Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[Noomi]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

When a bunch of strangers get together and start trying to tell someone what they can do.

I agree, and I am yet to hear from any lifer why they feel justified in controlling the reproductive system of a woman.

 

[AVG-JOE]

As far as the technology goes, abortion as a procedure is not going anywhere.

The trick to drawing a line around it is to keep it safe and out of the black market by keeping it legal and available, while preventing abortion from becoming a profitable stand-alone industry.

As with most things in our non-transparent politics... follow the money.

 

[Steelplate]

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

Reason has a place, Dogma, less so. You have no Right to be inside Someone Else's head, when They have a decision to make. It is not your or my place to decide what factors another Individual is allowed to base his or her decision on, Theological or not, a Vote is a Vote.

That is true but it totally ignores the fact that there is a third party involved in this, the child. I really do not care what you want to call it or how much you want to ignore its existence, abortion should not be legal at any time for any reason without regard to the child. That life has rights. Does that mean abortion should be illegal period? No. It also meant that third trimester abortions are abhorrent as well. There is a line and it must be drawn. The question we are faced with is where.

That's what this thread is about, finding that line. The absolutists on either side of this debate don't seem to want to find that line. Which is fine, they are certainly entitled to their opinions. But it's not very practical.

 

[thanatos144]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

When a bunch of strangers get together and start trying to tell someone what they can do.

So no laws ever?

 

[koshergrl]

Your study doesn't prove what you suggest it does. Your study proves that men are more often involved in abortion decisions when there is IPV present. It doesn't show that this occurs often (most relationships don't experience IPV).

Yes, it shows exactly what I suggest it does, as I did not state that most relationships involve interpersonal violence.

You stated that women are forced into abortion quite frequently. The study doesn't provide this information.

You must have missed my reference to China.

 

[Uncensored2008]

There are no babies killed during abortion.

Did you think pregnant women carry chickens, then?

 

[koshergrl]

"64% of women reported feeling pressured to abort.1

• Most felt rushed or uncertain, yet 67% weren’t counseled.1

• 79% weren’t told of available resources.1 ​

• 84% weren’t sufficiently informed before abortion.1

• Pressure to abort can escalate to violence.2 ​

• Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.3

• Clinics fail to screen for coercion.4 ​

• Women nearly 4 times more likely to die after abortion.5

• Suicide rates 6 times higher after abortion.6
• 65% of women suffer trauma symptoms after abortion.1​

1. VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16 (2004).​

2. See the Abortion is the UnChoice for futher information and cases.

3. I.L. Horton and D. Cheng, “Enhanced Surveillance for Pregnancy-Associated Mortality-Maryland, 1993-1998,” ​

​

JAMA 285(11): 1455-1459(2001); see also J. Mcfarlane et. al., "Abuse During Pregnancy and Femicide: Urgent Implications for Women's Health,"Obstetrics & Gynecology 100: 27-36 (2002).​

​

​

​

​

4. See stopforcedabortions.com.

5. M Gissler et. al., “Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage,” ​

Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica 76:651-657, (1997). Another study found that, compared to women who gave birth, women who had abortions had a 62% higher risk of death from all causes for at least eight years after their pregnancies. DC Reardon et. al., “Deaths Associated With Pregnancy Outcome: A Record Linkage Study of Low Income Women,” ​

Southern Medical Journal 95(8):834-41, (2002).​

6. M Gissler et. al., “Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage,” ​

Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997); and M. Gissler, “Injury deaths, suicides and homicides associated with pregnancy, Finland 1987-2000,” European J. Public Health 15(5):459-63 (2005).​

http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf​

 

[Uncensored2008]

As far as the technology goes, abortion as a procedure is not going anywhere.

The trick to drawing a line around it is to keep it safe and out of the black market by keeping it legal and available, while preventing abortion from becoming a profitable stand-alone industry.

As with most things in our non-transparent politics... follow the money.

Abortion is already a multi-billion dollar industry. The passion of the pro-abortion crowd isn't based on an innate hatred of babies, but on a desire to make a profit.

