what is a liberal and which historical leaders were liberals?

[Charles_Main]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

It's a very tough question because the meanings of words like Liberal Evolve with the time. Liberal as compared to what? I mean JFK was considered a Liberal Democrat, but by today's standards he was actually rather conservative.

IMO as the American People have moved slowly to the left, what is considered Liberal has moved as well. Hell today you are considered a right wing radical if you even talk about say cutting spending, or possible actually securing our border. Just 10 Years ago, those were not far right ideas, they were right in the center.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

Corporations want big intrusive controlling governments to broker trade deals, protect intellectual property rights, and have our military protect their "interests" across the globe. I guess their using our court systems and being able to tie up judgments against them in appeals courts for decades (like the Exxon-Valdez case)until a ruling comes along that suits their fancy and knocks the original ruling against them way way down in dollar amount, could be included as corporations being liberals.
Corporations used big intrusive government (supreme court) to rule that they were citizens even!! They're for sure liberals, don't you think?

But what I don't understand is why conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes and even no taxes for these liberal freeloading citizen corporations. Shouldn't they pay for all the services rendered them by our politicians, courts, and military?

they do so when they pay income taxes, so taxing them again is a double tax.

aside from that, the Fed should have nothing to do with roads anymore.

 

[Harry Dresden]

My problem with the GOP is their Propaganda Machine. The hate, character assassination, lies, misinformation, couldn't survive any real debate, but half the GOP lives in a BS alternate universe. See sig pp 3- and aren't told the bad news pp1. A disgrace.

but you never bitch about the Democrats propaganda machine Frankie....and their hate and bullshit....i wonder why....

 

[Harry Dresden]

i'd like someone to actually explain to me what the similarities really are between obama and hitler, stalin and marx. i mean, without saying, "cuz they r commies, duh, libturd." because for anyone who isn't a fucking idiot, that comparison is ridicu-fucking-liciously stupid.

probably the same difference that was between Bush and those guys....

 

[LoneLaugher]

Yeah! The liberals have a hate Machine and there are liberals named Bush!

It's a deflection parade and Harry is the Grand Marshall

 

[bripat9643]

Ahh modern day definitions do not apply to pre modern day definitions of liberals and conservatives.

It was very liberal and progeressive to want to break away from england. It was conservative to resist that.
Just an example of how true liberals and conservatives are supposed to be.
Both sides are now pretty much corporatists.

You and every other "lib" in this forum would have been kissing King George's ass.

 

[bripat9643]

Hitler built the Autobahn.

It was an 'infrastructure project'...

Yep. It was along the same line as Obama's "stimulus." It created "shovel ready jobs."

 

[uscitizen]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

It's a very tough question because the meanings of words like Liberal Evolve with the time. Liberal as compared to what? I mean JFK was considered a Liberal Democrat, but by today's standards he was actually rather conservative.

IMO as the American People have moved slowly to the left, what is considered Liberal has moved as well. Hell today you are considered a right wing radical if you even talk about say cutting spending, or possible actually securing our border. Just 10 Years ago, those were not far right ideas, they were right in the center.

You mean like those far right wingers that supported Bush?

 

[francoHFW]

My problem with the GOP is their Propaganda Machine. The hate, character assassination, lies, misinformation, couldn't survive any real debate, but half the GOP lives in a BS alternate universe. See sig pp 3- and aren't told the bad news pp1. A disgrace.

but you never bitch about the Democrats propaganda machine Frankie....and their hate and bullshit....i wonder why....

Because there isn't one. See my sig pp3- everyone of those lies comes out, they're repeated on 20 google pages of lockstep orgs, institutes, websites, blogs etc etc. within an hour.

A) Dems don't lie and B)that doesn't happen - it's called the real world, dupe. No BS, no hate. Just trying to keep up with the BS- ie Media Matters and Huffpo- not hundreds of bought off charlatans... that make your bs alternate universe.

The more you follow the Pub Propaganda Machine, the less you know...

 

[g5000]

"Fallacy of the excluded middle. Try again."?

Huh? The Principle of Excluded Middle asserts that any statement is either true of false

You're correct, I didn't and don't understand you.

