Us versus them. Why are americans turning on each other?

[BULLDOG]

Did you really accuse me of being simple minded? I really don't think any responses or arguments I have made here have been simple minded.

And I also don't see how anything I have said is hurting our discourse. But please do elaborate on the specific problems you think I am ignoring or being simple minded about

No, I was agreeing with you.

Just pointing out that both ends of the spectrum do what you describe.

Many of their behaviors are very similar, ironically.
.

I've heard that from a lot of right wingers. What reason do you think liberals might have to do something like that? Do you think we want to lower our own standard of living, and why would we want to do that?

Because in the 80s and 90s all we heard from the left was how unfair it was that the US only represented 18% of the world's population but

A) Controlled 66% of the world's wealth?
B) Used 40% of the world's energy?
etc..

That was the left crying out for WORLD redistribution and "social justice". Now that that's accomplished and Asia has developed and Africans want some modern age convienience and world nation "income gaps" have been reduced --- they want to do the same INSIDE America..

The left were CHAMPIONS of humbling American success in regards to the developing world. They WON that game. Now --- they whine about it. But their job is not done until outcomes are equalized and life and is made risk free for everyone.. So they LOVE low growth numbers. Because HIGH growth is "unsustainable" and bad for the planet.

Well I can't speak for the liberals that you claim to speak for but I will say it is my understanding that the liberal friends I have and know want equal opportunity no equal outcomes.

And again, I promise that 75% of liberals have more in common with 75% of conservatives than the other 25% which is mostly made of greedy plutocrats and bums who just want to live off defrauding us

So you're saying that it was just my imagination that the left was ALL OUT FOR reducing those income, wealth and energy gaps between the US and the World back in 80/90s? You need some quotes or something? Or you just gonna gloss that over because it doesn't fit your narrative?

I never saw efforts to help other countries to become more self sustaining so the world would be a more stable place as a bad thing, and the fact that we produced massively more pollution, and used more energy than a large part of the rest of the world combined was certainly worth looking at, but no. I never saw it as an effort to lower our standard of living, as you imply. Is that why you are so willing to accept the constant lies from the right? Because you didn't like what some people said about ecology in the 80's and 90's?

It was only incidentally about ecology in the 80s and 90s.. If you remember this came with the baggage of "The Population Bomb" and other leftist creations. So it was obvious that some economic Imperialism and "family planning" was all wrapped into concern for the planet. It was REALLY ABOUT spawning the "social justice" movement.. The same movement the new Pope has leaped aboard on. .And that "social justice" movement of course was ALL about redistribution and equality of outcomes. Those mantras were scrolled all over the Campus bulletin boards I saw.. That WE as Americans had somehow TAKEN and ABSCONDED with the worlds energy and wealth and all that had to change.

Zoom ahead 30 years and Asia has eaten us for a snack. Removed our ability to make stuff and lifted 200 Million Chinese OUT of poverty getting THEIR hands dirty making shit for "American" business. We have been humbled exactly as the "social justice" folks desired. AND TODAY -- they actually have a candidate for Prez of the UStates!!!! Think that -- MIGHT be a cause for "division"?? Go ask Nader or Chomsky or Alinsky if the plan is working..

You've seen what social justice and wealth distribution has done on a planetary scale... Now YOU want to apply all that success to America..

PS.. If ya DIDN'T know --- I'm not a Conservative. I just dislike economic bondage and penalties on achievement. And folks who would never be honest about being socialists until the Bern made it trendy...

We, as a country didn't give China that boost. You can thank the corporations for that. The same corporations who benefitted from all those so called trickle down policies, and the same corporations the right wants to cut more taxes for, at the expense of the working man.
Lies and hatred has caused the division.

 

[initforme]

Hey but the ceos got their bonuses so all is good.

 

[flacaltenn]

No, I was agreeing with you.

Just pointing out that both ends of the spectrum do what you describe.

Many of their behaviors are very similar, ironically.
.

Because in the 80s and 90s all we heard from the left was how unfair it was that the US only represented 18% of the world's population but

A) Controlled 66% of the world's wealth?
B) Used 40% of the world's energy?
etc..

That was the left crying out for WORLD redistribution and "social justice". Now that that's accomplished and Asia has developed and Africans want some modern age convienience and world nation "income gaps" have been reduced --- they want to do the same INSIDE America..

The left were CHAMPIONS of humbling American success in regards to the developing world. They WON that game. Now --- they whine about it. But their job is not done until outcomes are equalized and life and is made risk free for everyone.. So they LOVE low growth numbers. Because HIGH growth is "unsustainable" and bad for the planet.

Well I can't speak for the liberals that you claim to speak for but I will say it is my understanding that the liberal friends I have and know want equal opportunity no equal outcomes.

