Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[Carl in Michigan]

This isnt what any Christians I know believe. If they teach that, they are biblically ignorant. You can lose your salvation

So you really say my statement is "fake news buttercup ? Was Meriweather right that you believe "once saved always saved"?

I'm not a part of Catholicism, Protestantism, or the JWs or Mormons, so maybe that false doctrine is more common than I thought. Regardless, it is still FALSE DOCTRINE.

When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Again this is the difference of seeing a Sacrament (Baptism in this case) as a once and done...as though it does its job immediately and is never seen again, much like a single annual flower.

In Catholicism, Baptism begins with the turning away from Original Sin, from disobedience to obedience. The etymology of 'repentance' is to turn away, have a change of heart. Baptism is efficacious, meaning it is capable of producing a result, that change of heart from worldly ways (the sin of Adam and Eve) to obedience to God (life in Christ). God's grace and justification has accomplished this, and now the baby is ready, as it grows, to walk in the Way of Salvation, the Way of Christ, with his/her family.

In Judaism, the first born son was dedicated/consecrated to the service of God. We see this when Hannah gave her three-year-old son to Samuel to be raised in the Temple instead of with his parents. Other children, after the first born, were not dedicated. In fact some only got the leavings of the first born son. So no, the original purpose of dedication is not similar to baptism. Nor does dedication bring forth the graces and justification that come from baptism alone.

babies can't turn away from sin they don't even know what is happening.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So you really say my statement is "fake news buttercup ? Was Meriweather right that you believe "once saved always saved"?

I'm not a part of Catholicism, Protestantism, or the JWs or Mormons, so maybe that false doctrine is more common than I thought. Regardless, it is still FALSE DOCTRINE.

When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.

you are baptized once not repeatedly. It means you made a choice to accept Jesus into your life after that you must pray and ask for forgiveness when you sin. Babies cant do that they are not aware of their surroundings and can make no informed choice.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

you are baptized once not repeatedly. It means you made a choice to accept Jesus into your life after that you must pray and ask for forgiveness when you sin. Babies cant do that they are not aware of their surroundings and can make no informed choice.

That's fine, and true, but I'm not debating infant baptism here. I'm talking about the false doctrine that once baptized and received the Holy Spirit you cannot lose out on salvation. The fact is, you can lose your salvation if you turn from God

 

[buttercup]

Again this is the difference of seeing a Sacrament (Baptism in this case) as a once and done...as though it does its job immediately and is never seen again, much like a single annual flower.

In Catholicism, Baptism begins with the turning away from Original Sin, from disobedience to obedience. The etymology of 'repentance' is to turn away, have a change of heart. Baptism is efficacious, meaning it is capable of producing a result, that change of heart from worldly ways (the sin of Adam and Eve) to obedience to God (life in Christ). God's grace and justification has accomplished this, and now the baby is ready, as it grows, to walk in the Way of Salvation, the Way of Christ, with his/her family.

I don't want to misstate your position, but once again it sounds like you believe God's grace is automatic, whether an individual wants it or not. That's actually very similar to what Calvinists believe, and I might ruffle some feathers here for saying this, but I believe Calvinism is flat out demonic.

If infant baptism is true and biblical, then there would be examples of it in the Bible.... at least one. But I have never seen even one example of infant baptism in the Bible.

There are, however, many examples of grown people being water baptized, who understand repentance and have given their heart to God. Willingly. On their own volition. Not because it was thrust upon them by someone else.

In Judaism, the first born son was dedicated/consecrated to the service of God. We see this when Hannah gave her three-year-old son to Samuel to be raised in the Temple instead of with his parents. Other children, after the first born, were not dedicated. In fact some only got the leavings of the first born son. So no, the original purpose of dedication is not similar to baptism.

I didn't say that the purpose of dedication is similar to water baptism. They are two entirely different purposes. But infant baptism specifically and infant dedication are similar in the sense that it makes the parents feel good about their choice to introduce their child to God and raise them in God's ways.

