What the science says

[Old Rocks]

an interesting view on the radiation budget. Does the Trenberth et al “Earth’s Energy Budget Diagram” Contain a Paradox?

the values are always different for any pathway but the overall directions are similar

That graph is truly a piece of shit. It tries to make an incredibly complex engine (climate) into a simple diagram. A diagram that doesn't even really come close to reality.

Closer to reality than you will ever get. You still calling for a major cooling? LOL Even Dr. Spencer is saying that 2016 will more than likely be the warmest year in satellite history. And the other people keeping score are saying that the last three years have been the warmest on record since we, the human race, began keeping records. Many, many other people. LOL Must put it in terms you fellows can understand.

 

[IanC]

an interesting view on the radiation budget. Does the Trenberth et al “Earth’s Energy Budget Diagram” Contain a Paradox?

the values are always different for any pathway but the overall directions are similar

That graph is truly a piece of shit. It tries to make an incredibly complex engine (climate) into a simple diagram. A diagram that doesn't even really come close to reality.

A diagram of a tree isn't a real tree. I get that. But there is more available information in the diagram than there is looking at a tree in your backyard.

You can argue that too many assumptions are made, too many complexities ignored, but you have to start somewhere.

 

[IanC]

Good. So you admit that the process is controlled entirely by radiative transfer to space. Well, that's a start.

Really? That's all you've got? UV interaction with the oceans has nothing to do with it? Long wave IR's inability to penetrate the skin of the water sails right over your tiny little head?

LOL So, if IR cannot penetrate the skin of water it cannot warm it? LOL So that rock that you just burned your hand on in July in the desert must have been heated by magic. LOL Because the IR did not penetrate the skin of the rock.

What a dolt. Visible and UV light warmed the rock.

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work. On the other hand it does change surface conditions so that solar insolation, which is capable of doing work, can warm the surface faster and to a higher degree.

Surface temperature is dependent on both energy input and energy output. Higher atmospheric temperature means lower surface loss, a la the S-B equation.

 

[westwall]

Good. So you admit that the process is controlled entirely by radiative transfer to space. Well, that's a start.

Really? That's all you've got? UV interaction with the oceans has nothing to do with it? Long wave IR's inability to penetrate the skin of the water sails right over your tiny little head?

LOL So, if IR cannot penetrate the skin of water it cannot warm it? LOL So that rock that you just burned your hand on in July in the desert must have been heated by magic. LOL Because the IR did not penetrate the skin of the rock.

Nope. Never said that. In the desert the rocks get warm and then at night they cool off very fast. When you are in the desert next to the ocean, on the other hand, the ocean moderates the temps. Thus we KNOW that UV light penetrates the oceans to a depth of up to 500 meters and THAT is what warms this planet.

 

[IanC]

Most of the power coming from the Sun is in the visible light range. That is what warms the oceans.

Much of the Sun's UV is intercepted by ozone high in the atmosphere. Some by N2 as well, I believe.

 

[westwall]

Most of the power coming from the Sun is in the visible light range. That is what warms the oceans.

Much of the Sun's UV is intercepted by ozone high in the atmosphere. Some by N2 as well, I believe.

Yes, it is, however the visible light is likewise not capable of penetrating deeply enough to warm the oceans. UV, on the other hand, over hundreds of millions of years HAS been able to warm the oceans up. That's why the thermocline exists in the first place.

 

[Crick]

So, energy that only penetrates a few thousandths of an inch isn't REALLY in the water? Is that it? Water doesn't start conducting heat till you get, what, ten feet deep?

 

[westwall]

So, energy that only penetrates a few thousandths of an inch isn't REALLY in the water? Is that it? Water doesn't start conducting heat till you get, what, ten feet deep?

Where does heat go junior? Ahhhh yes. It RISES! Tell me then, slick, how do you get any warming of the water when the long wave IR can't even penetrate as deep as a thousandth of an inch?

 

[Old Rocks]

Good. So you admit that the process is controlled entirely by radiative transfer to space. Well, that's a start.

Really? That's all you've got? UV interaction with the oceans has nothing to do with it? Long wave IR's inability to penetrate the skin of the water sails right over your tiny little head?

LOL So, if IR cannot penetrate the skin of water it cannot warm it? LOL So that rock that you just burned your hand on in July in the desert must have been heated by magic. LOL Because the IR did not penetrate the skin of the rock.

What a dolt. Visible and UV light warmed the rock.

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work. On the other hand it does change surface conditions so that solar insolation, which is capable of doing work, can warm the surface faster and to a higher degree.

Surface temperature is dependent on both energy input and energy output. Higher atmospheric temperature means lower surface loss, a la the S-B equation.

So, Ian, what you are saying is that a photon of IR carries no energy? Truly fucking amazing. Worth a Nobel Prize.

 

[Crick]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

 

[jc456]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

Actually IR from the atmosphere doesn't go to the surface.

 

[westwall]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

Actually IR from the atmosphere doesn't go to the surface.

No, it does, it just doesn't do much.

 

[IanC]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

Yes, I said that. Are you trying to take it out of context?

In these discussions it is implied that the surface is warmer than the atmosphere and the atmosphere has a temperature gradient from warm at the bottom that cools with altitude.

