What would happen to blacks if we ended affirmative action?

[IanC]

LoL you mentioned Law Schools...

You fucking idiot the LSAT and GRE are different...Schools that require GRE have certain requirements. Schools that require LSAT have their requirements...Wow you racist are very stupid.

am I getting under your skin? swearing and ad homs arent much of an argument. at least not in civilized society.

 

[IanC]

IanC you racist POS this black man has explained in detail the admissions process. You are that stupid in making false statements. You do know, GMAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT have different scoring requirements. That means using legal cases or anything is stupid.

hahahahaha. I think perhaps you are the stupid one. all entrance exams measure knowledge and logical thinking. they are all tailored to produce a fairly normalized curve when taken by the target cohort and are best measured by standard deviations rather than raw scores.

the Michigan cases produced evidence for both undergraduate and graduate schools, Sander used undergraduate scores and marks as well as graduate scores, marks, graduation rates, and various types of passing the bar. blacks receive large preferences, typically over one standard deviation in undergrad, depending on the eliteness of the school. and closer to two standard deviations in grad school. black students were twice as likely to drop out of Law school, four times as likely to be unable to graduate, and six times as unlikely to pass the bar even with repeated attempts. because he had access to the records he found that blacks who went to school at institutions that matched their qualifications did much better than those who recieved large preferences. perhaps it is better to be with similar students rather than be at an obvious disadvantage intellectually.

if you really are unaware of these cases I would recommend googling Sander and the US Civil Rights Commission for a start. the Michigan cases were quite a while ago and the links I had to the actual grids for grades/scores/admission have long since dried up but are probably still out there is you are clever enough to find them.

 

[squeeze berry]

If affirmative action laws were repealed the BIGGEST loser group would be upper middle class women.

I say this because that subset of the "oppressed" community is the subset who most benefitted from Affiramative Action laws.

NO its wasn't Blacks, neither was it Black women, it was upper middle class WHITE WOMEN who have benefitted most from AA.

bullshit

white women have not needed AA

Nevertheless they were eligible for it, and many of them, mostly upper middle class White Woman, I note, had the resources to take full advantage of it.


No group of Americans did better by AA than already-affluent White women.

are they promoted over more qualified males?

 

[ScienceRocks]

The fairest form of society is a merit based society that's color blind. Anything else is BS.

 

[editec]

bullshit

white women have not needed AA

Nevertheless they were eligible for it, and many of them, mostly upper middle class White Woman, I note, had the resources to take full advantage of it.


No group of Americans did better by AA than already-affluent White women.

are they promoted over more qualified males?

No, the majority of benefit that went to affluent White Women came in the form of government contracts going to Woman owned businesses.

As these aaffluent (or connected to affluence) women (often in conjunction with silent male partners already in those businesses ..including incidently their husbands who had already been in those businesses) had the means and contacts to create companies that had a HUGE leg ip when it came to winning those contracts.

So what we ended up with is a lot of "women-owned" businesses that got very lucrative contracts simply because they were (at least on paper)women owned.

These women were NOT poor, they were already well connected to the people who have money, but because were WOMEN they were thought to be part of a poor oppressed class.

Let me give you an anecdotal example that I personally know of. A very well off female psycholgist decides to open a learning center and because she is a women, she is given preference for contracts servicing the state and federal government. (I also think she get special loans rates because of AA but I am not certain about that).

Now udnerstand this woman was already a resident in one of the most affluent towns in CT. Her and her husbands net worth was obviously in the six figures, hell her house was worth a couple mil!

But she and her woman owned business got breaks and advantages that (NO WHITE MAN however poor, however talented) could get.


I do believe in affirmative action though.

AA based ENTIRELY on economic circumstance and NOT on race, ethnic or gender.

That way the affirative action will actually go to ONLY people who need it and who can benefit from it such that they are lifted up out of POVERTY.

I'll leave it to your imagination why Congress didn't have the foresight to design AA in such an obvious way as that.

But here's a hint...the FEMALE familiy members of people in CONGRESS and the courtiers of Congress, regardless of how well off they are, we ALL eligible for AA.

