What Would Happen if Israel Cedes Territory to Jordan?

[flacaltenn]

I think it would be a game-changer. What if, rather than trying to gain independence and sovereignty from Israel or in a peace treaty with Israel, the Palestinians were to negotiate with Jordan? What if Jordan became the main player in the interaction with the Palestinians on the world stage?

How would that change or affect the conflict?

Let's say Israel ceded all of Areas A and B to Jordan, as well as those parts of Area C necessary to create a continguous Palestinian area attached to Jordan.

Note that this would not preclude a Palestinian State, it just changes who the Palestinians have to negotiate with in order to obtain sovereignty. Wouldn't it make sense to negotiate with a partner rather than an enemy? Wouldn't everyone agree that common interests can create peace where conflict and opposing points of view could not?

And wouldn't it be better for a country like Jordan to handle security issues with the Palestinians?

What does everyone think will happen?

Interesting thought. Also...reminds me of the (rumor?) of Egypt giving part of the Sinai to Gaza to form a state?

But what would that really gain Israel - could Israel trust Jordan to negotiate what amount to their security needs?

Yes they could rely on Jordan to provide the services and security that is necessary for incubating a Pali state. That's why I've said for ages that a 2 state solution involves Israel working with Jordan and Egypt and other volunteer Arab states. It is the most direct path to eventual autonomy for Palestine.

Israel never got a chance to really negotiate with Jordan over the occupied West Bank, because by that time, the King was looking for ways to rid himself of the Palestinians. And as MOST of the posters have commented, the Palis burned that bridge when they ATTACKED their former host instead of negotiating for real autonomy with King Hussein...

It would be a monumentally BRAVE move for him to step forward now and take part in a reasonable solution..

That's a really interesting thought - I wasn't thinking along those lines but rather that Palestinians would become part of Jordan. That adds a whole new dimension to this and makes it seem like a better alternative than I thought. I wonder how possible it is?

It really is the only way to get a nation state for Palestine. These folks are in the same position they were during the British Mandate. It was noted then that the "palestinians" were not even CLOSE to being capable of self-rule. And some kind of "protectorate" would be required to transition them to statehood. Not a thing has changed. Except that the Palis blew the opportunity while Jordan was hosting them, and have blown away every attempt at electing representation leading to statehood.

The world just doesn't recognize unorganized indigenous populations for statehood.

Israel's error is letting this go on WAY too long. 50 year occupations are immoral and destructive. Israel's expectation always was that the Palis would get their act together and select responsible leadership. And barring that -- Israel doesn't want to be their MENTOR.. So --- some other nation(s) need to step up and volunteer. Preferably a neighbor or two. It's just obvious..

In parent language -- they need a strong talking to about insisting on getting Haifa back.. Or returning to Haifa as non-Israeli citizens. They cannot waste another 50 years. NOBODY has that much patience.

Agree with much of that.
I think though, that Israel also has a desire to keep some of the land and that has probably stalled the process as well.

50 years after the 67 war when Israel acquired that territory. Life goes on. See my post above.

And after the "Gaza experience" of dragging Israeli settlers kicking and screaming totally out of Gaza to do a clean handover to "palestinian government" ---- that mistake is not likely to get repeated..

IN FACT -- when Israel launched Gaza on a path to autonomy -- they were also preparing to launch a few northern sections of the West Bank into autonomy with FURTHER settler evictions.. But the Gaza deal died after only MONTHS when the PA was forced into elections and crashed and burned.

Gazans fleeing into Jordan after the '67 war are TODAY treated as garbage compared to the original Palestinian influx in '48. And if sitting on your ass being denied rights in a Jordanian camp isn't enough to make a "Zionist" nationalist out of you --- there's not a lot of hope for their cause. They just see no freaking USE for organization and government and forming a real nation..

 

[Shusha]

These folks are NOT motivated by NATIONALISM. They don't RESPECT governments. We shouldn't expect them to understand WHY they need one. And if you can't figure it out after sitting in a squalid refugee camp for 50 years being used as hostages and target practice -- there probably isn't really ANY hope for this "indigenous people"..

Oh man, I haven't read truer words on a debate forum on this issue in years.

