What firearms are protected by the 2nd Amendment

[JakeStarkey]

Very, very, very few, T. That is why we remember Washington and Franklin, because they were so rare.

 

[BrianH]

You expect me to believe that a bunch of guys who owned slaves and didn't even free their own children found slavery abhorrent?

Not much on history, are you?


George Washington: "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it."

—Letter to Morris, April 12, 1786, in George Washington, A Collection, ed. W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Classics, 1989), 319.
​

John Adams: "Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…. I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in …abhorrence."

—Letter to Evans, June 8, 1819, in Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams ed. Adrienne Koch et al. (New York: Knopf, 1946), 209-10.
​

Benjamin Franklin: "Slavery is …an atrocious debasement of human nature."

—"An Address to the Public from the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery" (1789), Benjamin Franklin, Writings ed. J.A. Leo Lemay (New York: Library of America, 1987), 1154.
​

Alexander Hamilton: "The laws of certain states …give an ownership in the service of negroes as personal property…. But being men, by the laws of God and nature, they were capable of acquiring liberty—and when the captor in war …thought fit to give them liberty, the gift was not only valid, but irrevocable."

—Philo Camillus no. 2 (1795), in Papers of Alexander Hamilton, ed. Harold C. Syrett (New York: Columbia University Press, 1961-), 19:101-2.
​

James Madison: "We have seen the mere distinction of colour made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man."

—Speech at Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787, in Max Farrand, ed., Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1937), 1:135.
​

SOURCE

________________________________

JEFFERSON:


Jefferson also wrote the Ordinance of 1784, a preliminary draft of the Northwest Ordinance, which would govern the land between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River. Jefferson included in his bill a clause that would have prohibited slavery in these new territories after 1800. When this measure was blocked in Congress by just one vote, Jefferson lamented, "The voice of a single individual ... would have prevented this abominable crime from spreading itself over the new country. Thus we see the fate of millions unborn hanging on the tongue of one man, and Heaven was silent in that awful moment!" Jefferson, certain that God's wrath would not be forever stilled, said: "We must await with patience the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that He is preparing the deliverance of these, our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of justice will awaken to their distress, and by diffusing light and liberality among their oppressors, or, at length, by His exterminating thunder, manifest His attention to the things of this world....

It goes on...there were many of the Founders that found the practice abhorent...and the 3/5ths compromise was a way to ensure that eventually the practice would be stopped, and that the Southern States that were primary slave holding States would also ratify the Constitution.

All you have to do is look...so please next time? Don't be so quick to dismiss.

Words mean nothing.

Did they free their slaves?


Did they free their children?


I can find quotes from Mao that make him sound like Jesus- but the actions he and his followers undertook would render them meaningless, too. Kinda like all those 'family values' Republicans

Yes dip shit, shortly after the separation from Britain, many of the FF did release their slaves. Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams are just some of them Franklin became the president of an abolitionist movement in 1785, Washington became more and more against slavery around the Revolution and released his slaves after the death of his wife. He even made sure that many of the children were taken care of and received education. Read a little history before you start preaching nonsense..

 

[JBeukema]

Not much on history, are you?


George Washington: "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it."

—Letter to Morris, April 12, 1786, in George Washington, A Collection, ed. W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Classics, 1989), 319.
​

John Adams: "Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…. I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in …abhorrence."

—Letter to Evans, June 8, 1819, in Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams ed. Adrienne Koch et al. (New York: Knopf, 1946), 209-10.
​

Benjamin Franklin: "Slavery is …an atrocious debasement of human nature."

—"An Address to the Public from the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery" (1789), Benjamin Franklin, Writings ed. J.A. Leo Lemay (New York: Library of America, 1987), 1154.
​

Alexander Hamilton: "The laws of certain states …give an ownership in the service of negroes as personal property…. But being men, by the laws of God and nature, they were capable of acquiring liberty—and when the captor in war …thought fit to give them liberty, the gift was not only valid, but irrevocable."