And again, I promise that 75% of liberals have more in common with 75% of conservatives than the other 25% which is mostly made of greedy plutocrats and bums who just want to live off defrauding us

So you're saying that it was just my imagination that the left was ALL OUT FOR reducing those income, wealth and energy gaps between the US and the World back in 80/90s? You need some quotes or something? Or you just gonna gloss that over because it doesn't fit your narrative?

I never saw efforts to help other countries to become more self sustaining so the world would be a more stable place as a bad thing, and the fact that we produced massively more pollution, and used more energy than a large part of the rest of the world combined was certainly worth looking at, but no. I never saw it as an effort to lower our standard of living, as you imply. Is that why you are so willing to accept the constant lies from the right? Because you didn't like what some people said about ecology in the 80's and 90's?

It was only incidentally about ecology in the 80s and 90s.. If you remember this came with the baggage of "The Population Bomb" and other leftist creations. So it was obvious that some economic Imperialism and "family planning" was all wrapped into concern for the planet. It was REALLY ABOUT spawning the "social justice" movement.. The same movement the new Pope has leaped aboard on. .And that "social justice" movement of course was ALL about redistribution and equality of outcomes. Those mantras were scrolled all over the Campus bulletin boards I saw.. That WE as Americans had somehow TAKEN and ABSCONDED with the worlds energy and wealth and all that had to change.

Zoom ahead 30 years and Asia has eaten us for a snack. Removed our ability to make stuff and lifted 200 Million Chinese OUT of poverty getting THEIR hands dirty making shit for "American" business. We have been humbled exactly as the "social justice" folks desired. AND TODAY -- they actually have a candidate for Prez of the UStates!!!! Think that -- MIGHT be a cause for "division"?? Go ask Nader or Chomsky or Alinsky if the plan is working..

You've seen what social justice and wealth distribution has done on a planetary scale... Now YOU want to apply all that success to America..

PS.. If ya DIDN'T know --- I'm not a Conservative. I just dislike economic bondage and penalties on achievement. And folks who would never be honest about being socialists until the Bern made it trendy...

We, as a country didn't give China that boost. You can thank the corporations for that. The same corporations who benefitted from all those so called trickle down policies, and the same corporations the right wants to cut more taxes for, at the expense of the working man.
Lies and hatred has caused the division.

We actually did give China that boost. Corporations were stupid to give the Chinese the factories, the methods, and the PLANS for our top notch goods. Just stone stupid. And they will pay for that. It's all gonna be taken away from them. Just like the Japanese --- who we laughed at as engineering incompetents --- took away our ENTIRE consumer electronics biz in the 80s and 90s. We never learn. Corporations are WE. They are lawyers and dentists and veterinarians as well as Nike and Apples. They just should NEVER BE political patrons. It was the MBAs that made the call to move factories to China rather than investing in 21st Century automation HERE in this country. Doing the latter required RISK, INVESTMENT, TIME and yards of regulation.. Going to China required very little effort or cost..

In the sense of this thread -- we CAN probably all agree that corporations should never EVER receive any subsidies or tax breaks for ANY product that is already commercially available. But neither side has the guts to pull the plug. Because they KNOW that GE pays no taxes because of GREEN tax credits. Dems just want you to HATE GE because "they pay no net taxes" and know the public is too stupid to realize that those credits are for making "energy star" appliances, wind turbines and efficient trains. They used to get $50 tax credit for every efficient washer/dryer that rolled off their factory floor. .Probably still do..

YOU --- don't have the guts to pull that plug either. But Bernie does. Or the Libertarian Party does. The hollering and screaming from BOTH SIDES is gonna be deafening when it gets pulled,..

This shit ain't as simple as you think it is..

 

[BULLDOG]

Well I can't speak for the liberals that you claim to speak for but I will say it is my understanding that the liberal friends I have and know want equal opportunity no equal outcomes.

And again, I promise that 75% of liberals have more in common with 75% of conservatives than the other 25% which is mostly made of greedy plutocrats and bums who just want to live off defrauding us

So you're saying that it was just my imagination that the left was ALL OUT FOR reducing those income, wealth and energy gaps between the US and the World back in 80/90s? You need some quotes or something? Or you just gonna gloss that over because it doesn't fit your narrative?

I never saw efforts to help other countries to become more self sustaining so the world would be a more stable place as a bad thing, and the fact that we produced massively more pollution, and used more energy than a large part of the rest of the world combined was certainly worth looking at, but no. I never saw it as an effort to lower our standard of living, as you imply. Is that why you are so willing to accept the constant lies from the right? Because you didn't like what some people said about ecology in the 80's and 90's?