 

[koshergrl]

Not only do the majority of women who get abortions feel "pressured" to abort (see above) but they are also much, much more likely to be abused or murdered.

"Women with unwanted or mistimed pregnancies are at an increased risk for violence by their partners compared with women with intended pregnancies."

Since the huge majority of women who get abortions are aborting based on "mistimed" or unintended pregnancy, it follows that these are women who are much more likely to be suffering abuse.

Additionally, women who are receiving government benefits (foodstamps) and at the lower end of the education/income spectrum are also much more likely to be abused. Since the large majority of women who seek abortions state they do so because they don't want to interrupt their education plans or because they don't feel they can afford a child, then it follows that these are women at the lower end of the education/income spectrum, and thus at higher risk of abuse.

The relationship between pregnancy intendedne... [Obstet Gynecol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Borillar]

Not only do the majority of women who get abortions feel "pressured" to abort (see above) but they are also much, much more likely to be abused or murdered.

"Women with unwanted or mistimed pregnancies are at an increased risk for violence by their partners compared with women with intended pregnancies."

Since the huge majority of women who get abortions are aborting based on "mistimed" or unintended pregnancy, it follows that these are women who are much more likely to be suffering abuse.

Additionally, women who are receiving government benefits (foodstamps) and at the lower end of the education/income spectrum are also much more likely to be abused. Since the large majority of women who seek abortions state they do so because they don't want to interrupt their education plans or because they don't feel they can afford a child, then it follows that these are women at the lower end of the education/income spectrum, and thus at higher risk of abuse.

The relationship between pregnancy intendedne... [Obstet Gynecol. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

Do you want these women, who are "at the lower end of the education/income spectrum" and in possibly abusive relationships to be forced to carry to term children that are unwanted, unneeded, and unaffordable? Once born, the children would likely be subjected to the same abuse and poor conditions. And at the same time, conservatives want to remove the social safety net, so these poor mothers wouldn't even get the paltry benefits they receive now? Mothers seeking to better themselves via education, would be forced to stop to take care of a child, dooming herself to remain poor and uneducated. While I would hope that the expectant mother would consider adoption before abortion, pregnancy and delivery are not mere trivial inconveniences. They are life changing experiences, not to mention the expense.

 

[koshergrl]

Please support your assertion that women who obtain abortions would otherwise be "doomed" to remain poor and uneducated, or that their children would be poor and abused if they had them. Support your assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. Support your statement that women who are pregnant must stop to take care of a child.

And allow me to pose a question to you...do you think it's better that women who are abused continue to be abused and their children killed by an organization that doesn't properly screen for abuse, and when it finds it, doesn't report?

 

[catzmeow]

You must have missed my reference to China.

China =/= U.S. Chinese issues have little bearing on U.S. law.

 

[catzmeow]

Not only do the majority of women who get abortions feel "pressured" to abort (see above) but they are also much, much more likely to be abused or murdered.

The majority of women who get abortions feel pressured? Please, provide substantive evidence (and the study you posted earlier does not prove this claim.

 

[catzmeow]

"64% of women reported feeling pressured to abort.1

• Most felt rushed or uncertain, yet 67% weren’t counseled.1

• 79% weren’t told of available resources.1 ​

• 84% weren’t sufficiently informed before abortion.1

• Pressure to abort can escalate to violence.2 ​

• Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.3

• Clinics fail to screen for coercion.4 ​

• Women nearly 4 times more likely to die after abortion.5

• Suicide rates 6 times higher after abortion.6
• 65% of women suffer trauma symptoms after abortion.1​

1. VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16 (2004).​

2. See the Abortion is the UnChoice for futher information and cases.

3. I.L. Horton and D. Cheng, “Enhanced Surveillance for Pregnancy-Associated Mortality-Maryland, 1993-1998,” ​

​

JAMA 285(11): 1455-1459(2001); see also J. Mcfarlane et. al., "Abuse During Pregnancy and Femicide: Urgent Implications for Women's Health,"Obstetrics & Gynecology 100: 27-36 (2002).​