—Philo Camillus no. 2 (1795), in Papers of Alexander Hamilton, ed. Harold C. Syrett (New York: Columbia University Press, 1961-), 19:101-2.
​

James Madison: "We have seen the mere distinction of colour made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man."

—Speech at Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787, in Max Farrand, ed., Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1937), 1:135.
​

SOURCE

________________________________

JEFFERSON:


Jefferson also wrote the Ordinance of 1784, a preliminary draft of the Northwest Ordinance, which would govern the land between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River. Jefferson included in his bill a clause that would have prohibited slavery in these new territories after 1800. When this measure was blocked in Congress by just one vote, Jefferson lamented, "The voice of a single individual ... would have prevented this abominable crime from spreading itself over the new country. Thus we see the fate of millions unborn hanging on the tongue of one man, and Heaven was silent in that awful moment!" Jefferson, certain that God's wrath would not be forever stilled, said: "We must await with patience the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that He is preparing the deliverance of these, our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of justice will awaken to their distress, and by diffusing light and liberality among their oppressors, or, at length, by His exterminating thunder, manifest His attention to the things of this world....

It goes on...there were many of the Founders that found the practice abhorent...and the 3/5ths compromise was a way to ensure that eventually the practice would be stopped, and that the Southern States that were primary slave holding States would also ratify the Constitution.

All you have to do is look...so please next time? Don't be so quick to dismiss.

Words mean nothing.

Did they free their slaves?


Did they free their children?


I can find quotes from Mao that make him sound like Jesus- but the actions he and his followers undertook would render them meaningless, too. Kinda like all those 'family values' Republicans

Franklin Freed his as did Jefferson, Washington...a few did...upon their deaths and paid pensions.

Ah, 'Toby, I'll be dead tomorrow. I no longer have a use for you. Once I'm dead and have no more use for a house ******, I don't care where you go or what becomes of you- I'm done with you. Tell the was basin and my axe the same thing.'

Yes, great men.

 

[percysunshine]

There should be a 6 day waiting period for the purchase of nuclear weapons....um...and a background check.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I think I just said that stupid. Knowing what the Constitution is about would be part of the critical thinking skills. And knowing whats in it would cover the other.

No, you just said that you don't think for yourself because the constitution does it for you.

I said that I apply my critical thinking skills to what is in the constitution.

Big difference....stupid.

Not a real huge need for your critical thinking skills, but I would suggest you read it and look up the hard words in a dictionary.

Oh really?

I'm not the one that said thinking for oneself is a bad thing.

I fully support the concept of critical thinking. Someone else here does not.

 

[Ernie S.]

The left has NEVER cared what the Constitution said. That is why we are in the mess we are now.

Because slavery was cool- the constitution said so

Get over it!!! The Constitution no longer permits slavery. Slavery, woman's suffrage and the Wilson/Sherman Compromise were all addressed by amendment.

 

[Ernie S.]

No, you just said that you don't think for yourself because the constitution does it for you.

I said that I apply my critical thinking skills to what is in the constitution.

Big difference....stupid.

Not a real huge need for your critical thinking skills, but I would suggest you read it and look up the hard words in a dictionary.

Oh really?

I'm not the one that said thinking for oneself is a bad thing.

I fully support the concept of critical thinking. Someone else here does not.

I give up! Critical thinking requires a knowledge of the subject.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not much on history, are you?


George Washington: "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it."

—Letter to Morris, April 12, 1786, in George Washington, A Collection, ed. W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Classics, 1989), 319.
​

John Adams: "Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…. I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in …abhorrence."

—Letter to Evans, June 8, 1819, in Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams ed. Adrienne Koch et al. (New York: Knopf, 1946), 209-10.
​

Benjamin Franklin: "Slavery is …an atrocious debasement of human nature."

—"An Address to the Public from the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery" (1789), Benjamin Franklin, Writings ed. J.A. Leo Lemay (New York: Library of America, 1987), 1154.
​

Alexander Hamilton: "The laws of certain states …give an ownership in the service of negroes as personal property…. But being men, by the laws of God and nature, they were capable of acquiring liberty—and when the captor in war …thought fit to give them liberty, the gift was not only valid, but irrevocable."

