Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[buttercup]

Same is true of those who were baptized as older children--and adults. Many of those not raised into a faith don't bother with one as adults either. Why miss the opportunity of presenting ones' children with the greatest gift we have and share as family, as the Body of Christ?

And your best answer is, "They might become atheists." ?

What if they don't?

No, it's not the same because outside the Catholic Church when Christians get water baptized as an older child or adult, the overwhelming majority UNDERSTAND that water baptism is symbolic, it it not what saves us. So if they later become atheists, they're not under the illusion that they are going to end up in Heaven just because they got water baptized.

But I've known Catholics who think that just because they were baptized as a baby and had their first communion, that they've received salvation. So in that case, there is often a false sense of security that can lead to eternal separation from God if that person never experienced true conversion.

 

[Unkotare]

This thread has devolved into straight-up bigotry. How spiritual.

 

[Meriweather]

But that is entirely different than thinking infant baptism has anything to do with salvation, because salvation involves a personal choice that is conscious, aware and serious...and a baby is incapable of making that choice.

Either baptism has a role in salvation or it doesn't. Either the Holy Spirit has an effect or doesn't. Baptism is the visible sign of the invisible reality. The invisible reality is grace. As has been pointed out before, anyone can walk away from salvation and/or grace at any point in his/her life. They can also learn to walk in what was given them at any point in their life. I don't know what childhood/toddler memories you possess, but I have several strong ones involving God. You can argue that I would have had these memories/choices anyway, and all I'll do is shrug. I credit God, his Holy Spirit, His Word.

Have you considered that the way you explain baptism it has little to do with the Holy Spirit and grace at work, but rather more to do with a deliberate work of man? If a parent doesn't want this grace and the Holy Spirit on their child until later, they have their reasons. I don't question those--in fact, I don't care what those reasons are. I am merely explaining why Catholic parents/families choose to have their children join them in the family of God. If parents don't think their babies are yet fit/meant for this--their call. My own experiences (and scripture, by the way) say differently.

 

[buttercup]

This thread has devolved into straight-up bigotry. How spiritual.

You're the only one who has been constantly making it personal instead of discussing the actual topic. The rest of us here are trying to have a discussion on what the scriptures teach about water baptism. It has become clear that sound doctrine and truth doesn't matter to you. So I guess you answered my question about your spiritual beliefs without actually answering it.

 

[Meriweather]

But I've known Catholics who think that just because they were baptized as a baby and had their first communion, that they've received salvation.

Then talk to Catholics who have studied Catholicism or actually listened to any priest. Or, you can point to the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that confirms that all salvation consists of is baptism and first communion.

 

[Unkotare]

You're the only one who has been constantly making it personal instead of discussing the actual topic. The rest of us here are trying to have a discussion on what the scriptures teach about water baptism. It has become clear that sound doctrine and truth doesn't matter to you. So I guess you answered my question about your spiritual beliefs without actually answering it.

Talk about making it personal.

 

[buttercup]

Either baptism has a role in salvation or it doesn't. Either the Holy Spirit has an effect or doesn't.

Water baptism doesn't save us. It's something that Christians SHOULD do, because it's a public declaration of one's new faith and new life in Christ.... but being dunked in water is not what saves us.

Baptism is the visible sign of the invisible reality. The invisible reality is grace

Yes, I agree that it is a visible sign of an invisible reality. But God's grace comes through faith, it not something that God forces on people who don't have faith, it is not automatic. Even if the parents want it for their child. The child (when old enough to understand) has to make that decision for himself/herself.

. As has been pointed out before, anyone can walk away from salvation and/or grace at any point in his/her life. They can also learn to walk in what was given them at any point in their life. I don't know what childhood/toddler memories you possess, but I have several strong ones involving God. You can argue that I would have had these memories/choices anyway, and all I'll do is shrug. I credit God, his Holy Spirit, His Word.

Yes, and as has been pointed out before, in the case of older children or adults getting water baptized and then later leaving the faith, they understand that water baptism is symbolic, so they don't have a false sense of security.

Have you considered that the way you explain baptism it has little to do with the Holy Spirit and grace at work, but rather more to do with a deliberate work of man? If a parent doesn't want this grace and the Holy Spirit on their child until later, they have their reasons. I don't question those--in fact, I don't care what those reasons are. I am merely explaining why Catholic parents/families choose to have their children join them in the family of God. If parents don't think their babies are yet fit/meant for this--their call. My own experiences (and scripture, by the way) say differently.

Don't get me wrong. Of course the Holy Spirit is involved when a person comes to Christ. The bible is clear that once we believe and receive salvation, we get sealed with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

But if there is no true conversion? Then that person is still in their natural state. And although I believe God will still pursue that person and "knock on their door" so to speak... God does not force Himself on people, and the idea that merely sprinkling someone with water saves them and seals them with the Spirit is not biblical.

We are not saved by any works or ceremonies, but by God's grace through faith and a true profound inner change that takes place. That involves understanding the Gospel, and a baby simply is incapable of understanding or making that decision at that age.

 

[Meriweather]

Water baptism doesn't save us. It's something that Christians SHOULD do, because it's a public declaration of one's new faith and new life in Christ.... but being dunked in water is not what saves us.

It is much, much more than a declaration by the baptized. It is God's work unfolding, His grace being bestowed.

they understand that water baptism is symbolic

Catholic believe baptism is a visible sign of the invisible reality. We do not believe baptism is symbolic. We believe that the baptized is fully welcomed, is given grace to grow in the life of Christ, and is a full member of the Body of Christ.

I can see where it might be easy to walk away from a symbol. It's not as easy to walk away from reality.

Don't get me wrong. Of course the Holy Spirit is involved when a person comes to Christ. The bible is clear that once we believe and receive salvation, we get sealed with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

But if there is no true conversion? Then that person is still in their natural state. And although I believe God will still pursue that person and "knock on their door" so to speak... God does not force Himself on people, and the idea that merely sprinkling someone with water saves them and seals them with the Spirit is not biblical.

We are not saved by any works or ceremonies, but by God's grace through faith and a true profound inner change that takes place. That involves understanding the Gospel, and a baby simply is incapable of understanding or making that decision at that age.

The baptized become participants in God's work of salvation, walk away, or sit on the fence. It appears God pursues those who walk away, but doesn't care much for the lukewarm who choose the fence.