What is a small government libertarian?

[ScienceRocks]

I don't want SMALL GOVERNMENT. I'd vote for someone that wanted a more efficient government, but never small. America needs science institutions, infrastructure, education and regulations. Maybe not the bloated regs in some areas, but we do need many of them.

We can't be electing people that think we can scrap everything and go back to the 18th century. It doesn't work and will turn us into a back water.

Straw man argument. You said it all when you said you didn't want a small Gov't. You support the nanny state we have today instead of individualism...................

I don't support wefare for all, but I don't support corporations shitting on the worker either. We have the greatest science institutions on the planet and some of the best infrastructure. Want to remain a first world country? Well, you may want to tone down the hatred on what made us into one. This isn't centered around the private sector...I love the private sector and I bash people on the left that want to harm it, but the rich that run it are out of control and take more than their fair share of the benefits of the corporations they head.

The entire libertarian argument just doesn't make any sense Throwing someone on the street and turning corporations into our overlords isn't individualism. In fact it is stupidty and will turn the less capable among us into peons just as fast as welfare will.

 

[eagle1462010]

Dad can't do any post without cut and paste.

He spams threads with endless pastes.............Stop with the pastes and actually show up for an honest debate every once and a while Dad.

BTW the Federalist papers ditch your arguments all over the place. Ancient Greece would be proud of you though....................

 

[Dad2three]

Why Our Founders Feared a Democracy

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: "From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage." (Emphasis added)

James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 10:

In a pure democracy, "there is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual."

At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said, "... that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy."

John Adams said, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

Chief Justice John Marshall observed,

"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."

"James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 10:"

Ah yes, the propaganda used to get NY to sign off on a STRONG FEDERAL GOV'T!


THIS MADISON:


Madison was thwarted on a wide range of minor and not-so-minor points, including two issues — a federal "negative" (veto) over the states and proportional representation in both houses of Congress — that he considered crucial to his dream of a government that would safeguard private rights and still promote the public good.


James Madison "Godfather of the Constitution" - The Early America Review, Summer 1997

 

[boedicca]

Can anyone identify the small government utopia we should base ourselves on?

Bogus question, bub. Those who favor limited government generally don't believe it is possible to create a Utopia. People who promote Utopia are usually collectivists who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives. Limited government types just want to be left alone to pursue their own lives.

 

[eagle1462010]

PLEASE just ONE state or nation to EVER use it successfully? lol

Several people have already told you it was the U.S. before people like you trashed it.

No, the US NEVER was a libertarian nation, from day one we had protectionists policies, and passel ALL of Alex Hamilton's BIG GOV'T economic system, Saying it was libertarian isn't showing it was, just more right wing MYTHS

American School (economics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again you distort the history of this nation. Cherry picking away from their main points about limited Gov't. Which makes you nothing more than a tool.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Should warning from a tornado or hurricane be something done together?
Should building our roads or bridges be done together?
Should regulations on working conditions and labor laws be the same?
Should food be regulated and expected to be safe?

 

[Dad2three]

Dad can't do any post without cut and paste.

He spams threads with endless pastes.............Stop with the pastes and actually show up for an honest debate every once and a while Dad.

BTW the Federalist papers ditch your arguments all over the place. Ancient Greece would be proud of you though....................

Yes, true the STRONG federal Gov't propaganda won out over the small states rights anti Gov't propaganda. AND?


SS, Medicare, EPA, etc. lol

 

[eagle1462010]

Should warning from a tornado or hurricane be something done together?
Should building our roads or bridges be done together?
Should regulations on working conditions and labor laws be the same?
Should food be regulated and expected to be safe?

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=d204730e-4a24-4711-b1db-99bb6c29d4b6

READ.........................

 

[Dad2three]

Several people have already told you it was the U.S. before people like you trashed it.