 

[flacaltenn]

These folks are NOT motivated by NATIONALISM. They don't RESPECT governments. We shouldn't expect them to understand WHY they need one. And if you can't figure it out after sitting in a squalid refugee camp for 50 years being used as hostages and target practice -- there probably isn't really ANY hope for this "indigenous people"..

Oh man, I haven't read truer words on a debate forum on this issue in years.

Keeps me from being overly optimistic about potential outcomes here.

 

[Billo_Really]

I think it would be a game-changer. What if, rather than trying to gain independence and sovereignty from Israel or in a peace treaty with Israel, the Palestinians were to negotiate with Jordan? What if Jordan became the main player in the interaction with the Palestinians on the world stage?

Then Israel would probably make up some bullshit reason to attack Jordan. Just like it did with Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Egypt, etc.

How would that change or affect the conflict?

It increases the illusion Israel is not to be blamed for anything.

Let's say Israel ceded all of Areas A and B to Jordan, as well as those parts of Area C necessary to create a continguous Palestinian area attached to Jordan.

Why don't Israel vacate the areas it took during the '67 war?

Note that this would not preclude a Palestinian State, it just changes who the Palestinians have to negotiate with in order to obtain sovereignty. Wouldn't it make sense to negotiate with a partner rather than an enemy? Wouldn't everyone agree that common interests can create peace where conflict and opposing points of view could not?

Why don't you stop acting like an enemy and stop opposing everything (until you get your way), like a little 2 year old?

And wouldn't it be better for a country like Jordan to handle security issues with the Palestinians?

No country on the planet, has security issues as ridiculous as Israel.

What does everyone think will happen?

It would make sense. Why would the 4th most militaristic country on the planet, want peace?

 

[Billo_Really]

They don't RESPECT governments...

Oh, this is rich!

You refuse to recognize the Hamas government as "LEGIT", but claim "THEY'RE" the ones who don't RESPECT government.

How long does it take you to shave both those faces in the morning?

 

[Billo_Really]

The language being used in these last few posts is a frightening example the revisionist narrative infiltrating historic accuracy.

There is no state of palestine to be occupied. The pali's are not an indigenous people.
Self defense is not immoral
Jordan is the Arab state, Gaza will soon enough be another Arab state and no number of Arab states in the original mandated area is going to resolve the real problem

Racism and bigotry. The Arab Muslims simply will not let go of their hatred long enough to realize they are the only ones paying for all the hatred. Israel is a vibrant and robust country with a healthy economy. The only people suffering from the hatred and bigotry of the Arabs, is the Arabs.

Solution, Detain and declare palestinian combatants POWs and remove/repatriate them to a neutral third country or party.

Throw the bums out and let the rest live their lives under gradually reducing restrictions.

No one shits on Holocaust victims more than you do.

 

[flacaltenn]

They don't RESPECT governments...

Oh, this is rich!

You refuse to recognize the Hamas government as "LEGIT", but claim "THEY'RE" the ones who don't RESPECT government.

How long does it take you to shave both those faces in the morning?

In that part of the world -- they have little experience with democracy, open elections, or government benevolence. The governments are largely strong man dictatorships to keep the citizens from killing each over tribal issues. Hamas is no different. Willing to KILL the opposition for power.

Govt is never considered a benefit in that region unless you're related to the Ruling party or get govt welfare or a welfare job.

 

[Billo_Really]

There are protests because UN has cut payments and funds to camps. They just don't have the money anymore. Can't give what they don't have

How about the anti-war protest in Tel Aviv?





That big crowd ain't Palestinian's. If it was, you'd see a lot of bodies lying on the ground next to butter knives.

68 years, time to get off the dole

How do you get off the dole when the country next door won't let you go to work?

 

[Billo_Really]

In that part of the world -- they have little experience with democracy, open elections, or government benevolence.

And the one time they do, you refuse to recognize it.

 

[flacaltenn]

They don't RESPECT governments...

Oh, this is rich!

You refuse to recognize the Hamas government as "LEGIT", but claim "THEY'RE" the ones who don't RESPECT government.

How long does it take you to shave both those faces in the morning?