It was only incidentally about ecology in the 80s and 90s.. If you remember this came with the baggage of "The Population Bomb" and other leftist creations. So it was obvious that some economic Imperialism and "family planning" was all wrapped into concern for the planet. It was REALLY ABOUT spawning the "social justice" movement.. The same movement the new Pope has leaped aboard on. .And that "social justice" movement of course was ALL about redistribution and equality of outcomes. Those mantras were scrolled all over the Campus bulletin boards I saw.. That WE as Americans had somehow TAKEN and ABSCONDED with the worlds energy and wealth and all that had to change.

Zoom ahead 30 years and Asia has eaten us for a snack. Removed our ability to make stuff and lifted 200 Million Chinese OUT of poverty getting THEIR hands dirty making shit for "American" business. We have been humbled exactly as the "social justice" folks desired. AND TODAY -- they actually have a candidate for Prez of the UStates!!!! Think that -- MIGHT be a cause for "division"?? Go ask Nader or Chomsky or Alinsky if the plan is working..

You've seen what social justice and wealth distribution has done on a planetary scale... Now YOU want to apply all that success to America..

PS.. If ya DIDN'T know --- I'm not a Conservative. I just dislike economic bondage and penalties on achievement. And folks who would never be honest about being socialists until the Bern made it trendy...

We, as a country didn't give China that boost. You can thank the corporations for that. The same corporations who benefitted from all those so called trickle down policies, and the same corporations the right wants to cut more taxes for, at the expense of the working man.
Lies and hatred has caused the division.

We actually did give China that boost. Corporations were stupid to give the Chinese the factories, the methods, and the PLANS for our top notch goods. Just stone stupid. And they will pay for that. It's all gonna be taken away from them. Just like the Japanese --- who we laughed at as engineering incompetents --- took away our ENTIRE consumer electronics biz in the 80s and 90s. We never learn. Corporations are WE. They are lawyers and dentists and veterinarians as well as Nike and Apples. They just should NEVER BE political patrons. It was the MBAs that made the call to move factories to China rather than investing in 21st Century automation HERE in this country. Doing the latter required RISK, INVESTMENT, TIME and yards of regulation.. Going to China required very little effort or cost..

In the sense of this thread -- we CAN probably all agree that corporations should never EVER receive any subsidies or tax breaks for ANY product that is already commercially available. But neither side has the guts to pull the plug. Because they KNOW that GE pays no taxes because of GREEN tax credits. Dems just want you to HATE GE because "they pay no net taxes" and know the public is too stupid to realize that those credits are for making "energy star" appliances, wind turbines and efficient trains. They used to get $50 tax credit for every efficient washer/dryer that rolled off their factory floor. .Probably still do..

YOU --- don't have the guts to pull that plug either. But Bernie does. Or the Libertarian Party does. The hollering and screaming from BOTH SIDES is gonna be deafening when it gets pulled,..

This shit ain't as simple as you think it is..

Corporations are not "WE". The corporations that caused this are run by the super rich who have probably never known what it was like to balance their personal budget. Sure, they had to deal with corporate finances, but we both know they never had to decide whether to replace the bald tire on the car, or pay the electric bill. Their relationship to money is vastly different than the middle class. Liberals didn't do that damage.

 

[flacaltenn]

So you're saying that it was just my imagination that the left was ALL OUT FOR reducing those income, wealth and energy gaps between the US and the World back in 80/90s? You need some quotes or something? Or you just gonna gloss that over because it doesn't fit your narrative?

I never saw efforts to help other countries to become more self sustaining so the world would be a more stable place as a bad thing, and the fact that we produced massively more pollution, and used more energy than a large part of the rest of the world combined was certainly worth looking at, but no. I never saw it as an effort to lower our standard of living, as you imply. Is that why you are so willing to accept the constant lies from the right? Because you didn't like what some people said about ecology in the 80's and 90's?

It was only incidentally about ecology in the 80s and 90s.. If you remember this came with the baggage of "The Population Bomb" and other leftist creations. So it was obvious that some economic Imperialism and "family planning" was all wrapped into concern for the planet. It was REALLY ABOUT spawning the "social justice" movement.. The same movement the new Pope has leaped aboard on. .And that "social justice" movement of course was ALL about redistribution and equality of outcomes. Those mantras were scrolled all over the Campus bulletin boards I saw.. That WE as Americans had somehow TAKEN and ABSCONDED with the worlds energy and wealth and all that had to change.

Zoom ahead 30 years and Asia has eaten us for a snack. Removed our ability to make stuff and lifted 200 Million Chinese OUT of poverty getting THEIR hands dirty making shit for "American" business. We have been humbled exactly as the "social justice" folks desired. AND TODAY -- they actually have a candidate for Prez of the UStates!!!! Think that -- MIGHT be a cause for "division"?? Go ask Nader or Chomsky or Alinsky if the plan is working..