No, the US NEVER was a libertarian nation, from day one we had protectionists policies, and passel ALL of Alex Hamilton's BIG GOV'T economic system, Saying it was libertarian isn't showing it was, just more right wing MYTHS

American School (economics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again you distort the history of this nation. Cherry picking away from their main points about limited Gov't. Which makes you nothing more than a tool.

Oh, YOUR OPINION on limited Gov't. Got it


SS, Medicare, EPA, welfare, food stamps, civil rights laws, Fed reserve, etc

 

[norwegen]

I believe in the enumerated powers of the Founding Fathers. aka a Leash on their power, and the power to take from one American and give it to another because it makes you feel good.

We give out more than we take in and that is a recipe for economic ruin. The founders looked into Ancient Greece and they screwed themselves. This is exactly why they created a Republic.

The Founding Fathers were the 1st Libertarians. They wrote the Constitution. It worked and somehow our country has continually tried to fix what wasn't broken. Which is leading us down the path of history. Like Greece. We cannot sustain the BS that has been passed. It's not possible. No matter how you cherry pick the data.

The creation of the American Republic was the inspiration not only of classical antiquity, but also of more recent examples in Europe, such as England after the Glorious Revolution and of Holland after gaining independence from Spain.

The Americans of the age were also very familiar with Enlightenment thinkng and the works of Hume, Locke, Montesquieu, etc., and the political and social theories of Puritanism and Covenant Theology. Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories. But even the Whigs knew that government in some measure was necessary because men were not angels.

You are correct; societies built on arbitrary rule are not sustainable. They weren't back then, and they aren't now.

" Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories."


lol


Why Thomas Jefferson Favored Profit Sharing
By David Cay Johnston

The founders, despite decades of rancorous disagreements about almost every other aspect of their grand experiment, agreed that America would survive and thrive only if there was widespread ownership of land and businesses.

George Washington, nine months before his inauguration as the first president, predicted that America "will be the most favorable country of any kind in the world for persons of industry and frugality, possessed of moderate capital, to inhabit." And, he continued, "it will not be less advantageous to the happiness of the lowest class of people, because of the equal distribution of property."

The second president, John Adams, feared "monopolies of land" would destroy the nation and that a business aristocracy born of inequality would manipulate voters, creating "a system of subordination to all... The capricious will of one or a very few" dominating the rest. Unless constrained, Adams wrote, "the rich and the proud" would wield economic and political power that "will destroy all the equality and liberty, with the consent and acclamations of the people themselves."

James Madison, the Constitution's main author, described inequality as an evil, saying government should prevent "an immoderate, and especially unmerited, accumulation of riches." He favored "the silent operation of laws which, without violating the rights of property, reduce extreme wealth towards a state of mediocrity, and raise extreme indigents towards a state of comfort."

Alexander Hamilton, who championed manufacturing and banking as the first Treasury secretary, also argued for widespread ownership of assets, warning in 1782 that, "whenever a discretionary power is lodged in any set of men over the property of their neighbors, they will abuse it."

Late in life, Adams, pessimistic about whether the republic would endure, wrote that the goal of the democratic government was not to help the wealthy and powerful but to achieve "the greatest happiness for the greatest number."



http://www.newsweek.com/2014/02/07/why-thomas-jefferson-favored-profit-sharing-245454.html




John Locke condemned anyone who took more than he needed as a "spoiler of the commons":

" ...if the fruits rotted, or the venison putrified, before he could spend it, he offended against the common law of nature, and was liable to be punished; he invaded his neighbour's share, for he had no right, farther than his use called for any of them, and they might serve to afford him conveniences of life.


The same measures governed the possession of land too: whatsoever he tilled and reaped, laid up and made use of, before it spoiled, that was his peculiar right; whatsoever he enclosed, and could feed, and make use of, the cattle and product was also his. But if either the grass of his enclosure rotted on the ground, or the fruit of his planting perished without gathering, and laying up, this part of the earth, notwithstanding his enclosure, was still to be looked on as waste, and might be the possession of any other"


The causes which destroyed the ancient republics were numerous; but in Rome, one principal cause was the vast inequality of fortunes. Noah Webster

The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. Adam Smith

lol

Copy and paste some more. You appear smarter that way.

