Which side do you come down on

[Lonestar_logic]

Members vow to fulfill the oaths to the Constitution that they swore while in the military or law enforcement. "Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and we will not obey unconstitutional (and thus illegal) and immoral orders," the group says. Oath Keepers lists 10 orders its members won't obey, including two that reference U.S. concentration camps.

That's not something liberals in power will be too happy with!

Really? Who the hell was defending those very rights when Bush was imprisoning Americans without proper legal cause or procedure. It sure wasn't you faux Conservatives. In fact, you were cheering the whole thing on, just as you did in the case of ol' Tail Gunner Joe.

The fact is, you people are as big a bunch of hypocrits as ever existed.

Could you provide a list of Americans that Bush had imprisoned without proper legal cause or procedure?

 

[noose4]

Oh, I see... Bush is a problem, again.

I don't know where were these guys whan Bush was a POTUS.

I do know that Bush's DHS never accused returning members of armed forces to be potentional terrorists and place them on a watch lists.

Btw, you haven't replied to my previous question: Since when is upholding the Constitution radical right and anti American thing?

and neither did this one, all that is said by limbaugh and hannity etc, is not the truth, you should check stuff like that out for yourself.

if upholding the constitution was what this group was actually about it would be great, but these are just potential mcveighs in waiting, its a shame that there are decent people wrongly getting involved with this bunch.

Oh, I see. Do you maybe feel that American soldiers shouldn't be able to wear American flags? They swore to the flag too. Or would you rather see them having "Lenin" patch on their shoulder and "code pink" flag.

If these patches make you or anyone else "nervous", then they've done their job.

You know what, we got here plenty of former military, so why don't you tell them that they are terrorists?

the American flag is an authorized patch for the uniform this radical anti American groups patch is not, and yes military members and law enforcement officials belonging to radical anti American groups makes me nervous, timothy mcveigh had this mindset and look how many innocent Americans died because of it.

 

[noose4]

I thought that I was pretty clear when I wrote: "It identifies the ideology that we should be pushing for". Do I need to explain further that ideology is called in our Constitution, you know... part where our founding fathers are talking about Republic, liberty, freedom, our rights, etc.

Now, if you please, explain to me, since when is upholding the Constitution radical right and anti American thing? I would really like to know that!

where were these guys during bush? contrary to whack job right wing radio, unlike bush, President Obama has done nothing that can be considered unconstitutional

Agreed. Neither did Bush.

the patriot act was questionably unconstitutional. (i personally had no problem with the patriot act as a tool against terrorist activity)

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Could you provide a list of Americans that Bush had imprisoned without proper legal cause or procedure?

The list contains zero names. The notion that Bush and Cheney were rounding up people in the dead of night and reading your e-mails from Aunt Matilda was a propaganda from the looney left.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

And only the looney left believed any of it.

 

[noose4]

Could you provide a list of Americans that Bush had imprisoned without proper legal cause or procedure?

The list contains zero names. The notion that Bush and Cheney were rounding up people in the dead of night and reading your e-mails from Aunt Matilda was a propaganda from the looney left.

USATODAY.com - Arrested Bush dissenters look to the courts

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Exactly... And the looney left chimes in. Your URL is hardly evidence of people being rounded up under provisions of the patriot Act as I spoke.

Next.

 

[noose4]

Exactly... And the looney left chimes in. Your URL is hardly evidence of people being rounded up under provisions of the patriot Act as I spoke.

Next.

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

and neither did this one, all that is said by limbaugh and hannity etc, is not the truth, you should check stuff like that out for yourself.

if upholding the constitution was what this group was actually about it would be great, but these are just potential mcveighs in waiting, its a shame that there are decent people wrongly getting involved with this bunch.

Oh, I see. Do you maybe feel that American soldiers shouldn't be able to wear American flags? They swore to the flag too. Or would you rather see them having "Lenin" patch on their shoulder and "code pink" flag.

If these patches make you or anyone else "nervous", then they've done their job.

You know what, we got here plenty of former military, so why don't you tell them that they are terrorists?

the American flag is an authorized patch for the uniform this radical anti American groups patch is not, and yes military members and law enforcement officials belonging to radical anti American groups makes me nervous, timothy mcveigh had this mindset and look how many innocent Americans died because of it.