 

[squeeze berry]

I'll agree with the AA based on need, not necessarily poverty.

Poor + qualified

 

[ShootSpeeders]

it doesn't matter if your black or hispanic if you do not meet the requirements you will not get accepted point blank period. .

hahahahahahahaha

 

[ShootSpeeders]

I took spherical trigonometry when I took astronomy my freshman year. 120 students on the first day, 20 students at the finals. I scored a B+ in a class where my math is not my strongest point. Majoring in the hard sciences like physics, and engineering doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't take a genius to follow formulas and calculations. Anyone can succeed in those fields if you apply yourself. If Physics wasn't so boring I'd already have my Bachlors of Science in that field.

HAHAHAHA. Spherical trig is mickey mouse math. You proved you are a math dunce. And your comment that physics is just following formulas and calculations is hilarious. In a real physics problem no one tells you what formula to use and then you just fill in the numbers.!!

It's obvious you are a verbal with no experience in any technical subject. Like all blacks.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[

I do believe in affirmative action though.

AA based ENTIRELY on economic circumstance and NOT on race, ethnic or gender.

That will amount to the same thing we have now since blacks and hispanics are much poorer than whites and women poorer than men.

 

[ScienceRocks]

I took spherical trigonometry when I took astronomy my freshman year. 120 students on the first day, 20 students at the finals. I scored a B+ in a class where my math is not my strongest point. Majoring in the hard sciences like physics, and engineering doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't take a genius to follow formulas and calculations. Anyone can succeed in those fields if you apply yourself. If Physics wasn't so boring I'd already have my Bachlors of Science in that field.

HAHAHAHA. Spherical trig is mickey mouse math. You proved you are a math dunce. And your comment that physics is just following formulas and calculations is hilarious. In a real physics problem no one tells you what formula to use and then you just fill in the numbers.!!

It's obvious you are a verbal with no experience in any technical subject. Like all blacks.

Still better than 90% of blacks within our educational system. I'll give credit when and where it's due.

 

[Meathead]

I believe in a meritocracy. Free enterprise in its purist form is just that. A business will hire and award people according to their abilities. Any business that doesn't is doomed to inefficiency and ultimately failure. Unfortunately, large business is now encumbered by government regulation on employment as are universities in the name of diversity.

One of the reasons the public sector is as inefficient as it is is that hiring is regulated through quotas, often racial, as in the US, or by patronage which is the scourge of many other countries.

What is wrong with employing and accepting people into universities solely on merit? Is the once noble idea of helping under-preforming demographic groups to go on in perpetuity?

 

[Aristotle]

as an alumni of UCLA you could hardly be unaware of the many studies of racial preferences at that university. both before and after prop 209.

I think it is rather hypocritical of you to claim that you had to work twice as hard when in fact blacks are admitted with lower scores and qualifications, especially for transfers and graduate studies.

Dude WTF are you talking about?

My background is in Cognitive-Behavioral Neuropsychology.

To be considered for grad school at UCLA the candidate has to have:

Minimum 3.2 GPA (The median average is actually 3.7 so having a 3.3 is actually bad just imagine having a 3.2)

Have a high GRE (Graduate Record Examinations) score in both Quantitative (that's math for you idiots) and verbal

Have a background in research experience at least 2 year minimum

UCLA stress GPA and GRE. If your GPA sucks you better be damn good in your GRE and better have good research experience.

It doesn't matter if your black or hispanic if you do not meet the requirements you will not get accepted point blank period. You see, if you were an actual graduate student with some knowledge of getting into graduate school you'd know this. Each school has its requirements for admission. UCLA will not admit a C average student doesn't matter what color you are. The reason? Because as a graduate student you receive about 97% of assistance from the school (in the form of loans) so the school see any incoming student as an investment. UCLA will not invest in a C average student with a low GRE score.

