Unfettered Capitalism Fails

[owebo]

Ok, and....

So you create the Frankenstein and walk away pretending you had no culpability?

Typical.

Whether I walk away or not or whether it is typical or not...even if I created a monster as you said...whether or not I have culpability or not or 5 foot five or have black shoes on today or drive a car or not does not matter at all...all that matters is weather or not the truth has been told and realized by thinking people.
And I know how corporations are formed. I had one. An LLC.

The fall out from the massive debt created to avoid economic down turns will make someone who is crashing from a heroin addiction of 10 years look like a walk in the park.

It will be catastrophic.

Yes. Epic.
There is no possible bailout but it is legal for the banks to take your savings and retirement now. The result from the 553tusd bubble will be the last failure of capitalism as we see it now.

I think this has been the plan all along. Destroy the system and replace it with a world wide centralized system.

Men such as Hitler and Stalin and Moa have dreamed of such a system. We have never been closer than we are today.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. We had no government regulatory agencies. No government built infrastructure. No government subsidies. No Medicare. No welfare. And very few government schools

seriously who brainwashed you?

No one brainwashed me. That's why I know the facts and not some pinko version of American history. Can you name an example of government built infrastructure prior to 1914?

who do you think built the infrastructure? actually first of all ....what do you think infrastructure even is?

Private companies built the infrastructure, moron. Who do you think built the railroads?

First Transcontinental Railroad - Wikipedia

One example, and it went bankrupt. It was a huge cesspool of corruption, fraud and waste.

 

[EverCurious]

Tehon yep and CHINA decides all the rules - http://www.wfoe.org/doc/Catalogue_for_the_Guidance_of_Foreign_Investment_Industries.pdf Start at page 19 and see all the things that US [foreign] manufacturers cannot do in China - vs the only thing we clamped down on China bringing in was farming.

Pay special attention to the ones that say "(Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares) and (limited to equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures) because that's the part I was talking about, where companies /have/ to manufacturer in China or they can't get into the China market.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

Sorry but t U.S. Economy
Stock Market Crash of 2008

Follow the Timeline to Understand Why It Crashed

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A trader gestures as he works on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange September 29, 2008 in New York City. U.S. stocks took a nosedive in reaction to the global credit crisis and as the U.S. House of Representatives rejected the $700 billion rescue package, 228-205. Dow Jones Industrials fell as much as 700 points in midday trading. Photo by Spencer Platt/Getty Images​

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By Kimberly Amadeo
Updated September 08, 2016
The stock market crash of 2008 occurred on September 29. The stock market, as represented by the Dow Jones Industrial Average, fell 777.68 points in intra-day trading. That was the largest point drop in any single day in history. It was because Congress rejected the bank bailout bill. But the crash had been building for a long time.
The Dow hit its pre-recession, all-time high on October 9, 2007, closing at 14,164.43.
Less than 18 months later, it had dropped more than 50% to 6,594.44 on March 5, 2009. That wasn't the largest decline in history. During the Great Depression, the stock market took a 90% hit. But this fall was more vicious. It took only 18 months, compared to three years during the Depression. What caused the crash? Follow this timeline below to understand exactly how it happened.
2007

The Dow opened the year at 12,459.54. It rose fairly steadily throughout most of the year, despite concerns about a slowdown in the over-heated housing market. In fact, there had been warning signals as early as 2006 that the housing market was starting to falter. The Commerce Department warned on November 17, 2006, that October's new home permits were a whopping 28% below the October 2005 rate. Housing prices were falling in 2006, triggering the default of subprime mortgages. But government officials didn't think the housing slowdown would affect the rest of the economy.
By August 2007, the Federal Reserve recognized that banks had a liquidity problem. It began adding liquidity by selling its reserves of Treasuries and accepted subprime mortgages from the banks as collateral. Shortly after the Dow hit its peak, some economists warned about the potential general impact of widespread use of collateralized debt obligations and other derivatives.
By late November, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson launched a bank-funded Superfund to purchase toxic debt. However, as the year drew to a close, the BEA revised its estimate of third-quarter GDP growth, (Gross Domestic Product) up to a phenomenal 4.9%. It seemed the healthy U.S. economy could shrug off a housing downturn, and financial market liquidity constraints, as 2007 drew to a close. The Dow ended the year just slightly off its October high, at 13,264.82.
2008