 

[rightwinger]

Can anyone identify the small government utopia we should base ourselves on?

Bogus question, bub. Those who favor limited government generally don't believe it is possible to create a Utopia. People who promote Utopia are usually collectivists who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives. Limited government types just want to be left alone to pursue their own lives.

OK toots

I'll make it easier for our libertarians. Name a single government you admire because they are more libertarian than we are

 

[Dad2three]

Should warning from a tornado or hurricane be something done together?
Should building our roads or bridges be done together?
Should regulations on working conditions and labor laws be the same?
Should food be regulated and expected to be safe?

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=d204730e-4a24-4711-b1db-99bb6c29d4b6

READ.........................

ENRON, TYCO, Dubya's 2008 collapse, etc ALL by lousy regulators!

 

[Dad2three]

The creation of the American Republic was the inspiration not only of classical antiquity, but also of more recent examples in Europe, such as England after the Glorious Revolution and of Holland after gaining independence from Spain.

The Americans of the age were also very familiar with Enlightenment thinkng and the works of Hume, Locke, Montesquieu, etc., and the political and social theories of Puritanism and Covenant Theology. Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories. But even the Whigs knew that government in some measure was necessary because men were not angels.

You are correct; societies built on arbitrary rule are not sustainable. They weren't back then, and they aren't now.

" Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories."


lol


Why Thomas Jefferson Favored Profit Sharing
By David Cay Johnston

The founders, despite decades of rancorous disagreements about almost every other aspect of their grand experiment, agreed that America would survive and thrive only if there was widespread ownership of land and businesses.

George Washington, nine months before his inauguration as the first president, predicted that America "will be the most favorable country of any kind in the world for persons of industry and frugality, possessed of moderate capital, to inhabit." And, he continued, "it will not be less advantageous to the happiness of the lowest class of people, because of the equal distribution of property."

The second president, John Adams, feared "monopolies of land" would destroy the nation and that a business aristocracy born of inequality would manipulate voters, creating "a system of subordination to all... The capricious will of one or a very few" dominating the rest. Unless constrained, Adams wrote, "the rich and the proud" would wield economic and political power that "will destroy all the equality and liberty, with the consent and acclamations of the people themselves."

James Madison, the Constitution's main author, described inequality as an evil, saying government should prevent "an immoderate, and especially unmerited, accumulation of riches." He favored "the silent operation of laws which, without violating the rights of property, reduce extreme wealth towards a state of mediocrity, and raise extreme indigents towards a state of comfort."

Alexander Hamilton, who championed manufacturing and banking as the first Treasury secretary, also argued for widespread ownership of assets, warning in 1782 that, "whenever a discretionary power is lodged in any set of men over the property of their neighbors, they will abuse it."

Late in life, Adams, pessimistic about whether the republic would endure, wrote that the goal of the democratic government was not to help the wealthy and powerful but to achieve "the greatest happiness for the greatest number."



http://www.newsweek.com/2014/02/07/why-thomas-jefferson-favored-profit-sharing-245454.html




John Locke condemned anyone who took more than he needed as a "spoiler of the commons":

" ...if the fruits rotted, or the venison putrified, before he could spend it, he offended against the common law of nature, and was liable to be punished; he invaded his neighbour's share, for he had no right, farther than his use called for any of them, and they might serve to afford him conveniences of life.


The same measures governed the possession of land too: whatsoever he tilled and reaped, laid up and made use of, before it spoiled, that was his peculiar right; whatsoever he enclosed, and could feed, and make use of, the cattle and product was also his. But if either the grass of his enclosure rotted on the ground, or the fruit of his planting perished without gathering, and laying up, this part of the earth, notwithstanding his enclosure, was still to be looked on as waste, and might be the possession of any other"


The causes which destroyed the ancient republics were numerous; but in Rome, one principal cause was the vast inequality of fortunes. Noah Webster

The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. Adam Smith

lol

Copy and paste some more. You appear smarter that way.