Giving Palestinians an "election choice" between Hamas and the Fatah is as exciting to them as if OUR choice was between another Clinton and another Bush..

 

[Billo_Really]

Giving Palestinians an "election choice" between Hamas and the Fatah is as exciting to them as if OUR choice was between another Clinton and another Bush..

And just what exactly do you have against a pothead and a lesbian becoming President?




BTW, the only reason Hamas is demonized so much, is because they wouldn't sell out like Fatah did.

 

[Shusha]

No country has borders like that. The reason the Palestinians THINK they have borders like that is because they can't stomach the idea of living next to Jews. If they could stomach the idea of living next to Jews we could draw real borders. You know, like the ones in every other country in the world where we don't count every house which is lived in by "others" as belonging to a different country.

 

[Shusha]

Billo_Really

If places-where-large-communities-of-"others"-live grants sovereignty then large sections of the US, Europe and Argentina would be part of Israel as well. Large sections of major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and San Fransisco would be Indian, or Korean, or Chinese or Japanese.

"Swiss-cheesing" a state only happens when the host State can't conceive of hosting any "others".

 

[aris2chat]

They don't RESPECT governments...

Oh, this is rich!

You refuse to recognize the Hamas government as "LEGIT", but claim "THEY'RE" the ones who don't RESPECT government.

How long does it take you to shave both those faces in the morning?

In that part of the world -- they have little experience with democracy, open elections, or government benevolence. The governments are largely strong man dictatorships to keep the citizens from killing each over tribal issues. Hamas is no different. Willing to KILL the opposition for power.

Govt is never considered a benefit in that region unless you're related to the Ruling party or get govt welfare or a welfare job.

It was amazing how they used international law, or misused it, to advance their cause(s), but failed even in local elections or political activism between the various political/militia parties. Inevitably disputes resulted in violence within the camps, even between leaders of the same party/group at times. Governing was "strongest leads", not smartest or most popular. Within the groups there is a form of hierarchy and organization that served as a form of government, but it was more tribal or feudal that what the west would consider government or authority of law. More gang than government. There are around 20 major parties or groups, with several sub groups and militias in each that "serve" the palestinians in and out of the camps, WB, G and across the MENA as well as various terrorist groups.


This is not a two to six party system with regular election. Most today eventually fell under the umbrella of the PLO. Leaders often reached power through assassination and threats.

Authority of the PLO and their groups vary widely from camp to camp.

We have seen most obvious the clash between Fatah and Hamas, but that is more complex when you include some 60 camps across the region as well as communities and neighborhoods around the world as well.

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo_Really

If places-where-large-communities-of-"others"-live grants sovereignty then large sections of the US, Europe and Argentina would be part of Israel as well. Large sections of major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and San Fransisco would be Indian, or Korean, or Chinese or Japanese.

"Swiss-cheesing" a state only happens when the host State can't conceive of hosting any "others".

There is no wall around Chinatown or Harlem. Or Little Cambodia. And they're certainly not treated as China's, Africa's or Cambodia's sovereign territory. But it is worth noting, that Indian Reservations are treated as sovereign native American territory.

If the US can do it for its indigenous population, why can't Israel?

 

[Billo_Really]

No country has borders like that. The reason the Palestinians THINK they have borders like that is because they can't stomach the idea of living next to Jews. If they could stomach the idea of living next to Jews we could draw real borders. You know, like the ones in every other country in the world where we don't count every house which is lived in by "others" as belonging to a different country.

They've lived next to Jews for thousands of years and had no problem with their neighbors. It wasn't until the Zionist migration did you have all the violence erupt in that area.

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, et al,

I'm confused.

Coyote, Boston1, et al,

Well, in the case of a POW, that is an option; to release prisoners to the ICRC (or even another similar NGO). But that is not a requirement and is sometimes not possible. When the British and Americans secretly rounded-up and handed over Polish, Czechs and White Russians to Stalin for probable execution; that would have been considered by the ICRC Refoulement or "forced repatriation." thousands were sent to their deaths.

