Ukrainians Identity with Americans, not Russians

[Toro]

That’s a bit of a surprise but maybe shouldn’t be

 

[JoeB131]

Okay.

Still not worth going to war over..

 

[Votto]

Okay.

Still not worth going to war over..

So what is worth going to war over?

 

[JoeB131]

So what is worth going to war over?

Actually attacks on the US or countries we have treaties with.

Thanks for asking.

 

[JGalt]

Actually attacks on the US or countries we have treaties with.

Thanks for asking.

Ukraine has had a partnership with NATO since 1992. But they haven't been allowed to become members NATO because of the corruption there prior to Zelensky's election in 2019. Up until then, Ukraine was involved in all kinds of corruption, including that involving then Vice President Biden. Remember the Burisma affair? That was viewed as "theft" from Ukraine.

But being a NATO partner, Ukraine should be allowed some protection by NATO.

What's NATO, and why does Ukraine want to join?

 

[JoeB131]

Ukraine has had a partnership with NATO since 1992. But they haven't been allowed to become members NATO because of the corruption there prior to Zelensky's election in 2019. Up until then, Ukraine was involved in all kinds of corruption, including that involving then Vice President Biden. Remember the Burisma affair? That was viewed as "theft" from Ukraine.

You live in our own little world.

Zelensky is just as corrupt as the guys who proceeded him, and the Ukraine is not a NATO member, nor should it ever be.

 

[JGalt]

You live in our own little world.

Zelensky is just as corrupt as the guys who proceeded him, and the Ukraine is not a NATO member, nor should it ever be.

You'll eat those words soon, Russian lover. Zelensky has applied for EU membership. I bet he gets it, and it's only a hop, skip, and a jump until they get full NATO membership.

 

[ESay]

You'll eat those words soon, Russian lover. Zelensky has applied for EU membership. I bet he gets it, and it's only a hop, skip, and a jump until they get full NATO membership.

Well, I don't know how soon this EU membership can come. Obviously, it is not a fast procedure. But if Ukraine gets a candidate status and some guarantees of the EU membership, along with its neutral status, I think that many West-leaning Ukrainians like myself will support that.

Of course, I fully support a NATO membership also, but I try to be realistic and distance from 'hawkish" positions.

 

[JoeB131]

You'll eat those words soon, Russian lover. Zelensky has applied for EU membership. I bet he gets it, and it's only a hop, skip, and a jump until they get full NATO membership.

Actually, I doubt he'll get either or will be in power in a couple of weeks.

When this is over, people are going to look long and hard at the Comedian and realize he should never have led the country as badly as he has.

Well, I don't know how soon this EU membership can come. Obviously, it is not a fast procedure. But if Ukraine gets a candidate status and some guarantees of the EU membership, along with its neutral status, I think that many West-leaning Ukrainians like myself will support that.

Of course, I fully support a NATO membership also, but I try to be realistic and distance from 'hawkish" positions.

Actually, NATO membership would be an awful idea. One of the reasons why Russia is acting so badly is because in the last two centuries, it's been invaded FOUR TIMES from the West (the Napoleonic, Crimean, and World Wars). By incorporating not only the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO, but some of the former Soviet Republics, we are making the Russians kind of nervous.

Wasn't it just a few years ago the Right Wing was condemning the EU and thought Brexit was the greatest thing ever?

 

[ESay]

Actually, NATO membership would be an awful idea. One of the reasons why Russia is acting so badly is because in the last two centuries, it's been invaded FOUR TIMES from the West (the Napoleonic, Crimean, and World Wars). By incorporating not only the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO, but some of the former Soviet Republics, we are making the Russians kind of nervous.

Wasn't it just a few years ago the Right Wing was condemning the EU and thought Brexit was the greatest thing ever?

I think that Ukraine wouldn't get a NATO membership at all, because some European countries were quite wary about Russia and didn't want to worsen relations with it. Maybe now the things a bit changed. But that doesn't matter now.

Russia feels threatened? Russian rulers were always ready to cut a piece from European pie. It is not only about Ukraine. I think you have heard the Russian demands in December. And? Bow down to them?

 

[JoeB131]

I think that Ukraine wouldn't get a NATO membership at all, because some European countries were quite wary about Russia and didn't want to worsen relations with it. Maybe now the things a bit changed. But that doesn't matter now.

Russia feels threatened? Russian rulers were always ready to cut a piece from European pie. It is not only about Ukraine. I think you have heard the Russian demands in December. And? Bow down to them?

Here's the thing. NOthing Russia was asking for in December was unreasonable.

Ukraine shouldn't join NATO? Pretty reasonable. If China stationed a few divisions of the People's Liberation Army in Mexico, we'd be throwing a shit-fit, too.

The Russian territories in Ukraine should join Russia? That's not unreasonable, either.

Russia's concerns are legitimate. Her actions are completely unacceptable.

 

[ESay]

Here's the thing. NOthing Russia was asking for in December was unreasonable.

Ukraine shouldn't join NATO? Pretty reasonable. If China stationed a few divisions of the People's Liberation Army in Mexico, we'd be throwing a shit-fit, too.

The Russian territories in Ukraine should join Russia? That's not unreasonable, either.

Russia's concerns are legitimate. Her actions are completely unacceptable.

First of all, Russia made a demand that all military infrastructure be removed behind 1997 year's lines. You understand what that means, right? That means that all East European NATO members would be remained exposed to a Russia threat. What is the use of such an alliance if a potential rivalry can dictate the defence strategy.

I am also pretty sure that Russia not only wanted Ukraine to have a neutral status, but it remaining in Russia sphere of influence. They tried to do it by implementing the Minsk agreements on Moscow's terms.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

You live in our own little world.