By the end of January, the BEA announced that GDP growth was a paltry .6% for the fourth quarter of 2007. The economy lost 17,000 jobs, the first time since 2004. The Dow shrugged off the news, and hovered between 12,000-13,000 until March. On March 17, the Federal Reserve intervened to save the failing investment bank Bear Stearns, the first casualty of the subprime mortgage crisis. The Dow dropped to an intra-day low of 11,650.44 but seemed to recover. In fact, many thought the Bear Stearns rescue would keep markets from sliding below 20% of the October high, and avoid a bear market.
By May, the Dow rose above 13,000 again and it seemed the worst was behind us.
In July 2008, the subprime mortgage crisis had spread to government sponsored agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, requiring a government bailout. The Treasury Department guaranteed $25 billion in their loans and bought shares of Fannie's and Freddie's stock. The FHA to guaranteed $300 billion in new loans. The Dow closed on July 15 at 10,962.54. It rebounded above 11,000 for the rest of the summer.
September 2008

The month started with chilling news. On Monday, September 15, 2008, Lehman Brothers declared bankruptcy. The Dow dropped 504.48 points.
On Tuesday (September 16), the Federal Reserve announced it was bailing out insurance giant AIG. It made an $85 billion "loan" in return for 79.9% equity, effectively taking ownership. AIG had run out of cash. It was scrambling to pay off credit default swaps it had issued against now-failing mortgage-backed securities.
On Wednesday (September 17), money market funds lost $144 billion. Investors panicked, switching to ultra-safe Treasury notes. The Dow fell 449.36 points.
On Thursday (September 18), markets rebounded 400 points. Investors learned about a new bank bailout package. On Friday (September 19), the Dow ended the week at 11,388.44. It was only slightly below its Monday open of 11,416.37.The Fed established the Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility (AMLF). It loaned $122.8 billion to banks to buy commercial paper from money market funds. On September 21, the Treasury guaranteed $50 billion worth of money market funds. The fact that the Fed has announced this new purchase program shows that credit markets are still partially frozen.
On Saturday, September 20, Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke sent the bank bailout bill to Congress. The Dow bounced around 11,000 until September 29 . That's when the Senate voted against the bailout bill. The Dow fell 777.68 points, the most in any single day in history. Global markets panicked, as well:

• 
  
  
  • The MSCI World Index dropped 6% in one day, the most since its creation in 1970.
  • Brazil's Bovespa was halted after dropping 10%.
  • The London FTSE dropped 15%.
  • Gold soared to over $900 an ounce.
  • Oil dropped to $95 a barrel.

To restore financial stability, the Federal Reserve doubled its currency swaps with foreign central banks in Europe, England, and Japan to $620 billion. The governments of the world were being forced to provide all the liquidity for frozen credit markets. (Source: "Stocks Crushed," CNNMoney, September 29, 2008. "Fed Pumps $630 Billion into Financial System," Bloomberg, September 29, 2008. "Stocks Plunge After Congress Rejects Bailout," September 29, 2008. "Bank bailouts sweep Europe," CNNMoney, September 29, 2008)
October 2008

Congress finally passed the bailout bill in early October, but by now panic had set in. The Labor Department reported that the economy had lost a whopping 159,000 jobs in the prior month. On Monday, October 6, the Dow dropped 800 points, closing before 10,000 for the first time since 2004.
The Federal Reserve fought the ongoing banking liquidity crisis by lending $540 billion to money market funds.That gave the funds enough cash to meet a continuing barrage of redemptions. Since August, more than $500 billion was withdrawn from money markets. That's where most businesses park their overnight cash. Businesses were hoarding cash because LIBOR rates were high. That's because banks have been reluctant to make loans.
JPMorgan Chase managed the Fed's Money Market Investor Funding Facility (MMIFF). It purchased up to $600 billion of certificates of deposit, bank notes, and commercial paper that would come due in 90 days. The remaining $60 billion came from the money markets themselves, who must purchase commercial paper from the MMIFF. (Source: Federal Reserve, Press Release, October 21,2008; "Fed to provide $540 billion to aid money funds," Bloomberg, October 21, 2008)
The Fed also coordinated a global central bank bailout. It quickly lowered the Fed funds rate to just one percent. But the LIBOR bank lending rate rose to its high of 3.46%.
The Dow responded by plummeting 13% throughout the month. By the end of October, the BEA released more sobering news. The economy had contracted 0.3% in the third quarter. The nation was in recession. (Source: CNN Money, The Week That Broke Wall Street, October 6, 2008)
November 2008

The Labor Department reported that the economy had lost a staggering 240,000 jobs in October. The month revealed more bad news. The AIG bailout grew to $150 billion, Treasury announced it was using part of the $700 billion bailout to buy preferred stocks in the nations' banks. The Big 3 automakers asked for a Federal bailout. By November 20, 2008, the Dow had plummeted to 7,552.29, a new low.But the stock market crash of 2008 was not yet over.
December 2008

The Federal Reserve dropped the Fed funds rate to zero, its lowest level in history. The Dow ended the year at a sickening 8,776.39, down nearly 34% for the year.
2009

The Dow climbed to 9,034.69 on January 2, 2009, in a burst of optimism. Investors believed that the new Obama Administration could tackle the recession with his team of economic advisers. But the bad economic news continued. The Dow plummeted to 6,594.44 on March 5, 2009. This was the true market bottom.
Soon afterward, Obama's economic stimulus plan instilled the confidence needed to stop the panic. On July 24, 2009, the Dow reached a higher high. It closed at 9,093.24, beating its January high. For most, the stock market crash of 2008 was over.
But scars remained. Investors remained skittish throughout the next four years. On June 1, 2012, they panicked over a poor May jobs report and the eurozone debt crisis. The Dow dropped 275 points, and the 10-year benchmark Treasury yielddropped to 1.443 during intraday trading. This was the lowest rate in more than 200 years. It signaled that the confidence that evaporated during 2008 had not yet returned to Wall Street.

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he 2008 crash was not unfettered capitalism. It was intrusive Government that caused the housing crash.

No. It was deregulation of the banks that allowed predatory lending to people that couldnt afford it. And they knew it as they knew when the bubble bursts the taxpayer will bail them out. It is the responsibility of the bank to make sound loans. Look it up.

The Government forced banks to lend to people who couldn't afford it. That is intrusive.

True. Bush pushed for the banks to make bad loans and they knew it. They knew, like now, tax payer dollars were ready.

Default mode blame Bush.

 

[Norman]

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

Now, do you want to divert your attention to the 100 million failures of communism?


This guy is just a leech, wants other people to pay for his shit... can't stand the fact that he is a loser and dumb. If you want to improve something then make a plan. Just blaming it on ideology and the fact that you aren't the dictator isn't a way to go.

 

[Tehon]

yep and CHINA decides all the rules -

Well it is their country. And since you can't point to an agreement that the Chinese are violating, one would fully expect that they would have control over their own affairs. Isn't that the very basic premise behind the Brexiters and the Trumpeteers?
Even the United States, which is very open, places limitations on foreign investment.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33103.pdf
Besides, your list is old, the Chinese have continued to open up since 2007. One shouldn't expect that a closed communist society would open up overnight. That would be reckless.
Update: Latest Guidance Catalogue for Foreign Investment Industries Released - China Briefing News

Anyway the point that I wanted to make was that opening the Chinese market to US companies was never the real target in my opinion. That was the facade, the real target was to exploit cheap labor and lower environmental standards and sell back into the US. Which we did, and built up China in the process. Which is why the US is now pushing TPP, to try and stem the tide of Chinese progress.

 

[owebo]

yep and CHINA decides all the rules -

Well it is their country. And since you can't point to an agreement that the Chinese are violating, one would fully expect that they would have control over their own affairs. Isn't that the very basic premise behind the Brexiters and the Trumpeteers?
Even the United States, which is very open, places limitations on foreign investment.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33103.pdf
Besides, your list is old, the Chinese have continued to open up since 2007. One shouldn't expect that a closed communist society would open up overnight. That would be reckless.
Update: Latest Guidance Catalogue for Foreign Investment Industries Released - China Briefing News

Anyway the point that I wanted to make was that opening the Chinese market to US companies was never the real target in my opinion. That was the facade, the real target was to exploit cheap labor and lower environmental standards and sell back into the US. Which we did, and built up China in the process. Which is why the US is now pushing TPP, to try and stem the tide of Chinese progress.

I can't wait until Trump labels China a currency manipulator.....now, that is going to be exciting.....

 

[Tehon]

yep and CHINA decides all the rules -

Well it is their country. And since you can't point to an agreement that the Chinese are violating, one would fully expect that they would have control over their own affairs. Isn't that the very basic premise behind the Brexiters and the Trumpeteers?
Even the United States, which is very open, places limitations on foreign investment.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33103.pdf
Besides, your list is old, the Chinese have continued to open up since 2007. One shouldn't expect that a closed communist society would open up overnight. That would be reckless.
Update: Latest Guidance Catalogue for Foreign Investment Industries Released - China Briefing News

Anyway the point that I wanted to make was that opening the Chinese market to US companies was never the real target in my opinion. That was the facade, the real target was to exploit cheap labor and lower environmental standards and sell back into the US. Which we did, and built up China in the process. Which is why the US is now pushing TPP, to try and stem the tide of Chinese progress.

I can't wait until Trump labels China a currency manipulator.....now, that is going to be exciting.....

And when he doesn't........the excitement will be in watching your reaction. I win regardless.

 

[owebo]

yep and CHINA decides all the rules -

Well it is their country. And since you can't point to an agreement that the Chinese are violating, one would fully expect that they would have control over their own affairs. Isn't that the very basic premise behind the Brexiters and the Trumpeteers?
Even the United States, which is very open, places limitations on foreign investment.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33103.pdf
Besides, your list is old, the Chinese have continued to open up since 2007. One shouldn't expect that a closed communist society would open up overnight. That would be reckless.
Update: Latest Guidance Catalogue for Foreign Investment Industries Released - China Briefing News

Anyway the point that I wanted to make was that opening the Chinese market to US companies was never the real target in my opinion. That was the facade, the real target was to exploit cheap labor and lower environmental standards and sell back into the US. Which we did, and built up China in the process. Which is why the US is now pushing TPP, to try and stem the tide of Chinese progress.

I can't wait until Trump labels China a currency manipulator.....now, that is going to be exciting.....

And when he doesn't........the excitement will be in watching your reaction. I win regardless.

No, you're a loser.....and America is a winner because you are.....

 

[sealybobo]

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

But we are going to try it again. I wonder who they'll pin it on?

Dot.com bubble, fanny and Freddy, harry & pelosi, Obama bill and Carter.

Fact is Obama is handing trump a fully functioning economy except for the fact that executives and shareholders aren't giving workers a seat at the table. Let's see how Republicans fight back or if trump forgets his campaign promise to help blue collar

 

[sealybobo]

Of course I know there is no unfettered yet. It is what is desired by globalists. Are you saying this is not the goal? And how does that effect our economy? I know it make the rich richer as we get cheap junk from 3rd world countries and jobs leave

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

There's no such thing as unfettered capitalism.

the US. You dont care about that though. What is YOUR definition of "unfettered"?

Wul, is there a such thing as a stock market crash?

I said there's no such thing as unfettered capitalism. How can I define what doesn't exist?

Exactly! Government always regulates. Just like sports don't work without rules

 

[owebo]

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

But we are going to try it again. I wonder who they'll pin it on?

Dot.com bubble, fanny and Freddy, harry & pelosi, Obama bill and Carter.

Fact is Obama is handing trump a fully functioning economy except for the fact that executives and shareholders aren't giving workers a seat at the table. Let's see how Republicans fight back or if trump forgets his campaign promise to help blue collar

The economy is a fucking train wreck.....At 20 trillion in debt and with Obama printing over 10 trillion in new cash, the end already passed us.....

Trump is a quiet revolution,mwho will soon get very loud in his attacks on you democrat fascists.....

 

[EverCurious]

@tehron no your point was to argue clearly. The statement I made is that the trade between China and the US is unfair (and I gave an example - RE China requires companies to move into their country to sell there (aka limited imports), yet the US has dropped tariff's for their companies importing into the US.) While it's nice to see an updated China policy (and I'll agree it's less restrictive) however, if that list relies on TPP it isn't going to happen.

Regardless of China there - The problem with the US's trade policies remains that we are giving massive "discounts" on import taxes while foreign countries are charging us big tariff's to import to them. This is tied into the WTO and past trade agreements which give preference to "WTO" countries, "undeveloped" countries, etc. The policies in the US are not keeping up with these developing countries policies because our government is slower than molasses to react to anything and when you mix in party politics - especially the NWO crap that has been being pushing for a decade+ you end up in a situation that the US can no longer afford.

We are broke, $20T in debt, we can no longer afford to be "generous" in our trade deals. We can no longer afford to let our companies go to foreign countries just so our people can save a few bucks on items - it was a good idea on paper but it hasn't worked out because the rest of the world isn't playing fair and our leaders are fucking idiots when it comes to making a fair deal. We need jobs in the US now, not $50 off a flat screen TV made in Japan (vs American made.) We've let foreign countries rape our businesses patents (which is BTW another reason that China demand(ed) that companies work in their countries to sell - so they could rip off the ideas and make it for themselves) and thus rendered companies based in the US impotent to compete with local foreign companies to import their products. We've jacked up the cost of labor so high that it's near impossible for businesses to employ American's. We've played the environmentalist game and piled on endless regulations on businesses, and the moron public continues to tax the shit out of businesses because /they/ [the people] don't want to pay more, making it impossible for our businesses to compete globally if they stay in the US. You can only take so much god damn money from a business before they run out of options. America pushed too damn far.

ALL of that needs to be reversed at least in part, so that 40%+ of American's aren't on food stamps, and her businesses can actually compete in the global economy.

 

[Iceweasel]

Of course I know there is no unfettered yet. It is what is desired by globalists. Are you saying this is not the goal? And how does that effect our economy? I know it make the rich richer as we get cheap junk from 3rd world countries and jobs leave

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

There's no such thing as unfettered capitalism.

the US. You dont care about that though. What is YOUR definition of "unfettered"?

Wul, is there a such thing as a stock market crash?

I said there's no such thing as unfettered capitalism. How can I define what doesn't exist?

Exactly! Government always regulates. Just like sports don't work without rules

That's a simple view since government can set basic rules to ruling everything or anything in between. But simple is what you do.

 

[bripat9643]

Of course I know there is no unfettered yet. It is what is desired by globalists. Are you saying this is not the goal? And how does that effect our economy? I know it make the rich richer as we get cheap junk from 3rd world countries and jobs leave

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

There's no such thing as unfettered capitalism.

the US. You dont care about that though. What is YOUR definition of "unfettered"?

Wul, is there a such thing as a stock market crash?

I said there's no such thing as unfettered capitalism. How can I define what doesn't exist?

Exactly! Government always regulates. Just like sports don't work without rules

Your belief that government is needed to create and enforce the rules is where you go wrong. Does government enforce the rules of football?

 

[Tehon]

The problem with the US's trade policies remains that we are giving massive "discounts" on import taxes while foreign countries are charging us big tariff's to import to them.

The problem with US trade policies is that they are written by the corporations for the corporations. China is slowly opening up but the primary importance was for the corporations to gain access to cheap labor markets and loose environmental rules while reducing the cost of importing the goods back to the US. Our trade policies are by design.

 

[sealybobo]

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

But we are going to try it again. I wonder who they'll pin it on?

Dot.com bubble, fanny and Freddy, harry & pelosi, Obama bill and Carter.

Fact is Obama is handing trump a fully functioning economy except for the fact that executives and shareholders aren't giving workers a seat at the table. Let's see how Republicans fight back or if trump forgets his campaign promise to help blue collar

The economy is a fucking train wreck.....At 20 trillion in debt and with Obama printing over 10 trillion in new cash, the end already passed us.....

Trump is a quiet revolution,mwho will soon get very loud in his attacks on you democrat fascists.....

The debt will double on trumps watch. Watch and see.

This is the last time Republicans talk about lowering the debt. They'll cut spending on liberal social programs but spend it somewhere else. Military and infrastructure.

 

[sealybobo]

Of course I know there is no unfettered yet. It is what is desired by globalists. Are you saying this is not the goal? And how does that effect our economy? I know it make the rich richer as we get cheap junk from 3rd world countries and jobs leave

...time and time again. It doesnt work.
Here are at least 18 of the failures.
1800, 1823, 1837, 1857,1880, 1896,1900, 1903, 1907, 1929, 1937, 1938,1946, 1963, 1969, 1987, 1989 and 2008.

There's no such thing as unfettered capitalism.

the US. You dont care about that though. What is YOUR definition of "unfettered"?

Wul, is there a such thing as a stock market crash?

I said there's no such thing as unfettered capitalism. How can I define what doesn't exist?

Exactly! Government always regulates. Just like sports don't work without rules

Your belief that government is needed to create and enforce the rules is where you go wrong. Does government enforce the rules of football?

No they have unions

 

[owebo]

The problem with the US's trade policies remains that we are giving massive "discounts" on import taxes while foreign countries are charging us big tariff's to import to them.

The problem with US trade policies is that they are written by the corporations for the corporations. China is slowly opening up but the primary importance was for the corporations to gain access to cheap labor markets and loose environmental rules while reducing the cost of importing the goods back to the US. Our trade policies are by design.

Trump is going to fuck up your design, big league.....

 

[sealybobo]

The problem with the US's trade policies remains that we are giving massive "discounts" on import taxes while foreign countries are charging us big tariff's to import to them.

The problem with US trade policies is that they are written by the corporations for the corporations. China is slowly opening up but the primary importance was for the corporations to gain access to cheap labor markets and loose environmental rules while reducing the cost of importing the goods back to the US. Our trade policies are by design.

And trumps not going to cost those corporations.

They'll come back but tax free for the next 40 years