Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[FA_Q2]

When it has a central nervous system and accompanying brain. Conception and heart-beats are too early. 24 weeks sounds good, and the women must be allowed to choose before then. Nobody using theological motivations should be allowed to change laws concerning this, because this is not based on science. Science and the medical establishment must be the deciders of this.

That's exactly what proponents of negative eugenics say, and it's wrong. Pure science and medicine do not see right or wrong, and should never be the "only" ones to decide ethical decisions upon which people's lives hang.

But then who should be the ones to decide?

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

 

[Noomi]

That's exactly what proponents of negative eugenics say, and it's wrong. Pure science and medicine do not see right or wrong, and should never be the "only" ones to decide ethical decisions upon which people's lives hang.

But then who should be the ones to decide?

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

This debate is actually going well. I prefer to debate without resorting to insults just because two people disagree.

A question - when in the second trimester? At the beginning, the middle, or the end?

 

[Ravi]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

Back in the good old days, unwed pregnant women were sent off to baby farms, forced to bear a child and then forced to give it up for adoption.

 

[FA_Q2]

But then who should be the ones to decide?

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

This debate is actually going well. I prefer to debate without resorting to insults just because two people disagree.

A question - when in the second trimester? At the beginning, the middle, or the end?

Somewhere between the beginning and middle. Not married to a peticular week number. It has to be in the second trimester to allow for the rights of the mother and can't be in e third to allow for the rights of the unborn. All in all, I think that you should have the ability and responsibility to have taken care of e situation pretty early in the second trimester. There really is no excuse to wait much longer if you are going to abort. Why do you ask?

 

[thanatos144]

Abortion is murder. It is that simple. Just cause it is murder made legal by morally debased hedonism driven people does not change this.

 

[koshergrl]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

Back in the good old days, unwed pregnant women were sent off to baby farms, forced to bear a child and then forced to give it up for adoption.

And then picked up their lives where they left off.

Now they are forced to abortion clinics, where they are forced to kill their babies.

In the first instance, nobody dies. In the second instance, one person always dies...and sometimes 2.

However, your comment doesn't speak to the discussion.

 

[copsnrobbers]

What ever happened to personal responsibility.. and mind your own business?

 

[thanatos144]

What ever happened to personal responsibility.. and mind your own business?

Does that mean people can kill adults as long as they mind thier own business?

 

[koshergrl]

Personal responsibility and "mind your own business" does not extend to the point that we ignore the situation when innocent people are being hurt.

You don't stand by and "mind your own business" when a child is being beaten in the street (at least I hope not). You don't stand by and "mind your own business" when you hear screams next door. Personal responsibility does not give a person the right to take the life of another, no matter how inconvenient they find the existence of that other person.

 

[Katzndogz]

There is something wrong, at the outset, with finding a violation of human rights when we expect a 14 year old to learn to control themselves. If you really want 14 year olds to start controlling themselves there has to be consequences. Such as a forced marriage. Kicked out of school, create a work permit category and tell these 14 year old fathers to start supporting their children. People aren't animals who can't control themselves when they are in the mood to rut. Make the consequences severe enough and they will stop finding a right to have sex at the local Wal Mart.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

Back in the good old days, unwed pregnant women were sent off to baby farms, forced to bear a child and then forced to give it up for adoption.

In those days, they had no real choices unless they had the money to go to another country for an abortion. Or they could get a very dangerous and illegal abortion here.

Abortion is a legal choice and no one's business besides the woman's. Period.

(Anyone who is interested, look up the history of Florence Crittenton Services. A job I had while in college was as a night watchmen at one. )

 

[Katzndogz]

I support the original Roe decision as written but it should not be a federal law. It should be left up to the states. Since abortion and birth control are "choices" that women are free to make, contraceptives should be treated as any other elective medical procedure and paid for by the person making the decision to have the elective service.

