What does the U.S. flag represent post- Citizens United/McCutcheon?

[Dot Com]

CDZ thread so lets keep this civil shall we?

I was wondering what the flag represents given the SCOTUS keeps giving more power to the few as evidenced by the most recent McCutcheon decision. Flooding the political process w/ huge donations.

As some of you know, I served active-duty so patriotism is not something alien to me but find it harder and harder to care when the gov't increasingly are merely water-carriers for the well- heeled.

The Supreme Court?s McCutchon Decision Was Worse Than Citizens United - US News

The conclusion is clear: Larger contribution amounts should be interpreted as a more “robust exercise” of speech than smaller ones. In the McCutcheon case the Court has cast aside the characterization of contributions that has allowed campaign finance laws since the 1970s to withstand constitutional scrutiny.

As some also know, I said I don't bother voting anymore as the system is rigged (most people know this, thats why the country's voting participation-levels are so abysmally low.)

So, what can be done?

This guy is pretty smart so he knows theres a problem, as do I. Here's one way to address it- citizen involvement outlined in this 10 min lecture:

Lawrence Lessig: The unstoppable walk to political reform | Talk Video | TED.com

Why you should listen

Lawyer and activist Lawrence Lessig spent a decade arguing for sensible intellectual property law, updated for the digital age. He was a founding board member of Creative Commons, an organization that builds better copyright practices through principles established first by the open-source software community.

In 2007, just after his last TED Talk, Lessig announced he was leaving the field of IP and Internet policy, and moving on to a more fundamental problem that blocks all types of sensible policy -- the corrupting influence of money in American politics.

We know who the pols work for & it isn't the little guy. Do you vote knowing this? How do we go back to all people having an equal voice?

 

[AntiParty]

CDZ thread so lets keep this civil shall we?

I was wondering what the flag represents given the SCOTUS keeps giving more power to the few as evidenced by the most recent McCutcheon decision. Flooding the political process w/ huge donations.

As some of you know, I served active-duty so patriotism is not something alien to me but find it harder and harder to care when the gov't increasingly are merely water-carriers for the well- heeled.

The Supreme Court?s McCutchon Decision Was Worse Than Citizens United - US News

The conclusion is clear: Larger contribution amounts should be interpreted as a more “robust exercise” of speech than smaller ones. In the McCutcheon case the Court has cast aside the characterization of contributions that has allowed campaign finance laws since the 1970s to withstand constitutional scrutiny.

As some also know, I said I don't bother voting anymore as the system is rigged (most people know this, thats why the country's voting participation-levels are so abysmally low.

So, what can be done?

This guy is pretty smart so he knows theres a problem, as do I. Here's one way to address it- citizen involvement outlined in this 10 min lecture:

Lawrence Lessig: The unstoppable walk to political reform | Talk Video | TED.com

Why you should listen

Lawyer and activist Lawrence Lessig spent a decade arguing for sensible intellectual property law, updated for the digital age. He was a founding board member of Creative Commons, an organization that builds better copyright practices through principles established first by the open-source software community.

In 2007, just after his last TED Talk, Lessig announced he was leaving the field of IP and Internet policy, and moving on to a more fundamental problem that blocks all types of sensible policy -- the corrupting influence of money in American politics.

We know who the pols work for & it isn't the little guy. Do you vote knowing this? How do we go back to all people having an equal voice?

Anyone who repeats "Money=Speech" or "Corporations=People" are the downfall of America today.

Maybe a stripper can read my mind if I use enough "free speech"

Maybe everyone inside a Corporation that supports a specific Wing also supports that wing? Impossible. And it's illegal to force someone to vote a specific way.

GREED has taken over America. Everyone knows it. Except for the Fox News junkies.

 

[oldfart]

I was wondering what the flag represents given the SCOTUS keeps giving more power to the few as evidenced by the most recent McCutcheon decision. Flooding the political process w/ huge donations.

I was involved in the civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's when many Americans were prohibited by law from voting, and that was backed up by intimidation, bombing, and lynching. I say this to lend a bit of perspective. Americans had to fight and some died to achieve a stated goal of voting rights for all. No body ever said it would be easy. And it certainly is not irreversible. Not only are the wealthy tilting the playing field, there is a concerted movement to prevent Americans from voting.

As some of you know, I served active-duty so patriotism is not something alien to me but find it harder and harder to care when the gov't increasingly are merely water-carriers for the well- heeled.

There is a difference between patriotism and jingoism. The "America love it or leave it" crowd were never patriots. Jingoism is for an America with only people like them; patriotism is for an America striving to fulfill its ideals.

As some also know, I said I don't bother voting anymore as the system is rigged (most people know this, thats why the country's voting participation-levels are so abysmally low.

So, what can be done?.....

We know who the pols work for & it isn't the little guy. Do you vote knowing this? How do we go back to all people having an equal voice?