Good you agree, the US Founders WANTED a hand in the economy AND favored wealth distribution!

 

[eagle1462010]

I don't want SMALL GOVERNMENT. I'd vote for someone that wanted a more efficient government, but never small. America needs science institutions, infrastructure, education and regulations. Maybe not the bloated regs in some areas, but we do need many of them.

We can't be electing people that think we can scrap everything and go back to the 18th century. It doesn't work and will turn us into a back water.

Straw man argument. You said it all when you said you didn't want a small Gov't. You support the nanny state we have today instead of individualism...................

I don't support wefare for all, but I don't support corporations shitting on the worker either. We have the greatest science institutions on the planet and some of the best infrastructure. Want to remain a first world country? Well, you may want to tone down the hatred on what made us into one. This isn't centered around the private sector...I love the private sector and I bash people on the left that want to harm it, but the rich that run it are out of control and take more than their fair share of the benefits of the corporations they head.

The entire libertarian argument just doesn't make any sense Throwing someone on the street and turning corporations into our overlords isn't individualism. In fact it is stupidty and will turn the less capable among us into peons just as fast as welfare will.

I support a hand up and not a hand out. Feed a man a fish...............

Why are we paying for cell phones.........................Why are we giving refunds to those not paying any taxes.......................Corp handouts are also part of the problem. They should rise are fall on their own merit and not the backs of the Tax payers.........

We have way too many hands in an ever increasing cookie jar..........

Again, who the hell said they are throwing people into the streets or getting rid of all regulations completely. I haven't seen them say that.........but I've seen too many saying they are saying it...............

Which is BS.

 

[ScienceRocks]

The creation of the American Republic was the inspiration not only of classical antiquity, but also of more recent examples in Europe, such as England after the Glorious Revolution and of Holland after gaining independence from Spain.

The Americans of the age were also very familiar with Enlightenment thinkng and the works of Hume, Locke, Montesquieu, etc., and the political and social theories of Puritanism and Covenant Theology. Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories. But even the Whigs knew that government in some measure was necessary because men were not angels.

You are correct; societies built on arbitrary rule are not sustainable. They weren't back then, and they aren't now.

" Their inspiration for small-government libertarianism could be found around every corner, and it so disappointed the Tories."


lol


Why Thomas Jefferson Favored Profit Sharing
By David Cay Johnston

The founders, despite decades of rancorous disagreements about almost every other aspect of their grand experiment, agreed that America would survive and thrive only if there was widespread ownership of land and businesses.

George Washington, nine months before his inauguration as the first president, predicted that America "will be the most favorable country of any kind in the world for persons of industry and frugality, possessed of moderate capital, to inhabit." And, he continued, "it will not be less advantageous to the happiness of the lowest class of people, because of the equal distribution of property."

The second president, John Adams, feared "monopolies of land" would destroy the nation and that a business aristocracy born of inequality would manipulate voters, creating "a system of subordination to all... The capricious will of one or a very few" dominating the rest. Unless constrained, Adams wrote, "the rich and the proud" would wield economic and political power that "will destroy all the equality and liberty, with the consent and acclamations of the people themselves."

James Madison, the Constitution's main author, described inequality as an evil, saying government should prevent "an immoderate, and especially unmerited, accumulation of riches." He favored "the silent operation of laws which, without violating the rights of property, reduce extreme wealth towards a state of mediocrity, and raise extreme indigents towards a state of comfort."

Alexander Hamilton, who championed manufacturing and banking as the first Treasury secretary, also argued for widespread ownership of assets, warning in 1782 that, "whenever a discretionary power is lodged in any set of men over the property of their neighbors, they will abuse it."