You have yet to prove this group is anti-American. And since you're making the claim that military and law enforcement members belong to anti-American groups, you could provide evidence of that as well.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

I have NO problem with Americans wearing ANY t-shirt they wish. These people were arrested, apparantly for failure to adhere to security provisions of the event.
Again though, I don't see any evidence that the Patriot Act was invoked as you seem to be claiming. Stick to your own premise...

 

[noose4]

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

I have NO problem with Americans wearing ANY t-shirt they wish. These people were arrested, apparantly for failure to adhere to security provisions of the event.
Again though, I don't see any evidence that the Patriot Act was invoked as you seem to be claiming. Stick to your own premise...

like already stated:

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

So they say... I'm sure in their opinion they were all very well behaved. Until I hear otherwise, sounds like just another bunch who were arrested claiming they did nothing wrong. Nothing new here.. prisons are full of innocent people. Just ask them.

This article does not support your claim that they were arrested under provisions of the Patriot Act. I have nothing to add here, you have not made your case, only changed the subject when your argument ran out of gas.

Next.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Exactly... And the looney left chimes in. Your URL is hardly evidence of people being rounded up under provisions of the patriot Act as I spoke.

Next.

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

Did you read the link you provided? They were not arrested for simply wearing dissenting t-shirts. Oh and there is no evidence that any of their rights were violated, e.g. habeas corpus.


Bottom line is... you fail!

 

[noose4]

so you have no problem with American citizens being arrested for wearing dissenting t shirts in the presence of republican presidents, duly noted.

So they say... I'm sure in their opinion they were all very well behaved. Until I hear otherwise, sounds like just another bunch who were arrested claiming they did nothing wrong. Nothing new here.. prisons are full of innocent people. Just ask them.

This article does not support your claim that they were arrested under provisions of the Patriot Act. I have nothing to add here, you have not made your case, only changed the subject when your argument ran out of gas.

Next.

Trespass Charges Dropped Against "Love America, Hate Bush" T-Shirt Protesters

 

[PatekPhilippe]

where were these guys during bush? contrary to whack job right wing radio, unlike bush, President Obama has done nothing that can be considered unconstitutional

Agreed. Neither did Bush.

the patriot act was questionably unconstitutional. (i personally had no problem with the patriot act as a tool against terrorist activity)

Yet your democrat controlled Senate passed it WITH NO DEBATE in 2002. Hmmmmmmmmm. I think the Patriot Act was indeed constitutional and Obama agrees with me.....he plans on continuing it..indefinately!

 

[PixieStix]

And she continues, this crazy bitch needed t be arrested

 

[noose4]

Agreed. Neither did Bush.

the patriot act was questionably unconstitutional. (i personally had no problem with the patriot act as a tool against terrorist activity)

Yet your democrat controlled Senate passed it WITH NO DEBATE in 2002. Hmmmmmmmmm. I think the Patriot Act was indeed constitutional and Obama agrees with me.....he plans on continuing it..indefinately!

you see the word questionably in my post? you see where i said i had no problem with it?

 

[pinqy]

The current enlistment oath is

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

and the oath for officers is

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

So military members are already sworn to support and defend the Constitution...so what's the point of an oath swearing to uphold something that's already been sworn? And noticebally absent from the Oathkeepers is obedience to the orders of the President and officers and regulations and the UCMJ.

Now let's go through the points:

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

Vague. And such an order would not necessarilly be unconstitutional. For example you certainly do not have the right to bring weapons onto a military installation or to a courthouse etc. Is that "disarming" the American people? And does this include refusing to enforce currently existing state and local laws on weapons? If the intent is only a mass roundup of all weapons without legal backing (such as repeal of the 2nd ammendment) then this is already covered under supporting the Constitution and there's no need to specify.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

Not all searches require warrents. Entry to a Federal installation includes consent to be searched. Are the oathkeepers seriously saying they won't conduct such warrantless searches?

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

This is contrary to the oath of enlistment and the commissioning oath which specifies all enemies, foreign and domestic.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

Again in violation of the oath of enlistment unless the martial law/state of emergency orders are shown to be unlawful.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

Again, a violation of the enlistment oath/commissioning oath.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control.".

These are just silly. Why would anyone think these are a possibility?