Well there are really two choices. One is to surrender and hope the wealthy throw us a few scraps. It's emotionally satisfying in a dark way if you like being a victim. The other is to fight back with every tool at our disposal. That takes being able to articulate what being American should mean and participating in our communities and political processes to advance those ideals.

There tend to be alternating generations; every generation goes to war with the world their fathers built and finds allies in their grandfathers. Don't be surprised at the old people who show up at rallies. Some have been at this a long time, and even when ignored, they did not go away.

 

[matchless]

I think the majority got it right in both Citizens United and McCutcheon. Political contributions are speech protected by the First Amendment, and that is a fundamental right. Giving money to a campaign you favor is no different in effect from spending your time and energy on it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I think the majority got it right in both Citizens United and McCutcheon. Political contributions are speech protected by the First Amendment, and that is a fundamental right. Giving money to a campaign you favor is no different in effect from spending your time and energy on it.

Which doesn't discount the need for campaign finance reform, where any remedy mustn't violate the Constitution.

 

[Dot Com]

There have always been a privileged few who had better access, through money and power, to access pols. The diff now is that its encoded in the law which is a big problem.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Liberals treat the flag and the Constitution like tissues, tampons and toilet paper

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There have always been a privileged few who had better access, through money and power, to access pols. The diff now is that its encoded in the law which is a big problem.

"You betcha!" -- George Soros

 

[Dot Com]

Liberal treat the flag and the Constitution like tissues, tampons and toilet paper

o really? Remember, this is the CDZ, unsubstantiated blanket statements are frowned upon.

Got anything of substance to add?

 

[Dot Com]

There have always been a privileged few who had better access, through money and power, to access pols. The diff now is that its encoded in the law which is a big problem.

"You betcha!" -- George Soros

57Frank!!! I started this thread as non-partisan and your flinging partisan poo all over it. Pllease abide by the rules of the CDZ. Last time I'll ask.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That's not even a US Flag in the OP.

Did you notice that?

 

[Dot Com]

That's not even a US Flag in the OP.

Did you notice that?

yes. I used that on purpose. It was used at the Court , during the proceedings, to show what the current gov't represents and has represented for many decades. Those are corporate logos instead of stars.

 

[boedicca]

What does the U.S. Flag represent when Progs burn it?

 

[Dot Com]

What does the U.S. Flag represent when Progs burn it?

Why don't you start a thread about it instead of trying to derail this CLEAN DEBATE ZONE thread w/ your deflection posts

 

[FA_Q2]

I actually have no problem with the 2 rulings as I agree that the ability to work for and donate to the political process is intricately tied with free speech and I believe that the court made the correct decision. The government has no right to tell me that I cannot donate or run a political commercial ad during the campaign.

How is running such an ad not speech?

The real rub here is that the OP an the recent cries seem to implicate that this new ‘flood’ of money is somehow different now than before because of these two rulings. I find that rather disingenuous because the political process has been like this all through the reform laws that essentially did nothing to actually get the influence of money out of politics. There is no greater influence now than there was before – over the last several decades moneyed interests have controlled the system completely and that has not changed one single iota. The ‘little’ guy has no more ability to make a difference in that sea of money than before. The only real difference seems to be the publicity that the same has received. Further, I think that we have already hit a critical point where more is not gaining anything. IOW, it is universally true that you are going to get diminishing returns for the amount of money that is spent on your campaign all the way until increasing your expenses gains you absolutely nothing (possibly even negative gains) and we are at that point already.

The moneyed interests are always going to affect extreme influence over the political process as long as you make it possible for the politicians to turn a greater profit for them. I fail to understand why this concept is so difficult for so many to understand. The simple reality is that when you take a billion dollar door prize for the moneyed interests to claim if they ‘win’ then the laws you erect to stop their influence are going to be irrelevant. They will change them, work around them, build in loopholes or, if all that fails, simply outright break them to gain access to that profit. That is a simple fact. The ONLY way to get the influence of the super wealthy out of the government is to remove that profit from the process. Until that happens, nothing will change at all, period.

Lastly, not voting is not going to help. Even worse, it actually helps the rich gain even more influence over the system. Money does not do one thing for a politician without people voting for them. If you really want to change the system you have to start voting for third party candidates and those candidates that are not receiving the big ticket donations. The idea that they are just going to lose and that vote is a throw away is completely incorrect. That vote is another vote for others to see and brings those types of candidates ever close to gaining enough votes to be relevant. If all those people staying home and not voting because they are tired of the asshattery of the parties actually got off their asses and voted their consciousness then we would see actual change. Unfortunately, to many think that their vote does not matter when in fact they have FAR MORE power than any campaign donation – votes is what actually wins the day. Donations are only an effort to get those votes.

 

[Dot Com]

some say that the recent ruling will bring money back out into the light & to the parties, where it used to be, as opposed to front groups who take cash & run a shadow *cough* "unaffiliated" campaign which has been the norm since Citizens United. That's not necessarily so, as we all know, if you read the paper ocassionally, that pols are frequently caught misusing *cough* "campaign contributions".