If two African-Americans applied to UCLA, they will most definitely admit the one with the best record. Alas, you fail again in your logic....Judging by your lack of knowledge you probably never attended college.

you are neatly sidestepping the issue. are you truely unaware of Sander and his investigation into Law Schools, or the Grutter and Gratz cases. the release of information showing just how extensive the gap between the white/asian and minority cohorts is really quite astounding because there is very little overlap between them. typically about half of minorities fall in the bottom 10% of qualifications and the whites/asians down there with them were likely only accepted to camoflauge the mix.

there has been a recent investigation into the 'holistic' admissions at the SoCal institutions that also shows large preferences given to minorities but I havent followed it closely. I suppose it is easier for blacks to stay uninformed on affirmative action so they can keep a straight face when they make their talking points such as you have done.

IanC you fail. I just explained to you about UCLA graduate admissions process and you again respond in nonsensical reports. How about addressing what I said about UCLA admissions.

 

[Aristotle]

If two African-Americans applied to UCLA, they will most definitely admit the one with the best record. Alas, you fail again in your logic....Judging by your lack of knowledge you probably never attended college.

the problem is not that they dont take the best qualified blacks.....the problem is that they take as many blacks as they need without worrying about qualifications. a quota by a different name. such as 'holistic'.

OMG do I need to show a chart at how many blacks are in my department? There are five blacks in my program (I am one of the five) the ethnic group that is mosyly admitted is Asian. UCLA has a high asian population. Dude you are fucking dumb now your just making conjectures.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

What is wrong with employing and accepting people into universities solely on merit? Is the once noble idea of helping under-preforming demographic groups to go on in perpetuity?

Affirmative action was never noble. It was a hate crime right from the start.

 

[Unkotare]

I took spherical trigonometry when I took astronomy my freshman year. 120 students on the first day, 20 students at the finals. I scored a B+ in a class where my math is not my strongest point. Majoring in the hard sciences like physics, and engineering doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't take a genius to follow formulas and calculations. Anyone can succeed in those fields if you apply yourself. If Physics wasn't so boring I'd already have my Bachlors of Science in that field.

HAHAHAHA. Spherical trig is mickey mouse math. You proved you are a math dunce. And your comment that physics is just following formulas and calculations is hilarious. In a real physics problem no one tells you what formula to use and then you just fill in the numbers.!!

It's obvious you are a verbal with no experience in any technical subject. Like all blacks.

So, what's your PhD in? You never did say. In fact, you have ducked like a little pussy every time you are asked about your own credentials, big mouth.

 

[Unkotare]

I took spherical trigonometry when I took astronomy my freshman year. 120 students on the first day, 20 students at the finals. I scored a B+ in a class where my math is not my strongest point. Majoring in the hard sciences like physics, and engineering doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't take a genius to follow formulas and calculations. Anyone can succeed in those fields if you apply yourself. If Physics wasn't so boring I'd already have my Bachlors of Science in that field.

HAHAHAHA. Spherical trig is mickey mouse math. You proved you are a math dunce. And your comment that physics is just following formulas and calculations is hilarious. In a real physics problem no one tells you what formula to use and then you just fill in the numbers.!!

It's obvious you are a verbal with no experience in any technical subject. Like all blacks.

Still better than 90% of blacks within our educational system. I'll give credit when and where it's due.

What makes you think that credit from YOU means anything, idiot?

 

[rdean]

They don't have the brains to get good jobs on merit so i suspect their welfare rate would jump from 35% to 95%!!! Skeptics might say that before AA came along most blacks were not on welfare, but that's because welfare 50 years ago was not as high-paying as it is now. Used to be welfare meant just enough to live on, now it gives you a comfortable lower middle-class existence.

So ending AA must be combined with a big reduction in welfare availability.

What would happen to blacks if we ended affirmative action?

They would come and get you. Just you. No one else.

 

[IanC]

Dude WTF are you talking about?

My background is in Cognitive-Behavioral Neuropsychology.

To be considered for grad school at UCLA the candidate has to have:

Minimum 3.2 GPA (The median average is actually 3.7 so having a 3.3 is actually bad just imagine having a 3.2)

Have a high GRE (Graduate Record Examinations) score in both Quantitative (that's math for you idiots) and verbal

Have a background in research experience at least 2 year minimum

UCLA stress GPA and GRE. If your GPA sucks you better be damn good in your GRE and better have good research experience.