—Philo Camillus no. 2 (1795), in Papers of Alexander Hamilton, ed. Harold C. Syrett (New York: Columbia University Press, 1961-), 19:101-2.
​

James Madison: "We have seen the mere distinction of colour made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man."

—Speech at Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787, in Max Farrand, ed., Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1937), 1:135.
​

SOURCE

________________________________

JEFFERSON:


Jefferson also wrote the Ordinance of 1784, a preliminary draft of the Northwest Ordinance, which would govern the land between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River. Jefferson included in his bill a clause that would have prohibited slavery in these new territories after 1800. When this measure was blocked in Congress by just one vote, Jefferson lamented, "The voice of a single individual ... would have prevented this abominable crime from spreading itself over the new country. Thus we see the fate of millions unborn hanging on the tongue of one man, and Heaven was silent in that awful moment!" Jefferson, certain that God's wrath would not be forever stilled, said: "We must await with patience the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that He is preparing the deliverance of these, our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of justice will awaken to their distress, and by diffusing light and liberality among their oppressors, or, at length, by His exterminating thunder, manifest His attention to the things of this world....

It goes on...there were many of the Founders that found the practice abhorent...and the 3/5ths compromise was a way to ensure that eventually the practice would be stopped, and that the Southern States that were primary slave holding States would also ratify the Constitution.

All you have to do is look...so please next time? Don't be so quick to dismiss.

Words mean nothing.

Did they free their slaves?


Did they free their children?


I can find quotes from Mao that make him sound like Jesus- but the actions he and his followers undertook would render them meaningless, too. Kinda like all those 'family values' Republicans

Yes dip shit, shortly after the separation from Britain, many of the FF did release their slaves. Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams are just some of them Franklin became the president of an abolitionist movement in 1785, Washington became more and more against slavery around the Revolution and released his slaves after the death of his wife. He even made sure that many of the children were taken care of and received education. Read a little history before you start preaching nonsense..

Brian, please read instead of removing all doubt that you are a homer.

Very, very, very freed their slaves, very few. Don't look silly again, please.

 

[The T]

Not much on history, are you?


George Washington: "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it."

—Letter to Morris, April 12, 1786, in George Washington, A Collection, ed. W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Classics, 1989), 319.
​

John Adams: "Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…. I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in …abhorrence."

—Letter to Evans, June 8, 1819, in Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams ed. Adrienne Koch et al. (New York: Knopf, 1946), 209-10.
​

Benjamin Franklin: "Slavery is …an atrocious debasement of human nature."

—"An Address to the Public from the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery" (1789), Benjamin Franklin, Writings ed. J.A. Leo Lemay (New York: Library of America, 1987), 1154.
​

Alexander Hamilton: "The laws of certain states …give an ownership in the service of negroes as personal property…. But being men, by the laws of God and nature, they were capable of acquiring liberty—and when the captor in war …thought fit to give them liberty, the gift was not only valid, but irrevocable."

—Philo Camillus no. 2 (1795), in Papers of Alexander Hamilton, ed. Harold C. Syrett (New York: Columbia University Press, 1961-), 19:101-2.
​

James Madison: "We have seen the mere distinction of colour made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man."

—Speech at Constitutional Convention, June 6, 1787, in Max Farrand, ed., Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1937), 1:135.
​

SOURCE

________________________________

JEFFERSON:


Jefferson also wrote the Ordinance of 1784, a preliminary draft of the Northwest Ordinance, which would govern the land between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River. Jefferson included in his bill a clause that would have prohibited slavery in these new territories after 1800. When this measure was blocked in Congress by just one vote, Jefferson lamented, "The voice of a single individual ... would have prevented this abominable crime from spreading itself over the new country. Thus we see the fate of millions unborn hanging on the tongue of one man, and Heaven was silent in that awful moment!" Jefferson, certain that God's wrath would not be forever stilled, said: "We must await with patience the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that He is preparing the deliverance of these, our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of justice will awaken to their distress, and by diffusing light and liberality among their oppressors, or, at length, by His exterminating thunder, manifest His attention to the things of this world....