Zelensky is just as corrupt as the guys who proceeded him, and the Ukraine is not a NATO member, nor should it ever be.

Ukraine will be part of NATO sooner than later and will be admitted into the E.U., so your boy Pootin will be very upset when this happens…

 

[AMart]

Yes the USA has had such a strong bond with Ukraine over the decades so much in common lol. I saw 2 billboards on I-71 and I-75 in Cincy today "United we Stand with Ukraine" with their colors. My Senator Rob Portman said a couple of days ago we have not been this united since 9/11 ruh roh.

 

[Toro]

Actually, I doubt he'll get either or will be in power in a couple of weeks.

When this is over, people are going to look long and hard at the Comedian and realize he should never have led the country as badly as he has.



Actually, NATO membership would be an awful idea. One of the reasons why Russia is acting so badly is because in the last two centuries, it's been invaded FOUR TIMES from the West (the Napoleonic, Crimean, and World Wars). By incorporating not only the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO, but some of the former Soviet Republics, we are making the Russians kind of nervous.

Wasn't it just a few years ago the Right Wing was condemning the EU and thought Brexit was the greatest thing ever?

The Crimean War began with Tsar Nicholas first invading modern day Romania. Russia attacked Germany first in WWI.

Your Mexico China analogy fails. The Ukrainians have the right to decide their own destiny. They have suffered heavily under Russian rule. They know their history. And Russia today is not a place anyone aspires to. It’s a rotten kleptocracy.

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Devils_Advocate]

Actually, I doubt he'll get either or will be in power in a couple of weeks.

When this is over, people are going to look long and hard at the Comedian and realize he should never have led the country as badly as he has.



Actually, NATO membership would be an awful idea. One of the reasons why Russia is acting so badly is because in the last two centuries, it's been invaded FOUR TIMES from the West (the Napoleonic, Crimean, and World Wars). By incorporating not only the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO, but some of the former Soviet Republics, we are making the Russians kind of nervous.

Wasn't it just a few years ago the Right Wing was condemning the EU and thought Brexit was the greatest thing ever?

It is the E.U. choice to let the Ukraine in and not yours and as for NATO and upsetting your boy Pootin, well I do not care because Pootin has already made it clear Finland and Sweden are targets and he want Poland back!

 

[Rogue AI]

Actually, I doubt he'll get either or will be in power in a couple of weeks.

When this is over, people are going to look long and hard at the Comedian and realize he should never have led the country as badly as he has.



Actually, NATO membership would be an awful idea. One of the reasons why Russia is acting so badly is because in the last two centuries, it's been invaded FOUR TIMES from the West (the Napoleonic, Crimean, and World Wars). By incorporating not only the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO, but some of the former Soviet Republics, we are making the Russians kind of nervous.

Wasn't it just a few years ago the Right Wing was condemning the EU and thought Brexit was the greatest thing ever?

Some of us still do condemn NATO and attempting to drag America into Eurotrash problems. I could care less about the EU, that's their business. Now we are supposed to blindly support Ukraine, because we are told to, not because it's actually in our national interest.

 

[JoeB131]

First of all, Russia made a demand that all military infrastructure be removed behind 1997 year's lines. You understand what that means, right? That means that all East European NATO members would be remained exposed to a Russia threat. What is the use of such an alliance if a potential rivalry can dictate the defence strategy.

Well, given that the Russian Army has hardly covered itself in glory, I don't think they have a lot to worry about. In any event, I was limiting the discussion to just the dispute between Ukraine and Russia, not Russia and NATO/EU.

The things Russia wants AREN'T unreasonable. Stop cutting off water to the Crimean, negotiate in good faith on Russians in Ukraine, and don't let NATO expand to the Ukraine. None of these things are really unreasonable.

I am also pretty sure that Russia not only wanted Ukraine to have a neutral status, but it remaining in Russia sphere of influence. They tried to do it by implementing the Minsk agreements on Moscow's terms.

Yes, they did. Not seeing a problem with that. Again, we'd be throwing a fit if China stationed troops in Mexico.

Ukraine will be part of NATO sooner than later and will be admitted into the E.U., so your boy Pootin will be very upset when this happens…

Nope, he's Trump's boy. I would like to see Putin humiliated... However, I also don't want to see a nuclear war. So if you give me a choice between nuclear war and throwing the Ukraine under the bus, then the Ukraine is getting thrown under the bus.

The Crimean War began with Tsar Nicholas first invading modern day Romania. Russia attacked Germany first in WWI.

Your Mexico China analogy fails. The Ukrainians have the right to decide their own destiny. They have suffered heavily under Russian rule. They know their history. And Russia today is not a place anyone aspires to. It’s a rotten kleptocracy.

I think you could find alternative interpretations of Russias past wars with the west. Point was, the West invaded, Russia suffered. Did leaders make mistakes to cause that to happen? yes.

Okay, let's look at that. Mexico has a communist revolution and invites the Chinese in. They can make an equally good claim to have suffered heavily from American policy. (A Mexican saying "Mexico -so far from God, so close to the United States") We would be upset, just like the Russians are upset at the thought of NATO on their doorstep.

It is the E.U. choice to let the Ukraine in and not yours and as for NATO and upsetting your boy Pootin, well I do not care because Pootin has already made it clear Finland and Sweden are targets and he want Poland back!

Don't read too much into Putin's posturing.

Some of us still do condemn NATO and attempting to drag America into Eurotrash problems. I could care less about the EU, that's their business. Now we are supposed to blindly support Ukraine, because we are told to, not because it's actually in our national interest.

Except protecting the sovereignty of nations is in our interest.

Again, Russia has some legitimate issues with the Ukraine, but they've gone about them entirely the wrong way. Kind of like Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait.