Unions in the US

[asterism]

I really wish I could say the same about you. I'm just glad you're not arguing for my side.

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

How about no job and being stuck in Warren, MI with nothing but promises from the UAW and some old guy flying up from Florida to tell you how great he has it?

How are you going to take it other than up the keester? My neighbor is traveling and that's exactly what he's being paid to do, sell the "UAW" to the disaffected folks in Warren, Royal Oak, even as far away as Ypsilanti.

TRUE exploitation right here.

 

[daveman]

I really wish I could say the same about you. I'm just glad you're not arguing for my side.

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

And you'll bend over for corporate exploitation and condemn your fellows workers for trying to better themselves? What a suckass!!

I have no problem with individuals earning better pay and benefits by merit and negotiation. Are you incapable of doing that yourself? Is that why you need the union to hold your hand?

Did I say that I was intelligent? I don't remember if I did but I'm certain you can show me if I did. I'll be waiting.

If you did say it, you'd have been lying.

 

[daveman]

I really wish I could say the same about you. I'm just glad you're not arguing for my side.

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

...until they tell you you're not making enough, and to go on strike (oh, but keep paying those dues!), and then the company shuts down because they can't meet your unreasonable demands.

Yeah, that'll show THE MAN!!

 

[daveman]

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

I honestly believe that many non-union workers are jealous of the wages and benefits that union represented workers get. All they want to do is drag others down to their level.

Either that, or they're too stupid to figure out that the Labor Movement raised everyone's standard of living and virtually created the middle class as we know it.

No one's disputing the need for and the good unions did.

But in case you haven't noticed, everything the unions worked for has been codified into law.

They have no reason to exist now but to make money.

 

[daveman]

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

I honestly believe that many non-union workers are jealous of the wages and benefits that union represented workers get. All they want to do is drag others down to their level.

There comes a point at which demands are simply unreasonable and harmful to the long-term health of the economy and, in turn, the well-being of the working class as a whole.

Look at Flint, Michigan and the empty steel mills in Pittsburgh for proof.

 

[asterism]

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

I honestly believe that many non-union workers are jealous of the wages and benefits that union represented workers get. All they want to do is drag others down to their level.

Save your projection and your jealousy.

I am not nor have I ever been jealous of my neighbor. Good for him to take a hardship (quit school at 16 to help feed his siblings because that rat bastard father hauled ass) and turn it into a positive. Growing up I actually admired him and he taught me many things regarding how far one can get on just hard work alone. I think he's overcompensated only because I can't see how his work is worth what the company paid (and still pays) and he agrees. But as he says, "Not everyone can get what I got, but that doesn't mean I didn't earn it." True to an extent, and again it shows that 50% of success is just being on-time. That philosophy has served me quite well.

I don't envy him nor am I jealous of him. I actually owe him because he was wise enough to give me some insight into how he thought he could run circles around his managers and run an efficient operation, and he laments the fact that nobody ever listened to his ideas when he was on the line. "I'm not stupid, but I made it by working the system. But that isn't going to help you," he told me. "You need to build a system of your own, one that can't be worked. Pay based on value but never ever bounce a check. Don't ever do that. The largest car company on the planet still bounces some of my checks sometimes, that's what we call breakage. It's why they do it. Don't ever do that, you won't ever live it down."

I have gotten a lot of insight into the inside dealings of the UAW from this guy, and what I got from him was a lifetime of musings on how the whole game was rigged from the start once the political power had been acquired, and that was because the honchos in charge saw the unsustainability and decided to milk it for all it was worth for their own benefit.

Here's this guy's opinion of the people he's talking to right now, selling them on the "future of the UAW."

"If they were smart they would have already moved to Tennessee or Alabama or South Carolina. So since they are not, we've got to get them to join the union; otherwise Detroit is going to collapse and there won't be any structure to control them. That's what I'm being told, and that's what the city is paying my bosses to avoid."

Go ahead and deny it. Head down to the union hall tomorrow night and see if you find out if there isn't a huge effort by the UAW to get people without jobs to join and pay dues in the hopes of getting a job. The UAW is also actively unionizing non-auto companies. Did you know that UAW represents workers at Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut?

Foxwoods, UAW Agree On Contract For Table-Game Dealers - Hartford Courant


I'd been told before the agreement that the IBEW would never try and unionize my office because we don't do installs. But when my employees started getting the mailers and I investigated why customer service reps would even be eligible, I was astonished to find out the the IBEW actually considers anyone who uses a computer at their job to be eligible.

Stay the fuck out of my office. I pay above market.

 

[asterism]

The reason they had to combine resources is to fight the compaies in the political arena that are trying to turn back the clock on workers rights.



The only thing your neighbor did was take advantage of a benefit that was bargained for him. If it is "unsustainable" from a company point of view they should never had agreed to it.

I will say that the old "30 and out" retirement plans are becoming dinosaurs. Most (if not nearly all) are either an 85 point plan or 60 years old (with reduced pensions at 55) with at least 10 years of service.

While I agree that the company never should have agreed to it, it was also grossly dishonest for the union to even put such a situation on the table in the first place. I have always been told unions were there to protect workers and not just do whatever they could get away with. See, that's the problem.

Now stay out of my shop.

First you say that what benefits the worker got from union negotiations were unfair to the company (though they agreed to it) then you allude that the union didn't protect the worker?

The worker got $500K in compensation for 30 years worth of work that a capable 16 year old could do. He has since gotten a cool million in retirement benefits since, all paid out of current operating expenses. That's unfair, and it set up the collapse of GM. The union certainly protected him, but they did not protect the thousands of newer workers that the UAW agreed to lay off once they became owners. I understand the case law and I get how unions have successfully leveraged their political power to undermine any pretense of fiduciary responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that now unemployed autoworkers were sold a bill of goods and didn't deliver results. That's why the UAW is now trying to unionize companies that don't even make cars.

Stay out of my shop if you want my employees to make above market.

 

[snjmom]

These are the communist lazy bastards you speak of.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCiVMngILEI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCiVMngILEI[/ame]

And these are some real communist bastards with no chance of union protections.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6DCHggLyw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6DCHggLyw[/ame]

 

[asterism]

So I would take it that everyone of you that show such a hate for people joining together for their betterment, must also be against the the groups put together to benefit employers.

Why is corps are able to make millions and billions for their owners, but the people they use to make this money are not able to share in this. Corps set up rules that employees have to ad-hear to, and are able to change these rules at any moment for any reason and you have no recourse except to quit or get fired or do exactly what they want.

All unions do is make sure employers have to live by a set of rules just like the employees. They are there to document rules and make sure they are enforced in a fair manner.
My union always made the employees understand that yes you deserve to make a decent living, but the company needed to make a decent profit. so the company's success is entirely tied into your's.

90% of things working people have right now is directly because of what unions fought for, even though you work for a business that isn't union.
It's most certain 4

So I would take it that everyone of you that show such a hate for people joining together for their betterment, must also be against the the groups put together to benefit employers.

Not at all. Live by the sword, die by the sword. But don't bitch to me if you decide that your collective bargaining arrangement benefits someone other than you. I guarantee that whatever you get the guy on "your side" gets more. If you work for me and want to bargain, we can do that. If you think it's a better option to have someone else bargain for you, so be it. But once you outsource your control to them, remember that they have power to force my hand and if I agree I can no longer deal with your situation directly.

Choose wisely.

Why is corps are able to make millions and billions for their owners, but the people they use to make this money are not able to share in this.

You are apparently unaware of assembly line millionaires. They shared in the millions, no doubt about it.

Corps set up rules that employees have to ad-hear to, and are able to change these rules at any moment for any reason and you have no recourse except to quit or get fired or do exactly what they want.

Not exactly true. That said, people of value are retained through business model changes. If you trust the union to hold your hand, good luck. I want you to do well.

All unions do is make sure employers have to live by a set of rules just like the employees.

They do much more than that, but it seems you've never actually participated in a union negotiation. I can't discuss that which you are clueless.

They are there to document rules and make sure they are enforced in a fair manner.
My union always made the employees understand that yes you deserve to make a decent living, but the company needed to make a decent profit. so the company's success is entirely tied into your's.

Eastern Airlines and GM. Sometimes they want to break the company to get more control.

90% of things working people have right now is directly because of what unions fought for, even though you work for a business that isn't union.
It's most certain 4

Already addressed, but even if that were the case that's like saying we should continue to pay dues to Patrick Henry's estate because 90% of what we have in this country is directly because of what he fought (literally in military battle, not just this thug picket line thing) for.

 

[DaGoose]

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

And you'll bend over for corporate exploitation and condemn your fellows workers for trying to better themselves? What a suckass!!

I have no problem with individuals earning better pay and benefits by merit and negotiation. Are you incapable of doing that yourself? Is that why you need the union to hold your hand?

Did I say that I was intelligent? I don't remember if I did but I'm certain you can show me if I did. I'll be waiting.

If you did say it, you'd have been lying.

Which is what you've been doing all along. You lied about what Obama supposedly said and you're lying here too.

It's hard to argue with a liar. They keep changing their story.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

unions:
A) are evil communists who hate america

b) have largely served their purpose; are becoming obsolete

c) have largely become greedy and detrimental to their original purpose

d) must keep fighting!

a

 

[daveman]

And you'll bend over for corporate exploitation and condemn your fellows workers for trying to better themselves? What a suckass!!

I have no problem with individuals earning better pay and benefits by merit and negotiation. Are you incapable of doing that yourself? Is that why you need the union to hold your hand?

Did I say that I was intelligent? I don't remember if I did but I'm certain you can show me if I did. I'll be waiting.

If you did say it, you'd have been lying.

Which is what you've been doing all along. You lied about what Obama supposedly said and you're lying here too.

It's hard to argue with a liar. They keep changing their story.

I don't have to lie. Leftists make themselves look bad.

And you're doing a heckuva job!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

I honestly believe that many non-union workers are jealous of the wages and benefits that union represented workers get. All they want to do is drag others down to their level.

Because I do not belong to a union I am free to come and go as I please I am free to moon light. As for your pocket change union wages I would not get out of bed for less than 30.00 an hour.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I vote C.
With the formation of more fair labor laws and practices, Unions serve to pad the pockets of their officers more than they do to help the members or the job force.

How did you arrive at that conclusion, considering the labor leaders negotiate Union wages and benefits for their workers and then serve a multitude of other functions during the year, from negotiating contracts with employers to dispatching Union members to job sites, overseeing their rights, etc.? Even after an Union member retires, they are there for their pensions and other benefits throughout their entire lives.

From what I've witnessed with the unions, their leaders only care about becoming richer. Increasing membership is their primary goal, NOT the concerns of the members they represent, for the sole purpose of generating more union dues into the pockets of their leaders. If unions care so much for their members, why are those that suffer the hardships that comes from long term unemployment still have to face full quarterly membership dues? If that isn't "greed" over supporting the needs of their members, I don't know what is!!!

 

[snjmom]

As for your pocket change union wages I would not get out of bed for less than 30.00 an hour.

You do realize that 75% of the people in the US make less than that.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

As for your pocket change union wages I would not get out of bed for less than 30.00 an hour.

You do realize that 75% of the people in the US make less than that.

They can do what I did and learn the trade, but I really don't give a damn.

 

[shintao]

There are less then 9% of our private sector citizens employed by Union companies these days. Less then we had in 1932. The reason is largley because of ignorance.

I disagree.

Many of the common problems and abuses that necessitated the unions of old are now rare and readily handled through government agencies.

That is true, yet many common problems still exist that gov. does not handle.

The unions were very successful and have largely rendered themselves obsolete. That's a testament to their success, much like a doctor curing his patient and no longer being needed.

Even the patient has relapse. It seems the scab is the one who has rendered himself obsolete, with millions unemployed, millions living without raises in years living pay check to pay check, many living without any worker benefits, their jobs going overseas, their homes & cars going back to the bank. Really a shame what the working individual with no collective power has done to himself by listening to the republicans.

 

[snjmom]

As for your pocket change union wages I would not get out of bed for less than 30.00 an hour.

You do realize that 75% of the people in the US make less than that.

They can do what I did and learn the trade, but I really don't give a damn.

When 50,000 new workers became qualified for the trade and are willing to work for $15 an hour, how will you maintain?

 

[shintao]

So you condemn corporate exploitation, but gladly line up for union exploitation.

Remind me again...why is it you think you're intelligent?

Union exploitation?

What, you mean better pay, benefits, and working conditions?

If that's exploitation, I'll take all they can give out.

How about no job and being stuck in Warren, MI with nothing but promises from the UAW and some old guy flying up from Florida to tell you how great he has it?

How are you going to take it other than up the keester? My neighbor is traveling and that's exactly what he's being paid to do, sell the "UAW" to the disaffected folks in Warren, Royal Oak, even as far away as Ypsilanti.

TRUE exploitation right here.

Ahh, one of those who wants the job to come to them. There are thousands of auto plants, get off the couch and get a job.

 

[asterism]

Even the patient has relapse. It seems the scab is the one who has rendered himself obsolete, with millions unemployed, millions living without raises in years living pay check to pay check, many living without any worker benefits, their jobs going overseas, their homes & cars going back to the bank. Really a shame what the working individual with no power has done to himself by listening to the republicans.

Please continue to sell the virtues of unions by referring to the majority who don't work for one by a derogatory description. it really helps your case.

"Hey scab! Come over here and let me tell you how much you suck!"

"Get lost, loser. I'm on my way to work."