-ed cites John Ranelagh, a historian of the CIA, who argued that the program 'demonstrated a cold ruthlessness' because the Ukrainian resistance had no hope of success, and so 'America was in effect encouraging Ukrainians to go to their deaths.'"

 

[Thunderbird]

So the Ukrainians are cannon fodder in a war that does not serve US interests.

Who exactly is benefiting from this war?

 

[struth]

They should be allowed to join or seek to join any alliance they want without being threatened by a foreign power

 

[georgephillip]

Ya know what else has been flooding into Ukraine?

Russian troops

Why is that?

Does your answer incorporate CIA actions in Ukraine since 1949 that were (are) designed to kill as many Russians as possible regardless of the cost to Ukrainian civilians?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/23/deadly-devious-intelligence-war-unfolds-ukraine/

"Drawing on a CIA internal history, Evan Thomas describes in his book 'The Very Best Men' how the CIA parachuted operatives into Ukraine’s Carpathian Mountains, starting in 1949. 'These were hopeless missions; the Kremlin’s highly efficient security services rounded up the infiltrators as they crushed the resistance movements,' Thomas writes.

"He quotes a CIA officer involved in the operation who describes it as 'a horrible mistake.'

 

[Thunderbird]

They should be allowed to join or seek to join any alliance they want without being threatened by a foreign power

Please remember this statement as you and hundreds of millions die in WW III.

 

[georgephillip]

They should be allowed to join or seek to join any alliance they want without being threatened by a foreign power

Even if their levels of corruption and the frozen conflict in the Donbass makes Ukraine ineligible for NATO membership?

Adding Ukraine to NATO weakens the overall alliance instead of strengthening it unless you're one of those who believes it's possible to win a nuclear war.

Map of War in Donbass, Ukraine with numerical Superiority of Russian Tanks

 

[Thunderbird]

Another Biden disaster.

The West Could Have Prevented The Russo-Ukrainian War, But Didn't

President Biden and our European allies closed every off-ramp for Russia while misleading Ukraine into thinking we would defend it.

thefederalist.com

 

[MisterBeale]

They should be allowed to join or seek to join any alliance they want without being threatened by a foreign power

For thirteen days, October 16 – 28, 1962, the U.S. and Soviet Union faced each other down in a confrontation that would be the closest the world came to nuclear annihilation during the Cold War. Why wasn't Cuba allowed to pursue an alliance without the interference of the United States, and the world subjected to possible annihilation?

It seems, your ideas are completely influenced by the place you belong to, whom rules over you, and the TEE VEE you watch. Having double standards doesn't seem to be a problem for you at all. . . does it?

Or. . . was JFK wrong with his actions back then?

 

[MisterBeale]

Please remember this statement as you and hundreds of millions die in WW III.

The neo-cons, and neo-liberals, all over this board, and all over Washington D.C., had all lost their ever loving minds. . . IMO.

ROBERT PARRY: Playing Nuclear Chicken Over Ukraine​

ROBERT PARRY: Playing Nuclear Chicken Over Ukraine

With U.S.-Russia tension boiling over after Russia entered Ukraine's 8-year civil war and on Sunday put its nuclear arsenal on alert, we reprint this dire warning from Robert Parry in March 2015. A version of this article first appeared on March 2, 2015. By Robert Parry Special to Consor

consortiumnews.com

 

[Thunderbird]

Xi Jin Ping and the CCP will celebrate as hundreds of millions in W Europe, Ukraine, Russia, and North America die in WW III.