You argued that if we don't favor the massive government intrusion into our lives in the name of "safety" to protect us from the bogeyman du jour that a person has to be in favor of doing nothing at all.

Fallacy of the excluded middle.

 

[g5000]

"Fallacy of the excluded middle. Try again."?

Huh? The Principle of Excluded Middle asserts that any statement is either true of false

You're correct, I didn't and don't understand you.

What is that tactic called then, to attach an assumption and exclude the other possible explanations or conditions otherwise.

Exactly. That is a fallacy of the excluded middle.

Is it more like a strawman argument? Where you define the situation in a false way to begin with, just to strike it down or in this case argue that people are being hypocritical about it when it may not have happened that way?

Yes, it is a strawman argument as well. "If you don't agree with my position then you must believe X."

 

[Seawytch]

You are wrong on all counts but keep trying. Maybe you'll get one eventually. How are these people ALL Liberals again?

Hitler built the Autobahn.

Hitler destoyed a culture, murdered millions and left Germany in ruins.

No kidding? I'd only heard about the Autobahn! Damn. Must have skipped that day. (BTW, my original post about the Autobahn was intended to be facetious)

 

[g5000]

President Obama doesn't think those things are bad. He supports the DHS and the TSA, reauthorized the Patriot Act, signed the NDAA and while Obama called for more oversight of extraordinary rendition, he certainly did not end it. Similarly, Obama spoke out against 'water-boarding' but didn't seem to mind that "enhanced interrogations" lead to the finding Bin Laden.

I see what you did there. There is no evidence torture led to the finding of OBL. This attitude also is a fallacy of the excluded middle which assumes torture was the only way to find Obama.

While neither of us could really know for sure, I based my statement on what was said by a member of the US Senate Intelligence Committee in an interview with CNBC:

“The information that eventually led us to this compound was the direct result of enhanced interrogations; one can conclude if we had not used enhanced interrogations, we would not have come to yesterday's action”

So a politician said that. A politician. Um...you think that politician might have had an agenda? There is no actual evidence that claim is true.

This justification of torture business is the thing which sickens me above and beyond everything else the fucking rabid assholes who have kidnapped my party do.

These shitbirds believe torture is okay if we do it, and live by the credo "the ends justifies the means". That is right out of Hayek and his warning about totalitarian motherfuckers like them.

If the cops beat a robbery suspect until he confessed, would that justify beating robbery suspects?

They have a total lack of imagination. It never fucking occurs to the retards that there are other more effective means of acquiring intelligence. Methods that were being used until some assholes rode in and took over so they could live out their sadistic catharsis fantasies.

I detest the defenders of torture almost as much as I detest the terrorists themselves.

 

[jasonnfree]

Corporations want big intrusive controlling governments to broker trade deals, protect intellectual property rights, and have our military protect their "interests" across the globe. I guess their using our court systems and being able to tie up judgments against them in appeals courts for decades (like the Exxon-Valdez case)until a ruling comes along that suits their fancy and knocks the original ruling against them way way down in dollar amount, could be included as corporations being liberals.
Corporations used big intrusive government (supreme court) to rule that they were citizens even!! They're for sure liberals, don't you think?

But what I don't understand is why conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes and even no taxes for these liberal freeloading citizen corporations. Shouldn't they pay for all the services rendered them by our politicians, courts, and military?

they do so when they pay income taxes, so taxing them again is a double tax.

aside from that, the Fed should have nothing to do with roads anymore.

How are they being taxed again? I know they pay taxes, and as little as possible if they can help it and conservatives think this is only proper. Some think corporations should pay no taxes. What is the roads and Feds have anything to do with anything? My point is corporations use a lot of services provided by the government including the military, which makes it safe for corporations to operate for profit internationally. And to add insult to injury, some of these corporations pay no taxes in some years like Exxon did a few years back. This is getting something for nothing so I say corporations are liberals using the criteria of modern conservatives. Defining what a liberal is was the point of the thread so I thought.

 

[Two Thumbs]

But what I don't understand is why conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes and even no taxes for these liberal freeloading citizen corporations. Shouldn't they pay for all the services rendered them by our politicians, courts, and military?

they do so when they pay income taxes, so taxing them again is a double tax.

aside from that, the Fed should have nothing to do with roads anymore.