 

[High_Gravity]

There is something wrong, at the outset, with finding a violation of human rights when we expect a 14 year old to learn to control themselves. If you really want 14 year olds to start controlling themselves there has to be consequences. Such as a forced marriage. Kicked out of school, create a work permit category and tell these 14 year old fathers to start supporting their children. People aren't animals who can't control themselves when they are in the mood to rut. Make the consequences severe enough and they will stop finding a right to have sex at the local Wal Mart.

Sex at Walmart? say what now?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

Back in the good old days, unwed pregnant women were sent off to baby farms, forced to bear a child and then forced to give it up for adoption.

In those days, they had no real choices unless they had the money to go to another country for an abortion. Or they could get a very dangerous and illegal abortion here.

Abortion is a legal choice and no one's business besides the woman's. Period.

(Anyone who is interested, look up the history of Florence Crittenton Services. A job I had while in college was as a night watchmen at one. )

Also, back in the Old Days, there were orphanages for unwanted babies , as well as financial aid for those who chose to keep their baby. Now, the R wants to do away with the kind of assistance that would make it possible for women to keep their baby AND get an education, get decent work so they can support themselves. The same Rs who want to control women's reproduction choices refuse to even consider that it takes two to get pregnant and that the father has EQUAL responsibility for the child.

Things are different now but even so, no one has the right to control women's reproduction. No one except the owner of that body and that life and that is and will always be the woman. No one else.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There is something wrong, at the outset, with finding a violation of human rights when we expect a 14 year old to learn to control themselves. If you really want 14 year olds to start controlling themselves there has to be consequences. Such as a forced marriage. Kicked out of school, create a work permit category and tell these 14 year old fathers to start supporting their children. People aren't animals who can't control themselves when they are in the mood to rut. Make the consequences severe enough and they will stop finding a right to have sex at the local Wal Mart.

Sex at Walmart? say what now?

Apparently, there is an assumption about who it is that has abortions. FACT is, 2/3rds are medically necessary and the very last thing the woman wants.

Even if its not a wanted pregnancy, there is no such thing as a woman or young girl who starts out wanting an abortion.

You also occasionally hear of women who use abortion as a form of birth control. Nonsense, of course.

 

[Intense]

That's exactly what proponents of negative eugenics say, and it's wrong. Pure science and medicine do not see right or wrong, and should never be the "only" ones to decide ethical decisions upon which people's lives hang.

But then who should be the ones to decide?

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

Reason has a place, Dogma, less so. You have no Right to be inside Someone Else's head, when They have a decision to make. It is not your or my place to decide what factors another Individual is allowed to base his or her decision on, Theological or not, a Vote is a Vote.

 

[koshergrl]

There is something wrong, at the outset, with finding a violation of human rights when we expect a 14 year old to learn to control themselves. If you really want 14 year olds to start controlling themselves there has to be consequences. Such as a forced marriage. Kicked out of school, create a work permit category and tell these 14 year old fathers to start supporting their children. People aren't animals who can't control themselves when they are in the mood to rut. Make the consequences severe enough and they will stop finding a right to have sex at the local Wal Mart.

Sex at Walmart? say what now?

Apparently, there is an assumption about who it is that has abortions. FACT is, 2/3rds are medically necessary and the very last thing the woman wants.

Even if its not a wanted pregnancy, there is no such thing as a woman or young girl who starts out wanting an abortion.

You also occasionally hear of women who use abortion as a form of birth control. Nonsense, of course.

Support that, please.

 

[koshergrl]

Edited: Keep it Civil

From Guttmacher:

"“Women’s primary reasons for making this difficult decision are based on a lack of resources in light of their current responsibilities. Typically, more than one reason drives the decision, and these reasons are frequently interrelated.”

Why Do Women Have Abortions?

 

[koshergrl]

In fact, medical reasons aren't even cited:

"

RESULTS:​

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​

​

​

The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman’s education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. ... Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents."

Why Do Women Have Abortions?​

 

[Avatar4321]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

I think divorce, single parenthood and promsecuity are some of the biggest contributing factors for why our finances are a mess.

When we keep the commandments, we will prosper in the land. When we don't, we won't.