What is it that ideas and people are 'left' or 'right' of?

[there4eyeM]

Ah, good! Another way to resolve things to essentials: "moonbats" and "wingnuts".
There's something about that I like!

 

[candycorn]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

 

[Wry Catcher]

"Corrupt" is strong as a general statement about either party, and accurate to some degree in both.
As the clché goes, power corrupts....
We have given far too much power to those who have shown that they do not know how best to use it.

My comment on corruption reaches back to Nixon and Watergate, Reagan and Iran-Contra; today It seems the Trump Administration will have as many members indicted as did these two Presidential Administrations.

Sexual Peccadilloes existed, and not only by Clinton, but JFK, IKE, FDR and many more; these presidents were not corrupt, per se, as to impact on We the Peopole, and they are not example of corruption, per se.

Trump's Administration has reached new lows. He is corrupt, and his corruption reaches across the Rubicon; it's impact on our nation and our progeny will be negatively impacted for decades if real Republicans allow it.

No one can honestly assert or offer proof that Trump and his minions are Republican's in fact and in behavior. It's time for the moderate right to stand up, and in the voting booth say, Enough!; For Libertarian's to say, Enough!; for Democrats Independents to say, Enough! Enough hate and fear mongering, enough lies (which begin in tweets and at Trump's rallies) and enough enriching the Trump Crime Family at the expense of We the People.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

As time has passed, many nouns and descriptions have become so over-used as to have at best very vague meanings.
'Right' and 'left' originally referred to positions with a monarch at the center. Today, what do 'right' and 'left' mean? In relation to what do they derive their orientation?

1. Open Boarders
2. History Revised (Rewritt
3. Tearing down of Statues
4. Mob Rules
5. Padding Voter Rolls
6. Illegal votes
7. Wetbacks voting in local elections
8. Illegals giving birth in the US
9. Drug make legal
10. Double Standard laws
11. Murder of the unborn
12. One bathroom for all
13. Sentencing based on race
14. Prosecution based on Party
15. Taking away of firearms
16. Ok for Pot, not for tobacco
17. Political Office based on gender
18. Tearing down of all Norms
19. Making perversion OK
20. Control of all printed media
21. Control of Internet content
22. Control of the Court System to make laws.
23. Stop the Conservative at all cost
24. Allow Terror to become the standard
25. Control the States from Washington DC
26. Control YOU

This is the RIGHT

1. Control the borders
2. Building the Wall
3. Arrest Deport the Illegals
4. Clear the street of Thugs and lawbreakers.
5. Keep the Internet free and open.
6. Keep in check agents working in the Government
7. Keeping the Voters registrations valid and legal
8. Changing the High Court from Lawmakers to Constitutional holders.
9. Putting America First.
10. Making Trade fair and level playing field.
11. Uphold the Laws of the Nation
12. Equal Justice (Needs work)
13. Working to change Sentencing laws for fairness.
14. Stop abusive operatives from sabotage of the House and Senates operations by the Deep State.
15. Investigate and charge Government Officials who violate the Law..(Like Clinton)
16. Do oversite control of the Government Agency's.
17. Return Education to the States.
18. Get rid of Obamma Healthcare Act.
19. Take Gun control off the table whenever it appears. ​

 

[Dan Stubbs]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

Oh I see its a joke. It has to be, just today in Texas four women were arrested for voter fraud, they were working a area with a lot of old folks who were getting ballots in the mail, they would pick them up and fill them out for them. They have not idea how many hundreds were filled out but they are now doing writing comparison to try to find those illegal votes.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

technology, diplomacy and policy these have been tried but have made NO difference in how many are running the border. So better think it over a little longer.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

technology, diplomacy and policy these have been tried but have made NO difference in how many are running the border. So better think it over a little longer.

No difference? Seems you listen to Trump, but never verify his statements. I do, he lies and so do members of his administration.\:

Border Crossings Have Been Declining for Years, Despite Claims of a ‘Crisis of Illegal Immigration’

"The Trump administration, defending its “zero tolerance” immigration policy that has resulted in separating families, has repeatedly pointed to a “crisis of illegal immigration” at the border.

"But government data shows that monthly crossings along the border with Mexico are dramatically lower than they were years ago"

Link and graph showing Trump Lied are included in the link above.

 

[a loss for words]

As time has passed, many nouns and descriptions have become so over-used as to have at best very vague meanings.
'Right' and 'left' originally referred to positions with a monarch at the center. Today, what do 'right' and 'left' mean? In relation to what do they derive their orientation?

It is different for very state.

 

[Wry Catcher]

As time has passed, many nouns and descriptions have become so over-used as to have at best very vague meanings.
'Right' and 'left' originally referred to positions with a monarch at the center. Today, what do 'right' and 'left' mean? In relation to what do they derive their orientation?

It is different for very state.

Would you like to explain how it is different?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

technology, diplomacy and policy these have been tried but have made NO difference in how many are running the border. So better think it over a little longer.