You've seen what social justice and wealth distribution has done on a planetary scale... Now YOU want to apply all that success to America..

PS.. If ya DIDN'T know --- I'm not a Conservative. I just dislike economic bondage and penalties on achievement. And folks who would never be honest about being socialists until the Bern made it trendy...

We, as a country didn't give China that boost. You can thank the corporations for that. The same corporations who benefitted from all those so called trickle down policies, and the same corporations the right wants to cut more taxes for, at the expense of the working man.
Lies and hatred has caused the division.

We actually did give China that boost. Corporations were stupid to give the Chinese the factories, the methods, and the PLANS for our top notch goods. Just stone stupid. And they will pay for that. It's all gonna be taken away from them. Just like the Japanese --- who we laughed at as engineering incompetents --- took away our ENTIRE consumer electronics biz in the 80s and 90s. We never learn. Corporations are WE. They are lawyers and dentists and veterinarians as well as Nike and Apples. They just should NEVER BE political patrons. It was the MBAs that made the call to move factories to China rather than investing in 21st Century automation HERE in this country. Doing the latter required RISK, INVESTMENT, TIME and yards of regulation.. Going to China required very little effort or cost..

In the sense of this thread -- we CAN probably all agree that corporations should never EVER receive any subsidies or tax breaks for ANY product that is already commercially available. But neither side has the guts to pull the plug. Because they KNOW that GE pays no taxes because of GREEN tax credits. Dems just want you to HATE GE because "they pay no net taxes" and know the public is too stupid to realize that those credits are for making "energy star" appliances, wind turbines and efficient trains. They used to get $50 tax credit for every efficient washer/dryer that rolled off their factory floor. .Probably still do..

YOU --- don't have the guts to pull that plug either. But Bernie does. Or the Libertarian Party does. The hollering and screaming from BOTH SIDES is gonna be deafening when it gets pulled,..

This shit ain't as simple as you think it is..

Corporations are not "WE". The corporations that caused this are run by the super rich who have probably never known what it was like to balance their personal budget. Sure, they had to deal with corporate finances, but we both know they never had to decide whether to replace the bald tire on the car, or pay the electric bill. Their relationship to money is vastly different than the middle class. Liberals didn't do that damage.

"Corporations are run by the super rich" ---- that's funny.. I've been involved in client decisions to move work to China DOZENS of time in the past decade. And NONE of those folks involved were "uber-rich". WE ALL DID IT. And in general, corporations are OWNED by the public, run by upper middle class mgt, and exist to SERVE the public with products and services. Just like the govt exists to SERVE the public with products and services.

If you leftists had a clue as to how stuff works in the economy -- you might be politically dangerous..

You love to key in on the CEOs who make the huge bucks. But those CEOs exist BECAUSE they know how to organize and lead large numbers of talent who DON'T make the huge bucks. And MOST of what a CEO "earns" is EQUITY IN THE FREAKIN COMPANY --- not cash. As they should -- because they are hired to serve as the titular boss and owner. I wouldn't want to work for a CEO who didn't own a considerable stake in the venture. So when a new guy comes on -- they start to accumulate large amounts of the COMPANY. NOT in competition with the lower paid staff at all. .

 

[Contumacious]

Read any forum post in politics and its liberals bashing conservatives or vice versa. Conservatives and liberals always in lock step behind their candidate. Ask the majority of Trump supporters or Hillary supporters why they are voting for the candidate and the #1 answer is because their candidate isn't the other candidate. The majority of conversations here don't center around policy or any tangible issue. It's all slander and character attacks.

What we fail to realize is that 75% (maybe more) of the population has so much in common but yet we get divided over who uses what bathroom.

I read an article the other day about "Obama's war or police." So I looked at some statistics and come to find out the past few years the number of police killed in the line of duty has been declining. I also learned that more children under the age of 17 are killed every year by gunshot wounds than police.

In North Carolina the state legislature decided to pass a bathroom law (something magical must have happened this year that required this law to come into existence) then Obama overruled the law and the whole country went crazy.

What the fuck are we fighting about? Somehow MSNBC cares about Melania Trump and her modeling career. Somehow the size of a man's hands matters for being president. What the fuck are we fighting about.

Can we talk about debt and deficits, can we talk about jobs and growth. Can we talk about affordable healthcare and corporations writing our laws? Can we talk about spending cuts and raising revenue? Can we talk about public education and corporate fraud? These are debates we need to have, not more Benghazi hearings or hand measuring contests.

When SCOTUS ruled that the first "income"tax was UNcosntitutional , Justice Field predicted that if the trend continued that in the future the battles would be the rich vs the poor. Ask Comrade Sanders.


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