Was the Iraq 'war' legal?

[there4eyeM]

Opinion: Why Bush, Blair should be charged with war crimes over Iraq - CNN.com

Excerpt:

"Article 1 makes clear that the main purpose of the U.N. is to "maintain international peace and security and to that end to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace" and to act in accordance with justice and the principles of international law.

It is for the U.N. to determine what collective measures should be taken -- not for individual states to take unilateral or bilateral action. This is not rocket science, but the simple application of restraint and respect for the rules that Britain and America agreed to when they signed the Charter.

But this is not what happened 10 years ago at the behest of U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Their agenda was quite different -- to remove a dictator, Saddam Hussein, whose regime was abhorrent.

MORE: Iraq's Baby Noor: An unfinished miracle

But regime change, however desirable, is not permitted by the Charter. If it were, the powerful nations could go round the world picking off the weak -- or more particularly the states thought to be hostile to their own ambitions."

 

[there4eyeM]

Even the Secretary General of the UN admitted, when questioned closely by a journalist, that the military action (called a war, though Congress did not have the courage to declare it so) illegal by international law.

 

[High_Gravity]

Is any war legal?

 

[High_Gravity]

So if the UN said it was ok you'd be good to go with invading Iraq?

 

[LilOlLady]

Even the Secretary General of the UN admitted, when questioned closely by a journalist, that the military action (called a war, though Congress did not have the courage to declare it so) illegal by international law.

NO, there were never a declaration of war. We are not legally at war with Iraq. BUT Congress has the right to declare war.

 

[there4eyeM]

Is any war legal?

'Legal', yes. A country that declares war in response to aggression has every legal right by international definitions.
When Japan attacked the US, Congress declared war. That was legal by the constitution and legal by international law.
Iraq was totally the opposite.

 

[Billo_Really]

'Legal', yes. A country that declares war in response to aggression has every legal right by international definitions.
When Japan attacked the US, Congress declared war. That was legal by the constitution and legal by international law.
Iraq was totally the opposite.

Exactly!

Article 51 of the UN Charter codifies the only two legal ways a country can attack another country with military force:

• in self-defense
• the UNSC authorizes member states to use "any means necessary"

Anything else is considered a "war of choice".

And a "war of choice", is a "war of aggression".

 

[M14 Shooter]

'Legal', yes. A country that declares war in response to aggression has every legal right by international definitions.
When Japan attacked the US, Congress declared war. That was legal by the constitution and legal by international law.
Iraq was totally the opposite.

Exactly!

Article 51 of the UN Charter codifies the only two legal ways a country can attack another country with military force:

• in self-defense
• the UNSC authorizes member states to use "any means necessary"

Anything else is considered a "war of choice".
And a "war of choice", is a "war of aggression".

-Who decides if a war is in "self defense"?
-When did the UN become the sole source and arbiter of international law?

 

[there4eyeM]

There are international treaties that define this fairly well. Congress approved US participation in these treaties. By the Constitution, that makes these treaties US law as well as international law.

The invasion of Poland by Germany was in self defense, by their interpretation. To everyone else; it was purely aggressive. Poland did not invade, attack, or even threaten Germany.

Did Iraq attack the US? Did Congress declare war?

 

[M14 Shooter]

There are international treaties that define this fairly well. Congress approved US participation in these treaties. By the Constitution, that makes these treaties US law as well as international law.

The invasion of Poland by Germany was in self defense, by their interpretation. To everyone else; it was purely aggressive. Poland did not invade, attack, or even threaten Germany.

Did Iraq attack the US? Did Congress declare war?

You did not answer my questions.

 

[Billo_Really]

-Who decides if a war is in "self defense"?

If you are attacked, it's pretty obvious your actions are in self-defense.

-When did the UN become the sole source and arbiter of international law?

When the US became a member state.

 

[Spoonman]

Even the Secretary General of the UN admitted, when questioned closely by a journalist, that the military action (called a war, though Congress did not have the courage to declare it so) illegal by international law.

NO, there were never a declaration of war. We are not legally at war with Iraq. BUT Congress has the right to declare war.

then again, congress did vote to give bush the right to go to war if he felt it was necessary.

 

[M14 Shooter]

-Who decides if a war is in "self defense"?

If you are attacked, it's pretty obvious your actions are in self-defense.

This doesn't tell me who determines if a war is in self-defense

-When did the UN become the sole source and arbiter of international law?

When the US became a member state.

How did the US (or any other state) becoming a member of the UN nullify any and every other means of creating and arbitrating international law?

 

[Spoonman]

Is any war legal?

'Legal', yes. A country that declares war in response to aggression has every legal right by international definitions.
When Japan attacked the US, Congress declared war. That was legal by the constitution and legal by international law.
Iraq was totally the opposite.

so did yugoslavia ever attack us? or what about korea? Vietnam?

 

[High_Gravity]

Basically if the UN gives the ok, the war is legal. Got it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Even the Secretary General of the UN admitted, when questioned closely by a journalist, that the military action (called a war, though Congress did not have the courage to declare it so) illegal by international law.

NO, there were never a declaration of war. We are not legally at war with Iraq. BUT Congress has the right to declare war.

then again, congress did vote to give bush the right to go to war if he felt it was necessary.

Yes. This was a declaration of war in every aspect save the actual words "we declare war in Iraq". Nothing necessitates that a declaration of war include these words, and so there's no way to soundly argue that Congress did not, in every meaningful way, declare war.

 

[there4eyeM]

There are international treaties that define this fairly well. Congress approved US participation in these treaties. By the Constitution, that makes these treaties US law as well as international law.

The invasion of Poland by Germany was in self defense, by their interpretation. To everyone else; it was purely aggressive. Poland did not invade, attack, or even threaten Germany.

Did Iraq attack the US? Did Congress declare war?

You did not answer my questions.

Did you think that was a response to your questions? It was a declaration of facts. In retrospect, however, those questions are addressed. Perhaps you just need to meditate on it.

 

[Spoonman]

NO, there were never a declaration of war. We are not legally at war with Iraq. BUT Congress has the right to declare war.

then again, congress did vote to give bush the right to go to war if he felt it was necessary.

Yes. This was a declaration of war in every aspect save the actual words "we declare war in Iraq". Nothing necessitates that a declaration of war include these words, and so there's no way to soundly argue that Congress did not, in every meaningful way, declare war.

i know, this is such a dead issue you have to wonder what the libs are trying to hide that is current by dragging it up again. it's like clinton bombing iraq to call attention away from a blowjob

 

[Billo_Really]

This doesn't tell me who determines if a war is in self-defense

That's a pretty stupid question.

How did the US (or any other state) becoming a member of the UN nullify any and every other means of creating and arbitrating international law?

Becoming a member state to the UN means that you will honor its Charter.

 

[there4eyeM]

Is any war legal?

'Legal', yes. A country that declares war in response to aggression has every legal right by international definitions.
When Japan attacked the US, Congress declared war. That was legal by the constitution and legal by international law.
Iraq was totally the opposite.

so did yugoslavia ever attack us? or what about korea? Vietnam?

Good question(s).

There are gradations of military action. Like them or not, Korea and South Vietnam were allies, or at least friends, and they were attacked. The intention was to defend them, not destroy, invade and supplant their enemies. Not that I agree with those actions necessarily, particularly Vietnam (where a settlement was interfered with by the US), but it isn't the same as a doctrine, foreign to the spirit of America, of pre-emptive war. Our forefathers would not be happy with that.