When BOTH rulings are incorrect IMO doesn't matter if the money is hidden or out in the open, it still corrupts the process.

 

[PredFan]

It's either blindly partisan or sheepishly simpleminded to deny that corporations are people.

Tying these issues to what the flag represents us a HUGE stretch, so huge as to be non-existant.

/GOOFY THREAD

 

[PredFan]

some say that the recent ruling will bring money back out into the light & to the parties, where it used to be, as opposed to front groups who take cash & run a shadow *cough* "unaffiliated" campaign which has been the norm since Citizens United. That's not necessarily so as we all know, if you read the paper ocassionally, that pols are frequently caught misusing *cough* "campaign contributions".

When BOTH rulings are incorrect IMO doesn't matter if the money is hidden or out in the open, it still corrupts the process.

You do realize that money existed inside the process before citizens united right? That corruption existed before either of those decisions? I'm sure you do.

 

[oldfart]

I was wondering what the flag represents given the SCOTUS keeps giving more power to the few as evidenced by the most recent McCutcheon decision....

As some of you know, I served active-duty so patriotism is not something alien to me but find it harder and harder to care when the gov't increasingly are merely water-carriers for the well- heeled.

First, I thank you for your service.

Second, I share your dismay that we seem headed to making political influence and justice itself a commodity to be brokered and sold.

For me the flag and similar symbols and icons do not and have never belonged to particular political movements, parties, candidates, or factions. They belong to the whole of what America aspires to be. In Lincoln's reckoning, this stretches back at least to 1774 and stretches as far into the future as anyone will hear the "mystic echos".

What America means is an aspirational goal. We will never fully meet it, but we should always try. It means a commitment to individual liberty and community responsibility; to equal opportunity and compassion as well. No one can take those aspirations away from us as long as we believe in them. They can only be lost if we abandon them. To fight for them does not mean we will win, but it is better to fail in a fight for the good than to not fight at all.

There is a false dichotomy of ends and means. One of the basic concepts of America is that the highest order of goals is the means we will not use to achieve lesser goals. Freedom cannot be compromised for security, lest we end up with neither. From this springs the dedication to the rule of law. We cannot save constitutional government by ignoring and circumventing the Constitution. Even Lincoln recognized that some of his actions might be extra-constitutional, justified by necessity, and he deferred to the highest constitutional authority, the legislative branch, to approve or reverse his actions, and if necessary to replace him. The gap between Lincoln's call for a special session of Congress to be held July 4, 1861 and current theories of the powers of the executive is striking.

So I believe that the flag represents an America whose greatness does not depend upon some doctrine of American exceptionalism or manifest destiny. We are not anointed by God (if one exists) for any special purpose. Rather we are the happy inheritors of a dream common to mankind, which succeeding generations have pledged life, honor, and treasure to advance. A dream where every person has innate worth and is entitled to opportunity, where government is the servant of the governed, and where all realize we are only as free, only as successful, and only as secure, as the least among us.

There have always been threats to this dream and to the basic concept of America. There have always been advocates of the Lesser America where the dream was only for people of a certain color or a certain religion, where the rule of law covered most but not the most powerful, where liberty was divisible and justice negotiable in the marketplace. Lesser America has been advanced with fear and violence, terrorism and corruption, usually hidden in the darkness. It needs to wrap itself in great symbols and high purpose to deflect from its true agenda. Unfortunately the flag has often been such a symbol, just as a bastardized view of our history has been used to justify every evil act done in the name of America.

It is not easy to separate the manipulative from the misguided. At the end, we can only look at actions as well as rhetoric and determine what vision of America an individual or group is seeking to promote. Some will be generally close to what I have tried to describe here, but others will be headed toward the "Lesser America" of diminished liberty, opportunity, and security for most.

As it always has been, each American must judge for themselves what positions reflect the true American dream, issue by issue. We have a duty, issue by issue, regardless of ideology, to support and advance the ideals of America and to expose and resist the calls of particularist interests fighting for a Lesser America. It has been this way since the inception and will never end. Some days we will wake up and be appalled at where some of our friends have gone, and be surprised at who will make common cause with us from among our former opponents. So perhaps the American dream includes a willingness to accept that conditions change and people can learn. Openness to good ideas should be part of our values.

I know I come off as Pollyannish. I have been through some of the truly dark days of America, in some of the places where the dark was a Stygian blackness. Nihilism is not a place to remain very long. Passive acceptance of evil is a good prescription for depression. For me, I am a cheerful warrior for what I believe in. When I lose I have disappointment, but no regrets if I have done all I could, consistent with my values. At the end of the day, that is enough for me.

I extend you my best wishes. I hope you look around and see those who fight the fight for what you believe in. You know how to take it from there. And never, EVER let anyone talk like the flag you served belongs any less to you than to anyone else. It belongs to every American, and especially to those who try to advance the values it stands for.

 

[Dot Com]

I think you described what the flag USED to mean. Now it means the United Corporations of America.