It goes on...there were many of the Founders that found the practice abhorent...and the 3/5ths compromise was a way to ensure that eventually the practice would be stopped, and that the Southern States that were primary slave holding States would also ratify the Constitution.

All you have to do is look...so please next time? Don't be so quick to dismiss.

Words mean nothing.

Did they free their slaves?


Did they free their children?


I can find quotes from Mao that make him sound like Jesus- but the actions he and his followers undertook would render them meaningless, too. Kinda like all those 'family values' Republicans

Yes dip shit, shortly after the separation from Britain, many of the FF did release their slaves. Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams are just some of them Franklin became the president of an abolitionist movement in 1785, Washington became more and more against slavery around the Revolution and released his slaves after the death of his wife. He even made sure that many of the children were taken care of and received education. Read a little history before you start preaching nonsense..

In fact King George III poo-pooed the notion of abolition in the Colonies...

King George Orders That Slavery NOT be Abolished in the Colonies

The King in council, on Dec. 10, 1770, issued an instruction, under his own hand, commanding the governor of Virginia, " upon pain of the highest displeasure, to assent to no law by which the importation of slaves should be in any respect prohibited or obstructed." In 1772 the Virginia Assembly earnestly discussed the question, " How shall we get rid of the great evil?"​

Jefferson, Henry, Lee, and other leading men anxiously desired to rid the colony of it. " The interest of the country," it was said, " manifestly requires the total expulsion of them." The Assembly finally resolved to address the King himself on the subject, who, in council, had compelled the toleration of the traffic, They pleaded with him to remove all restraints upon their efforts to stop the importation of slaves, which they called " a very pernicious commerce." In this matter Virginia represented the sentiments of all the colonies, and the King knew it; but the monarch " stood in the path of humanity and made himself the pillar of the colonial slave-trade."​

Ashamed to reject the earnest and solemn appeal of the Virginians, he evaded a reply. The conduct of the King caused Jefferson to write as follows in his first draft of the Declaration of Independence: "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, capturing and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur a miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce."​

'Nuff said. Some have an axe to grind on this issue until their axe is a useless, worthless nub. In my view? I find it abhorant Congress waited to have this issue decided on the field of battle, and for a POTUS to finally make it so after so much bloodshed. It was too long in coming.

 

[JFK_USA]

I will go with what the founding fathers had. Non-automatic weapons were not around so I doubt if they were around they would make legal assault and automatic weapons. I mean seriously, you don't need an automatic weapon to shoot a deer or to defend yourself.

So the high capacity magazines, assault rifles should be outlawed.

How do you defend yourself against a criminal (who wouldn't follow a law) that has acquired an automatic weapon? Don't get me wrong, I don't own any fully automatic weapons, but the problem is tha the criminals obtain these things and use them.

That was the second question I had when reading JFK's post. The first I had was "What if you are attacked by more than one assailant?"

It is folly to think that banning high cap mags and assault weapons will remove them from our world. That horse is not only out of the barn, he is 9 States away.

On an interesting side-note, we have been selling the crap out of high caps since the Giffords shooting, and supplies are starting to dry up. Knee-jerk reactions on either side of the issue are a gun dealer's best friend

If the 0.0000001% chance that you face multiple gunmen, I would still say you don't need a 50 caliber or AK 47. You need to not piss multiple people off to want to kill you. Besides I think if you were that person, you would have those guns illegally anyways.

But I view it as what does a law abiding citizen have that is reasonable and able to defend yourself INSIDE your house.