How are they being taxed again? I know they pay taxes, and as little as possible if they can help it and conservatives think this is only proper. Some think corporations should pay no taxes. What is the roads and Feds have anything to do with anything? My point is corporations use a lot of services provided by the government including the military, which makes it safe for corporations to operate for profit internationally. And to add insult to injury, some of these corporations pay no taxes in some years like Exxon did a few years back. This is getting something for nothing so I say corporations are liberals using the criteria of modern conservatives. Defining what a liberal is was the point of the thread so I thought.

You're crying about corporations

nothing more, nothing less

 

[jasonnfree]

they do so when they pay income taxes, so taxing them again is a double tax.

aside from that, the Fed should have nothing to do with roads anymore.

How are they being taxed again? I know they pay taxes, and as little as possible if they can help it and conservatives think this is only proper. Some think corporations should pay no taxes. What is the roads and Feds have anything to do with anything? My point is corporations use a lot of services provided by the government including the military, which makes it safe for corporations to operate for profit internationally. And to add insult to injury, some of these corporations pay no taxes in some years like Exxon did a few years back. This is getting something for nothing so I say corporations are liberals using the criteria of modern conservatives. Defining what a liberal is was the point of the thread so I thought.

You're crying about corporations

nothing more, nothing less

I'm not crying. I'm discussing what is a liberal by todays standards like the thread invited others to do. Why respond when you have nothing worthwhile to say?

 

[Darkwind]

Ahh modern day definitions do not apply to pre modern day definitions of liberals and conservatives.

It was very liberal and progeressive to want to break away from england. It was conservative to resist that.
Just an example of how true liberals and conservatives are supposed to be.
Both sides are now pretty much corporatists.

Conservative has always meant against government.

Breaking away from England was breaking away from an overbearing and liberty stealing government.

Just an example of how more things are redefined, they remain the same.

 

[Two Thumbs]

How are they being taxed again? I know they pay taxes, and as little as possible if they can help it and conservatives think this is only proper. Some think corporations should pay no taxes. What is the roads and Feds have anything to do with anything? My point is corporations use a lot of services provided by the government including the military, which makes it safe for corporations to operate for profit internationally. And to add insult to injury, some of these corporations pay no taxes in some years like Exxon did a few years back. This is getting something for nothing so I say corporations are liberals using the criteria of modern conservatives. Defining what a liberal is was the point of the thread so I thought.

You're crying about corporations

nothing more, nothing less

I'm not crying. I'm discussing what is a liberal by todays standards like the thread invited others to do. Why respond when you have nothing worthwhile to say?

Liar

corporations can't be liberals or conservatives

You want to bitch that corps don't pay enough taxes, which is what you are talking about, start your own thread.

tons will join in, you'll even get rep

 

[ReallyMeow]

Conservative has always meant against government.

No, idiot, against the govt by being the govt doesnt make the least bit of sense. conservatives agenda has always been to conserve society by being the government. this radical destroy all government institutions hysteria they have developed is a recent invention; they have been infected by the same mind plague that made the soviet union fall apart. "Hey we could spend money fixing that bridge, that we know is going to fall down, but fuck it, that just means we have to tax our donors to pay for it and they hate that"

 

[GuyPinestra]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

Corporations want big intrusive controlling governments to broker trade deals, protect intellectual property rights, and have our military protect their "interests" across the globe. I guess their using our court systems and being able to tie up judgments against them in appeals courts for decades (like the Exxon-Valdez case)until a ruling comes along that suits their fancy and knocks the original ruling against them way way down in dollar amount, could be included as corporations being liberals.
Corporations used big intrusive government (supreme court) to rule that they were citizens even!! They're for sure liberals, don't you think?

But what I don't understand is why conservatives are always pushing for lower taxes and even no taxes for these liberal freeloading citizen corporations. Shouldn't they pay for all the services rendered them by our politicians, courts, and military?

Jason, do you really think corporations pay taxes?

Don't you realize that corporate taxes, REGARDLESS OF THEIR AMOUNT, are paid by that corporations CUSTOMERS?

Wake up and smell the bullshit, dude, there is NO SUCH THING as a 'corporate tax'!!