Late in life, Adams, pessimistic about whether the republic would endure, wrote that the goal of the democratic government was not to help the wealthy and powerful but to achieve "the greatest happiness for the greatest number."



http://www.newsweek.com/2014/02/07/why-thomas-jefferson-favored-profit-sharing-245454.html




John Locke condemned anyone who took more than he needed as a "spoiler of the commons":

" ...if the fruits rotted, or the venison putrified, before he could spend it, he offended against the common law of nature, and was liable to be punished; he invaded his neighbour's share, for he had no right, farther than his use called for any of them, and they might serve to afford him conveniences of life.


The same measures governed the possession of land too: whatsoever he tilled and reaped, laid up and made use of, before it spoiled, that was his peculiar right; whatsoever he enclosed, and could feed, and make use of, the cattle and product was also his. But if either the grass of his enclosure rotted on the ground, or the fruit of his planting perished without gathering, and laying up, this part of the earth, notwithstanding his enclosure, was still to be looked on as waste, and might be the possession of any other"


The causes which destroyed the ancient republics were numerous; but in Rome, one principal cause was the vast inequality of fortunes. Noah Webster

The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. Adam Smith

lol

Copy and paste some more. You appear smarter that way.

LOL, he is bringing forward real knowledge about our founders. What do you have?

 

[boedicca]

Can anyone identify the small government utopia we should base ourselves on?

Bogus question, bub. Those who favor limited government generally don't believe it is possible to create a Utopia. People who promote Utopia are usually collectivists who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives. Limited government types just want to be left alone to pursue their own lives.

OK toots

I'll make it easier for our libertarians. Name a single government you admire because they are more libertarian than we are

I don't admire any governments, bub. I admire The Constitution, and wish the Progs weren't so intent on undoing it.

 

[eagle1462010]

Should warning from a tornado or hurricane be something done together?
Should building our roads or bridges be done together?
Should regulations on working conditions and labor laws be the same?
Should food be regulated and expected to be safe?

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=d204730e-4a24-4711-b1db-99bb6c29d4b6

READ.........................

ENRON, TYCO, Dubya's 2008 collapse, etc ALL by lousy regulators!

Who's hand was in the cookie jar to help cause all of those collapses...........Lousy regulators.................

LOL The regulators warned the Gov't not to pass the Graham Leahy Act. Yet they were taken out of the loop. Too Big to Fail became SELF REGULATED.............Signed by CLINTON.

Shall we include the Savings and Loans Scandal and Country Wide while we are at it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[thereisnospoon]

What is a small government libertarian?

A figment of the imagination.

Says the believer in that government is my mommy and daddy.

 

[Contumacious]

Which state can censor speech?

Excuse me fucktard

you are the one who stated that the "articles of confederation" was a libertarian document but the Constitution (1787) was not.

Since when do Marxist care for free speech?

.

So fukwad, I pointed the AofC were MUCH more libertarian than that BIG FEDERAL GOV'T CONSTITUTION. Once more, which states cam censor? lol

The kill whatever brain cell you have left.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Amendment-Legislative-Recognition-Conditions-Introduction/dp/1584778202"]The Research amply shows that the US Constitution (1787) was a LIbertarian document[/ame]

.

 

[boedicca]

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=d204730e-4a24-4711-b1db-99bb6c29d4b6

READ.........................

ENRON, TYCO, Dubya's 2008 collapse, etc ALL by lousy regulators!

Who's hand was in the cookie jar to help cause all of those collapses...........Lousy regulators.................

LOL The regulators warned the Gov't not to pass the Graham Leahy Act. Yet they were taken out of the loop. Too Big to Fail became SELF REGULATED.............Signed by CLINTON.

Shall we include the Savings and Loans Scandal and Country Wide while we are at it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The Loons don't grok that the purpose of most regulation is Regulatory Capture by the Big Government Cronies...who use the regulation to squeeze out competition and to rent seek taxpayer funds.