See I believe in some forms of the Castle Doctrine. I don't believe in being able to shoot someone who is outside your house because my girlfriend's cousin was drunk and walked home and lives in a cookie cutter neighborhood, knocked on the wrong door really hard because his friends at the party took his keys so he didn't drive home. Got shot twice by a shotgun. One in the arm and one in the chest. He got charged with Burglary for a house he never entered. Lets just say he live in a state where they fear Sharia Law so much, they had to have a vote to ban it.

He may of knocked on the wrong door, but he didn't deserve that. Honestly I think many conservatives just want to kill someone and not have to get punished for it. They always seems very mad at the world and hate everybody in it. There emo but all grown up. Liberals see the good in people and that most people choose to be good rather than being evil.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Not a real huge need for your critical thinking skills, but I would suggest you read it and look up the hard words in a dictionary.

Oh really?

I'm not the one that said thinking for oneself is a bad thing.

I fully support the concept of critical thinking. Someone else here does not.

I give up! Critical thinking requires a knowledge of the subject.

Which is what I said.

 

[The T]

Back to Firearms folks. Sorry for the O/T distraction.

 

[JakeStarkey]

T, the King was talking about importation not abolition. Please read carefully. And regardless of all of their talk, slavery remained, and required a great civil war to end it. The sin was spilled on all of America because of the Founders' failure.

 

[The T]

T, the King was talking about importation not abolition. Please read carefully. And regardless of all of their talk, slavery remained, and required a great civil war to end it. The sin was spilled on all of America because of the Founders' failure.

I realize that. It was the SLAVE TRADE and any part of it was wrong...period.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then do not defend the Founders' failures about slavery.

 

[JBeukema]

T, the King was talking about importation not abolition. Please read carefully. And regardless of all of their talk, slavery remained, and required a great civil war to end it. The sin was spilled on all of America because of the Founders' failure.

I realize that. It was the SLAVE TRADE and any part of it was wrong...period.

Making the FF and COTUS wrong

And COTUS prevented any amendment to abolish slavery, btw


Meaning that if you believe in the constitution, you believe that abolishing slavery in 1807 would have been evil and wrong because it would have been unconstitutional.


Sometimes the Law is simply wrong.

 

[BrianH]

T, the King was talking about importation not abolition. Please read carefully. And regardless of all of their talk, slavery remained, and required a great civil war to end it. The sin was spilled on all of America because of the Founders' failure.

I realize that. It was the SLAVE TRADE and any part of it was wrong...period.

Making the FF and COTUS wrong

And COTUS prevented any amendment to abolish slavery, btw


Meaning that if you believe in the constitution, you believe that abolishing slavery in 1807 would have been evil and wrong because it would have been unconstitutional.


Sometimes the Law is simply wrong.

The FF new that if they abolished slavery then the southern half of the colonies would secede from the Union, just as they did in 1865.

 

[JakeStarkey]

BrianH, there was no union, only a confederation under specified, weak articles. The FF knew that to get a union they would have to sell out the African American. They did so willingly, quite willingly, it seems.

 

[The T]

I realize that. It was the SLAVE TRADE and any part of it was wrong...period.

Making the FF and COTUS wrong

And COTUS prevented any amendment to abolish slavery, btw


Meaning that if you believe in the constitution, you believe that abolishing slavery in 1807 would have been evil and wrong because it would have been unconstitutional.


Sometimes the Law is simply wrong.

The FF new that if they abolished slavery then the southern half of the colonies would secede from the Union, just as they did in 1865.

Exactly, and thus the 3/5ths Compromise. (And it wasn't counting negroes as 3/5th of a person. That is a LIE).

 

[JakeStarkey]

Making the FF and COTUS wrong

And COTUS prevented any amendment to abolish slavery, btw


Meaning that if you believe in the constitution, you believe that abolishing slavery in 1807 would have been evil and wrong because it would have been unconstitutional.


Sometimes the Law is simply wrong.

The FF new that if they abolished slavery then the southern half of the colonies would secede from the Union, just as they did in 1865.

Exactly, and thus the 3/5ths Compromise. (And it wasn't counting negroes as 3/5th of a person. That is a LIE).

OK, tell us t-rex what that is a lie.