​

​

​

​

4. See stopforcedabortions.com.

5. M Gissler et. al., “Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage,” ​

Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica 76:651-657, (1997). Another study found that, compared to women who gave birth, women who had abortions had a 62% higher risk of death from all causes for at least eight years after their pregnancies. DC Reardon et. al., “Deaths Associated With Pregnancy Outcome: A Record Linkage Study of Low Income Women,” ​

Southern Medical Journal 95(8):834-41, (2002).​

6. M Gissler et. al., “Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage,” ​

Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica 76:651-657 (1997); and M. Gissler, “Injury deaths, suicides and homicides associated with pregnancy, Finland 1987-2000,” European J. Public Health 15(5):459-63 (2005).​

http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf​

Your cut-and-paste article misrepresents the footnoted studies.

Here's a link to the full study listed as footnote 1. http://www.medscimonit.com/fulltxt_free.php?ICID=11784

64% of American women felt pressured by others get an abortion, but the study does not specify that this pressure was coming from an abusive boyfriend or spouse. It could have been from friends, parents, or others. Further, it is a small scale research project with non-statistically representative data from 2 U.S. abortion clinics and 1 russian hospitals. Generalizing it, as you have done, is intellectually unethical.

 

[koshergrl]

No, it's really not. I posted that to support my statement that women were frequently coerced into abortion, as a response to your comment that I hadn't supported that.

And the study is fine. The Medical Science Monitor International Medical Journal for Experimental and Clincial Research had no problem with it, which is why they published it...and based on their acceptance of it, I accept it as well. This publication is peer reviewed.

"Medical Science Monitor is an international, peer-reviewed scientific journal that publish original articles in experimental and clinical medicine and related disciplines such as molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics, biophysics, bio- and medical technology. "

"...The registered manuscripts are sent to independent experts for scientific evaluation. We encourage authors to suggest the names of possible reviewers, but we reserve the right of final selection. The evaluation process usually takes 1-3 months. Submitted papers are accepted for publication after a positive opinion of the independent reviewers. Authors should return a corrected paper within 3 months."

It passed muster.

http://www.medscimonit.com/page.php?IDpage=21&p=4

 

[Borillar]

Please support your assertion that women who obtain abortions would otherwise be "doomed" to remain poor and uneducated, or that their children would be poor and abused if they had them. Support your assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. Support your statement that women who are pregnant must stop to take care of a child.

And allow me to pose a question to you...do you think it's better that women who are abused continue to be abused and their children killed by an organization that doesn't properly screen for abuse, and when it finds it, doesn't report?

It was your contention that these women are likely to be abused, yes? Is it a stretch to think that if they had children, they would also be abused?

A woman is trying to get ahead by attending college. College is expensive. She gets pregnant and decides to (or is coerced into) carry to term. She is forced to drop out in order to care for the baby because child care is expensive, and being a full time mother is time consuming, demanding, and also expensive. Without the college degree, she is less in demand in the work force and has to scrape by on menial jobs. Between motherhood and work, where is the time or money to try and go back to school?

I did not make the assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. In some cases though, it might be a matter of taste. Some people think it is better to die in childbirth, starve in misery, or die in a war than to have never lived at all.

My own preference would be adoption. I was adopted, my father in law was adopted, and I have an adopted son who is now an adult with 2 adopted kids of his own. If my 13 year old daughter were raped and got pregnant, I would support abortion in that case.

As far as the abuse questions go, of course I don't think that women should be abused, nor do I think they should remain in an abusive relationship. I don't know if domestic abuse is something that is part of planned parenthood's charter. Perhaps it should be. Should that disqualify a person seeking an abortion? Perhaps the woman wants to get away and doesn't want to carry her abuser's child.

 

[copsnrobbers]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?


Right about where the head of the unborn child is about to be crushed.

 

[koshergrl]

Please support your assertion that women who obtain abortions would otherwise be "doomed" to remain poor and uneducated, or that their children would be poor and abused if they had them. Support your assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. Support your statement that women who are pregnant must stop to take care of a child.