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

Depending on circumstances, these would not necessarilly be unlawful orders either.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

This one's just ironic. Being in the military requires giving up certain rights...such as free speech and assembly.

Overall, there's no real point to these, other than to fear-monger and imply abuses that there's no rartional reason to believe will occur.

 

[Ame®icano]

so you can wear any patch you want when in a hot zone? it was a legit question, when i was in the Marines we were not allowed such deviations from the required uniform and especially not patches from radical right wing anti American groups.

Same here....the patches had to regulation or some squadron patch, etc. NOTHING from an outside group or cause.

Yep, was in the Navy and i assure you that if you ever put an unregulated patch on any uniform, whether your working uniform or dress uniform, you would be going to captains mast (a sort of mini court where the Captain is the judge and jury, its also one step below a court martial). I would imagine if you made this mistake on my base in Lemoore, California, youd get sent to the jail crew to pick up trash for a month, with half months pay. The captain could send you for up to 2 months though if he felt like it.

The Navy is much more lenient though than the other armed forces, like the Marines for example. If you pulled that crap on a Marine uniform, they would lose their minds and go fucking ape shit on your ass. If any of you have ever served in the military for long periods with Marines, you know exactly what im talking about. They take that shit really seriously. Hell, they will lose their minds if you are simply wearing a wrinkled shirt.

It must take a big set of brass balls to put that patch on and wear it in front of other military personell. I dont see how you could possibly last even a day without getting busted.

What if wearing that patch is encouraged by the commanders? What if those patches are reminder to soldiers of their constitutional duties? What if they are reminder to commanders not to issue orders that were unconstitutional?

Soldier under Oath to Constitution and patch at his shoulder does not need research time so that he can twist and turn constitutional meanings. He knows his stance going in. This is a point of honor and integrity, of having sound foundation and of knowing where you are so that split decisions came be made.

Those who would like to dismiss a badge of honor as a cute little patch are not making any effort to understand the heart and soul of a soldier. Those do not understand the commitment to serve, the cost that it asks of one who makes this oath to uphold the Constitutional or how ridiculous it is for them to hear criticism from someone whose greatest commitment is to buy a Big Mack and a Red Bull.

I don't think that anyone in the armed forces would complain about those patches, because they know and believe to what they stand for.

 

[noose4]

Same here....the patches had to regulation or some squadron patch, etc. NOTHING from an outside group or cause.

Yep, was in the Navy and i assure you that if you ever put an unregulated patch on any uniform, whether your working uniform or dress uniform, you would be going to captains mast (a sort of mini court where the Captain is the judge and jury, its also one step below a court martial). I would imagine if you made this mistake on my base in Lemoore, California, youd get sent to the jail crew to pick up trash for a month, with half months pay. The captain could send you for up to 2 months though if he felt like it.

The Navy is much more lenient though than the other armed forces, like the Marines for example. If you pulled that crap on a Marine uniform, they would lose their minds and go fucking ape shit on your ass. If any of you have ever served in the military for long periods with Marines, you know exactly what im talking about. They take that shit really seriously. Hell, they will lose their minds if you are simply wearing a wrinkled shirt.

It must take a big set of brass balls to put that patch on and wear it in front of other military personell. I dont see how you could possibly last even a day without getting busted.

What if wearing that patch is encouraged by the commanders? What if those patches are reminder to soldiers of their constitutional duties? What if they are reminder to commanders not to issue orders that were unconstitutional?

Soldier under Oath to Constitution and patch at his shoulder does not need research time so that he can twist and turn constitutional meanings. He knows his stance going in. This is a point of honor and integrity, of having sound foundation and of knowing where you are so that split decisions came be made.

Those who would like to dismiss a badge of honor as a cute little patch are not making any effort to understand the heart and soul of a soldier. Those do not understand the commitment to serve, the cost that it asks of one who makes this oath to uphold the Constitutional or how ridiculous it is for them to hear criticism from someone whose greatest commitment is to buy a Big Mack and a Red Bull.

I don't think that anyone in the armed forces would complain about those patches, because they know and believe to what they stand for.

then the commanders should face charges for pushing a radical right wing political group, and the American flag patch and unit designation patch that is authorized and worn upon the uniform are the badge of honor not this groups patches.