Nor does dedication bring forth the graces and justification that come from baptism alone.

^ This sounds very close to saying infant baptism saves a person, which you stated you don't believe, last night.

I think one of the problems here is we're going by different definitions of words, and if we're not on the same page as far as definitions go, there's bound to be confusion.

Maybe you can state the Catholic definition of Justification. But the Christian definition of Justification is when God pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ. It's basically the moment of salvation.

In the New Testament, Justification is associated with faith in Jesus and what Jesus did for us.

But even in the Old Testament, long before Jesus, Justification was linked to faith.

"Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness." - Genesis 15:6​

And a baby cannot choose to put their faith in Jesus, or repent.

IF you believe that God's Grace is automatic and the person being baptized has no say in the matter, then although I believe that's unbiblical, at least that clarifies your view on it, which up to this point has been very vague and religious sounding, for lack of a better word.

 

[Meriweather]

As I think you know, I grew up going to Catholic church, so I am not completely unfamiliar with Catholic teachings. The main thing that I believe Catholicism is wrong about is (as far as I've seen) there is no emphasis and clear teaching on what it truly means to be born again.

Did you attend Catholic School? Or Catholic Bible Study as an adult? It does appear we hear the words "Born Again" more often in non-Catholic Christianity, possibly because the emphasis was a bit different in Catholic teaching? We got a bit of Hebrew/Rabbi input from time-to-time as well.

In Judaism, even at the time of Jesus, an idea was often expressed twice. Its called parallelism and can be more easily picked up in Psalms. Jesus used it in his teachings as well. It can be identified in the Lord's prayer. Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Recall Jesus' teachings that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand--i.e. within the reach of everyone. God's kingdom is where God's will is done (obedience to God). Jesus is saying God's will is done in heaven, and it can also be done on earth (God's Kingdom Come) Twice we hear the call to obedience here on earth, in our life here on earth.

First point to remember is God's Kingdom is in our midst, within our reach right here on earth.

The next point reflects that, when Jesus speaks of eternal life. 'Eternal Life' in Biblical times was most often used as "Life with God." and often compared/contrasted with Fleeting Life (life on earth). Jesus was saying we are born on earth and therefore concerned with our earthly life, but eternal life (meaning our life with God right here on earth) was more important; that God sent his son to show us how to have eternal life (life with God) here on earth. We wash away (cleanse) what is not of God to be born again into the Spirit of God.

One Rabbi compared it to people spending an entire working in the field, focused on the cares of this world. There was no time for anything else. They were living the "Fleeting Life". Then there were those who spent time in prayer, in reading scripture, in caring for the widow and the orphan. Those were the people living "Life with God"--i.e. Eternal Life. Jesus was saying that unless we were born both into the Fleeting Life on Earth and into Life with God on Earth, one did not have eternal life (a life with God).

As a Catholic kid it mystified me why so many Protestants waited until they were adults to enter into a life with God (known as "Born Again"). Why didn't their eternal life come immediately after their fleeting life birth? Apparently they wanted to wait until they were older. I thought that very strange, but what kid understands adults?

 

[Meriweather]

I don't want to misstate your position, but once again it sounds like you believe God's grace is automatic, whether an individual wants it or not. That's actually very similar to what Calvinists believe, and I might ruffle some feathers here for saying this, but I believe Calvinism is flat out demonic.

My belief is in the power of God, the power in the Sacraments we were taught to follow. So, yes, Baptism bestows grace and justification. These are gifts. So, yes, these gifts are automatic with baptism, but if they are not put into use there will be no benefit derived from them.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Where does it say that baptism is for repentance?

Again, if you claim to go by Bible alone, you need to prove that the Bible explicitly says what you claim it says. Otherwise, you will be seen as being dishonest.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Have you ever encountered an infant who repents? Have you ever seen an infant act differently because they received the Holy Spirit?