And allow me to pose a question to you...do you think it's better that women who are abused continue to be abused and their children killed by an organization that doesn't properly screen for abuse, and when it finds it, doesn't report?

It was your contention that these women are likely to be abused, yes? Is it a stretch to think that if they had children, they would also be abused?

A woman is trying to get ahead by attending college. College is expensive. She gets pregnant and decides to (or is coerced into) carry to term. She is forced to drop out in order to care for the baby because child care is expensive, and being a full time mother is time consuming, demanding, and also expensive. Without the college degree, she is less in demand in the work force and has to scrape by on menial jobs. Between motherhood and work, where is the time or money to try and go back to school?

I did not make the assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. In some cases though, it might be a matter of taste. Some people think it is better to die in childbirth, starve in misery, or die in a war than to have never lived at all.

My own preference would be adoption. I was adopted, my father in law was adopted, and I have an adopted son who is now an adult with 2 adopted kids of his own. If my 13 year old daughter were raped and got pregnant, I would support abortion in that case.

As far as the abuse questions go, of course I don't think that women should be abused, nor do I think they should remain in an abusive relationship. I don't know if domestic abuse is something that is part of planned parenthood's charter. Perhaps it should be. Should that disqualify a person seeking an abortion? Perhaps the woman wants to get away and doesn't want to carry her abuser's child.

Preference and taste have no place when it comes to determining whether another person should live or not. And your personal hypotheticals do not support your previous assertions.

There is no evidence that abortion reduces the incidence of child abuse/neglect/poverty. There is plenty of evidence that coercion is a very real issue when it comes to women obtaining abortions (64 percent maintain that they were pressured..that's a huge number).

 

[Borillar]

Please support your assertion that women who obtain abortions would otherwise be "doomed" to remain poor and uneducated, or that their children would be poor and abused if they had them. Support your assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. Support your statement that women who are pregnant must stop to take care of a child.

And allow me to pose a question to you...do you think it's better that women who are abused continue to be abused and their children killed by an organization that doesn't properly screen for abuse, and when it finds it, doesn't report?

It was your contention that these women are likely to be abused, yes? Is it a stretch to think that if they had children, they would also be abused?

A woman is trying to get ahead by attending college. College is expensive. She gets pregnant and decides to (or is coerced into) carry to term. She is forced to drop out in order to care for the baby because child care is expensive, and being a full time mother is time consuming, demanding, and also expensive. Without the college degree, she is less in demand in the work force and has to scrape by on menial jobs. Between motherhood and work, where is the time or money to try and go back to school?

I did not make the assertion that dead is preferable to poor and uneducated. In some cases though, it might be a matter of taste. Some people think it is better to die in childbirth, starve in misery, or die in a war than to have never lived at all.

My own preference would be adoption. I was adopted, my father in law was adopted, and I have an adopted son who is now an adult with 2 adopted kids of his own. If my 13 year old daughter were raped and got pregnant, I would support abortion in that case.

As far as the abuse questions go, of course I don't think that women should be abused, nor do I think they should remain in an abusive relationship. I don't know if domestic abuse is something that is part of planned parenthood's charter. Perhaps it should be. Should that disqualify a person seeking an abortion? Perhaps the woman wants to get away and doesn't want to carry her abuser's child.

Preference and taste have no place when it comes to determining whether another person should live or not. And your personal hypotheticals do not support your previous assertions.

There is no evidence that abortion reduces the incidence of child abuse/neglect/poverty. There is plenty of evidence that coercion is a very real issue when it comes to women obtaining abortions (64 percent maintain that they were pressured..that's a huge number).

Yes, obviously children born into a situation where there is domestic abuse, neglect, and poverty will suddenly transform everything into goodness and light. There is probably just as much coercion wrt women carrying to term.

As far as preference and taste, neither yours or mine count for anything. We have settled case law supported by the 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the constitution supporting a woman's right to choose. You may not like it, but it is what it is.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Where to draw the line on abortion? Late term only.