It doesn't matter if your black or hispanic if you do not meet the requirements you will not get accepted point blank period. You see, if you were an actual graduate student with some knowledge of getting into graduate school you'd know this. Each school has its requirements for admission. UCLA will not admit a C average student doesn't matter what color you are. The reason? Because as a graduate student you receive about 97% of assistance from the school (in the form of loans) so the school see any incoming student as an investment. UCLA will not invest in a C average student with a low GRE score.

If two African-Americans applied to UCLA, they will most definitely admit the one with the best record. Alas, you fail again in your logic....Judging by your lack of knowledge you probably never attended college.

you are neatly sidestepping the issue. are you truely unaware of Sander and his investigation into Law Schools, or the Grutter and Gratz cases. the release of information showing just how extensive the gap between the white/asian and minority cohorts is really quite astounding because there is very little overlap between them. typically about half of minorities fall in the bottom 10% of qualifications and the whites/asians down there with them were likely only accepted to camoflauge the mix.

there has been a recent investigation into the 'holistic' admissions at the SoCal institutions that also shows large preferences given to minorities but I havent followed it closely. I suppose it is easier for blacks to stay uninformed on affirmative action so they can keep a straight face when they make their talking points such as you have done.

IanC you fail. I just explained to you about UCLA graduate admissions process and you again respond in nonsensical reports. How about addressing what I said about UCLA admissions.

OK

you say UCLA has a minimum requirement of 3.2 GPA. there may or may not be a minimum GRE verbal score but lets make it 150 (lower than the 50th percentile).

you make a grid with (GPA 4.0,GRE170) at the top corner and (GPA3.2,GRE150) in the bottom corner. you then find the the percentage of black or white students admitted with scores matching the boxes in the grid. the black admission rate is always higher than the white rate, especially in the lower boxes.

another method of showing the magnitude of preference in AA is to take the score of all the applicants, rank them, and give the median, and the 25 and 75 percentiles to reduce the effect of outliers. the average white score is close to the median, the average black score seldom reaches the 25 percentile mark.

the latest fad at the southern california facilities is to use 'holistic' protocols to mask the (illegal) preference given to blacks. after a protracked wrangle over access to admissions figures, the latest information appears to show that blacks do even worse on 'holistic' ratings than the normal admissions criteria, yet the number of admitted blacks are going up. considerably up since the first few years after prop209 when black admissions were decimated, and before the universities invented new ways to circumvent the law which prohibits racial preferences.

you say, and you may even believe, that there are no preferences at UCLA, or that they are of little size but you havent done your homework.

I presume that you did not read any of the papers submitted to the USCRC on the subject of Law School Admissions. one of the most interesting findings by Sander was that blacks who turned down admission to a more elite school via preferences, and went to a school where they were matched by qualification, had no discernable differences in outcome compared to whites with the same qualifications.

 

[IanC]

If two African-Americans applied to UCLA, they will most definitely admit the one with the best record. Alas, you fail again in your logic....Judging by your lack of knowledge you probably never attended college.

the problem is not that they dont take the best qualified blacks.....the problem is that they take as many blacks as they need without worrying about qualifications. a quota by a different name. such as 'holistic'.

OMG do I need to show a chart at how many blacks are in my department? There are five blacks in my program (I am one of the five) the ethnic group that is mosyly admitted is Asian. UCLA has a high asian population. Dude you are fucking dumb now your just making conjectures.

what do you want me to take away from this comment? do you think blacks are under represented by qualification in your dept? do I detect a slight whiff of resentment against asians (probably NE Asians) for being highly qualified and taking spots? I would be willing to bet that 'holistic' admissions dont do any favours for asian applicants.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

I presume that you did not read any of the papers submitted to the USCRC on the subject of Law School Admissions. one of the most interesting findings by Sander was that blacks who turned down admission to a more elite school via preferences, and went to a school where they were matched by qualification, had no discernable differences in outcome compared to whites with the same qualifications.

Which is just what logic predicts. Put someone (black or white) in a school where they aren't qualified and odds are they'll fail. In a school where they do qualify, they do just fine.