(COMMENT)

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between a member of HAMAS, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or Fedayeen -- from that which is a true civilian. There are plenty of video's showing Arab Palestinians jumping into Ambulances in civilian clothes with small arms. The was an News Crew that filmed non-uniformed Arab Palestinians setting up a rocket firing position in civilian clothes.

Similarly, during and after WWII, the Immigration into Palestine was cut significantly by the British who either forced them back into NAZI controlled territory or put them in British internment camps. This created artificial refugee problems. When the Jewish finally freed, they had no reason to trust the British or the ICRC that allowed it to happen.

Most Respectfully,
R

So you would expel 4.4 million civilians from the Occupied Territories?

(COMMENT)

So where did you get that from?

I don't think I said that at all.

Most Respectfully,
R

No...you're right. It's what I'm getting from Boston. Apologies

No

Its what you are getting from yourself. What I said had nothing to do with civilians

No, I get if from what you have said in multiple threads which is to expel them all to Jordan.

Which is where they were supposed to go under the International laws of 1923. There was even provision in these laws for a forced move to arab Palestine it they did not want to live in Jewish Palestine peacefully and as full citizens. Even the UN stated that they could only stay/return if they gave an understanding that they would be prepared to act in a civilised manner and live peacefully with the Jews. Remind me again who it is that says they will never live in peace with the Jews, and why these laws have not been implemented in full ?

 

[Shusha]

They've lived next to Jews for thousands of years and had no problem with their neighbors.

So why can't they do that NOW?

 

[Phoenall]

Boston1, et al,

Well, I think that it is time to relook at the entire concept of "International Law." Just over a decade ago, I was marveling at how some people could even rationally conceive of certain topics. The one symposium that caught my attention at the time was:

A Weapon to Destroy Israel:
Arab States' Struggle Against Solving the Palestinian Refugee Problem
(Downloadable at this link.)​

"If the Arabs return to Israel, Israel will cease to exist." (Gamal Abdel Nasser)

"Deputy head of the Muslim Brotherhood's political arm in Egypt says that Israel would cease to exist by the end of the decade."

Once I understood this, I understood the need to protect Israel.

All within established international law of course.
Throw the bums out
And not cede another inch to the Muslim Arab colonists.

(COMMENT)

It is about moral and ethical mind sets.

The Arab rulers treated the Arab refugees … as a weapon with which to strike at Israel. This concept has expanded to roles more violent than what was experienced in the past.

Most Respectfully,
R

Does that mean supporting the expulsion of millions of people?

Does this mean you are for the expulsion of Jews from Jewish Palestine to make way for arab muslim extremists and terrorists. Read the mandate of Palestine to see who the land was given to in 1923, and what the qarab muslims got at the same time

I'm for the expulsion of NOBODY unless they choose to go elsewhere voluntarily.

What are you for?

The removal of terrorists, fifth columnists and other violent groups from any land they are not prepared to live in peacefully. there should be an international task force set up for just this problem that will go to where there are uprisings like those of the Palestinians and to quell the violence by arresting the front runners and then firing non lethal rounds at the activists. If they face lethal fire then they will respond in kind and have orders to shoot first ask questions later. If we had this in place now gaza would be a bombed out city inhabited by ghosts, along with Syria, Iraq and many other Islamic third world nations

 

[Phoenall]

Billo_Really

If places-where-large-communities-of-"others"-live grants sovereignty then large sections of the US, Europe and Argentina would be part of Israel as well. Large sections of major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and San Fransisco would be Indian, or Korean, or Chinese or Japanese.

"Swiss-cheesing" a state only happens when the host State can't conceive of hosting any "others".

There is no wall around Chinatown or Harlem. Or Little Cambodia. And they're certainly not treated as China's, Africa's or Cambodia's sovereign territory. But it is worth noting, that Indian Reservations are treated as sovereign native American territory.

If the US can do it for its indigenous population, why can't Israel?

Because it does, and Palestinians are not Isreals indigenous population anymore than they are Americas.

But you forget that there are walls around other nations as well that are much more aggressive than those around Palestine. Just as you forget that the Palestinians have been violent since 1916 when the Ottomans and LoN made no provisions for them in the surrender terms agreed. They sided with the losers and so had no rights to any land or to be given any land in the allocation made by the lands new sovereign rulers.