To repeat: "

"The Trump administration, defending its “zero tolerance” immigration policy that has resulted in separating families, has repeatedly pointedto a “crisis of illegal immigration” at the border.

"But government data shows that monthly crossings along the border with Mexico are dramatically lower than they were years ago."

See link and graph here:

Border Crossings Have Been Declining for Years, Despite Claims of a ‘Crisis of Illegal Immigration’

 

[candycorn]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

I hear the argument about the costs of the wall. And it’s correct. I’m certainly not endorsing something as seen in those failed prototypes. But there is a need, in my view, to act as a barrier against some foreign operative getting into the Mexican hinterland, installing a WMD in the bed of a pick-up truck and driving it across. Of course if they just detonate it in Tijuana or Juarez or Nuevo Laredo, the damage is done. Still, I suppose better there than Los Angeles, Chicago or Philadelphia. Devil’s arithmetic

 

[Wry Catcher]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

I hear the argument about the costs of the wall. And it’s correct. I’m certainly not endorsing something as seen in those failed prototypes. But there is a need, in my view, to act as a barrier against some foreign operative getting into the Mexican hinterland, installing a WMD in the bed of a pick-up truck and driving it across. Of course if they just detonate it in Tijuana or Juarez or Nuevo Laredo, the damage is done. Still, I suppose better there than Los Angeles, Chicago or Philadelphia. Devil’s arithmetic

Well, how does the Trump policy protect us from a WMD? Are there any moms with a five year old child hiding one under her skirt?

 

[there4eyeM]

Individual freedom is greatly influenced by how things are for the group.

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

I hear the argument about the costs of the wall. And it’s correct. I’m certainly not endorsing something as seen in those failed prototypes. But there is a need, in my view, to act as a barrier against some foreign operative getting into the Mexican hinterland, installing a WMD in the bed of a pick-up truck and driving it across. Of course if they just detonate it in Tijuana or Juarez or Nuevo Laredo, the damage is done. Still, I suppose better there than Los Angeles, Chicago or Philadelphia. Devil’s arithmetic

Walls have a poor history and a poorer image. They might be handy in some situations for a limited time, but they are not long term reliable.

 

[there4eyeM]

This has been illuminating and lots of constructive talk going on. More views are welcome.

 

[candycorn]

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

I hear the argument about the costs of the wall. And it’s correct. I’m certainly not endorsing something as seen in those failed prototypes. But there is a need, in my view, to act as a barrier against some foreign operative getting into the Mexican hinterland, installing a WMD in the bed of a pick-up truck and driving it across. Of course if they just detonate it in Tijuana or Juarez or Nuevo Laredo, the damage is done. Still, I suppose better there than Los Angeles, Chicago or Philadelphia. Devil’s arithmetic

Well, how does the Trump policy protect us from a WMD? Are there any moms with a five year old child hiding one under her skirt?

I’m not sure anything can. What a wall does is prevent large payloads from coming across. A robust fence is just as good and smarter than a solid barrier. What nobody talks about is the potential for flooding/lack thereof you get with a physical barrier with several meters of subsurface pilings.

 

[candycorn]

Really? I'm repeatedly told that America is the free-est nation in the world, if that is the case, is its group the most equitable?

edit...Oh, is it the case?

Such arguments are too subjective to discuss without immediately falling into conflict; how do we compare freedom without a firm definition of the word? Is France 'free-er' than the U.S.? A person's criteria supports one or the other, while true objectivity remains almost impossible.

Pro-choice makes me a lefty
Pro-Voter ID card makes me a righty
Pro sensible gun control makes me a lefty
Pro border wall (for natl security) makes me a righty

Not sure where it puts me politically

Confused? I'm not opposed to voter ID's, nor border security; I agree with the two others. But cannot support the cost of a Wall, when technology, diplomacy and policy can be used much less expensively and more effectively; and when voter ID laws are not used to suppress the vote of legitimate voters.

I hear the argument about the costs of the wall. And it’s correct. I’m certainly not endorsing something as seen in those failed prototypes. But there is a need, in my view, to act as a barrier against some foreign operative getting into the Mexican hinterland, installing a WMD in the bed of a pick-up truck and driving it across. Of course if they just detonate it in Tijuana or Juarez or Nuevo Laredo, the damage is done. Still, I suppose better there than Los Angeles, Chicago or Philadelphia. Devil’s arithmetic

Walls have a poor history and a poorer image. They might be handy in some situations for a limited time, but they are not long term reliable.

It will do zero to stop drugs or most illegal immigration.

 

[Freiheit]

Collectivism is left. Individualism is right.

 

[danielpalos]

Collectivism is left. Individualism is right.

Government is socialism and collectivism.

 

[there4eyeM]

Collectivism is left. Individualism is right.

Government is socialism and collectivism.

By definition, government is a collective activity.
Calling is "socialism" may be debatable.