Are you nitpicking that I could have been more precise in my wording? Or do you actually believe that a cooler object can add heat to a warmer object?

 

[IanC]

Good. So you admit that the process is controlled entirely by radiative transfer to space. Well, that's a start.

Really? That's all you've got? UV interaction with the oceans has nothing to do with it? Long wave IR's inability to penetrate the skin of the water sails right over your tiny little head?

LOL So, if IR cannot penetrate the skin of water it cannot warm it? LOL So that rock that you just burned your hand on in July in the desert must have been heated by magic. LOL Because the IR did not penetrate the skin of the rock.

What a dolt. Visible and UV light warmed the rock.

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work. On the other hand it does change surface conditions so that solar insolation, which is capable of doing work, can warm the surface faster and to a higher degree.

Surface temperature is dependent on both energy input and energy output. Higher atmospheric temperature means lower surface loss, a la the S-B equation.

So, Ian, what you are saying is that a photon of IR carries no energy? Truly fucking amazing. Worth a Nobel Prize.

Where have I ever said photons of any type carry no energy? That is absurd.

Temperature is a quality of macroscopic objects, warming and cooling are descriptions of temperature change.

A single particle of matter has no temperature. Only large collections of particles have a temperature, defined as the average kinetic speed of its constituents.

Warmer objects produce more photons at a higher average energy level than do cooler objects. For any interval of time the warmer object loses more energy than it gets back from the cooler object. A single photon coming from cool to warm does not increase the average energy of the warmer object because there is always more energy leaving in the other direction.

 

[Crick]

So, energy that only penetrates a few thousandths of an inch isn't REALLY in the water? Is that it? Water doesn't start conducting heat till you get, what, ten feet deep?

Where does heat go junior? Ahhhh yes. It RISES! Tell me then, slick, how do you get any warming of the water when the long wave IR can't even penetrate as deep as a thousandth of an inch?

Heat does NOT rise. Water expanded to a lower density by heating might rise, but heat travels in all directions nitwit.

 

[Crick]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

Yes, I said that. Are you trying to take it out of context?

In these discussions it is implied that the surface is warmer than the atmosphere and the atmosphere has a temperature gradient from warm at the bottom that cools with altitude.

Are you nitpicking that I could have been more precise in my wording? Or do you actually believe that a cooler object can add heat to a warmer object?

Even given a surface target warmer than the atmosphere that emitted that IR photon, that photon contains energy that will be transferred to the surface it strikes. If NOT, you will have to give up the idea of NET RADIATIVE TRANSFER.

 

[westwall]

So, energy that only penetrates a few thousandths of an inch isn't REALLY in the water? Is that it? Water doesn't start conducting heat till you get, what, ten feet deep?

Where does heat go junior? Ahhhh yes. It RISES! Tell me then, slick, how do you get any warming of the water when the long wave IR can't even penetrate as deep as a thousandth of an inch?

Heat does NOT rise. Water expanded to a lower density by heating might rise, but heat travels in all directions nitwit.

Sure you want to go with that assertion dude?

 

[IanC]

IR returning from the atmosphere does not directly warm anything, it has no capacity to do work.

Have I quoted this correctly Ian. Did you actually say that?

Yes, I said that. Are you trying to take it out of context?

In these discussions it is implied that the surface is warmer than the atmosphere and the atmosphere has a temperature gradient from warm at the bottom that cools with altitude.

Are you nitpicking that I could have been more precise in my wording? Or do you actually believe that a cooler object can add heat to a warmer object?

Even given a surface target warmer than the atmosphere that emitted that IR photon, that photon contains energy that will be transferred to the surface it strikes. If NOT, you will have to give up the idea of NET RADIATIVE TRANSFER.

nope.

it's like a game where we both have a pile of money in front of us. I have a $100, you have $200. every 'turn' you have to give me 1% of your money and I have to give you 1% of mine. for the first turn you give me $2 and I give you 1$. you lost a net 1$. next turn you give me $1.98 and I give you $1.02. you lost again. pretty soon we are both just passing each other $1.50 to each other.

 

[Crick]

Nope.

If I, having less money than you, cannot accept your money (the analog of atmospheric IR not being able to do work), there is no transfer and my balance does not change. You're moving into SSSD-ville.

 

[IanC]

Nope.

If I, having less money than you, cannot accept your money (the analog of atmospheric IR not being able to do work), there is no transfer and my balance does not change. You're moving into SSSD-ville.

Wow. I knew you had a problem deciphering information from graphs but apparently you aren't so hot with word either.

The smaller amount is the atmosphere.

You guys are saying the $1.00 increases the bigger balance. I say the $1.00 is offset by the $2.00 going the other way AT THE SAME TIME. The bigger balance will always go down until it is equal with the other balance.

Also, radiation is a direct handing over of energy. Heat transfer mediated by matter is different. In that case it is like a banker middle man who tallies up the transaction and only transfers the net amount. $1.00 first turn, $0.98 (edit $0.96) next turn.....$0.00 once the balances are equal.

I really don't understand how you could confuse my position with SSDD's. SSDD thinks there is always a middleman banker even when there is no matter to mediate the exchange of energy.