Who else is excited for Rand Paul's presidency?

[JakeStarkey]

Libertarians, shut up. Your beliefs and assertions are not evidence. I like many of your online personas, but this argument that taxation ipso fact is theft in a We the People representative government is horse crap. That markets, governments, and cultural oppression don't go hand in hand is horse crap.

Yes, it is a lack of critical thinking and it is a refusal to acknowledge the baseness of human nature that leads to libertarianism.

 

[Ernie S.]

The intellectual qualification for a Rand Paul supporter is you say 'freedom' no matter what the event or issue. It has to be one of the dumbest ideological frames in all of history. Think about any thing at all, and then say 'freedom' and you pretty much have the ideology's primary and secondary ideas summed up.

well, that's what they say, anyway. you can't be a libertarian and be anti-choice.

they're just dumb.

What is this "anti-choice" shit. We prefer "pro-life" and we don't label you as "pro-death".

Civil discourse and all, Jillian. I thought you were for that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We hear "pro death" from the stupid heads all the time against those who are correctly pro-life with exceptions of rape, incest, and life of the mother.

 

[rightwinger]

The free market of society enacted and enforced Jim Crow.

Nonsense. How does a free market impose Jim Crow laws on people? Pretty sure you need a government for that.

I'm not talking the economic free market even though it was involved in punishing businesses that did not toe the line on Jim Crow as much as the social free market that enforced the rules on both blacks and whites

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Libertarians, shut up. Your beliefs and assertions are not evidence. I like many of your online personas, but this argument that taxation ipso fact is theft in a We the People representative government is horse crap. That markets, governments, and cultural oppression don't go hand in hand is horse crap.

Yes, it is a lack of critical thinking and it is a refusal to acknowledge the baseness of human nature that leads to libertarianism.

Neither are yours.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The intellectual qualification for a Rand Paul supporter is you say 'freedom' no matter what the event or issue. It has to be one of the dumbest ideological frames in all of history. Think about any thing at all, and then say 'freedom' and you pretty much have the ideology's primary and secondary ideas summed up.

well, that's what they say, anyway. you can't be a libertarian and be anti-choice.

they're just dumb.

What is this "anti-choice" shit. We prefer "pro-life" and we don't label you as "pro-death".

Civil discourse and all, Jillian. I thought you were for that.

Civil discourse, so long as you agree with her.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The free market of society enacted and enforced Jim Crow.

Nonsense. How does a free market impose Jim Crow laws on people? Pretty sure you need a government for that.

I'm not talking the economic free market even though it was involved in punishing businesses that did not toe the line on Jim Crow as much as the social free market that enforced the rules on both blacks and whites

Oh, so you're just making up some different free market that has nothing to do with the actual free market. You should have said so from the start.

 

[dblack]

The free market of society enacted and enforced Jim Crow.

Nonsense. How does a free market impose Jim Crow laws on people? Pretty sure you need a government for that.

I'm not talking the economic free market even though it was involved in punishing businesses that did not toe the line on Jim Crow as much as the social free market that enforced the rules on both blacks and whites

What is a 'social' free market???

 

[rightwinger]

Nonsense. How does a free market impose Jim Crow laws on people? Pretty sure you need a government for that.

I'm not talking the economic free market even though it was involved in punishing businesses that did not toe the line on Jim Crow as much as the social free market that enforced the rules on both blacks and whites

Oh, so you're just making up some different free market that has nothing to do with the actual free market. You should have said so from the start.

I made sure to reference the free market of society which libertarians prefer to government intervention. In terms of Jim Crow....society failed

So do libertarians

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm not talking the economic free market even though it was involved in punishing businesses that did not toe the line on Jim Crow as much as the social free market that enforced the rules on both blacks and whites

Oh, so you're just making up some different free market that has nothing to do with the actual free market. You should have said so from the start.

I made sure to reference the free market of society which libertarians prefer to government intervention. In terms of Jim Crow....society failed

So do libertarians

Jim Crow laws were government failures. Racism was a societal failure, and remains to be so. The free market has nothing to do with it. Regardless, you have no right to infringe on the property rights of a racist anymore than you have to infringe their right to freedom of speech.

 

[whitehall]

A wasted vote for the actual true believers and a typical democrat dirty trick to syphon votes for everyone else.

 

[dblack]

I made sure to reference the free market of society which libertarians prefer to government intervention. In terms of Jim Crow....society failed

So do libertarians

How does the 'free market of society' (whatever it's supposed to mean) equate to discriminatory Jim Crow laws?

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying Jim Crow laws are not government intervention?? Can you clarify?

 

[rightwinger]

I made sure to reference the free market of society which libertarians prefer to government intervention. In terms of Jim Crow....society failed

So do libertarians

How does the 'free market of society' (whatever it's supposed to mean) equate to discriminatory Jim Crow laws?

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying Jim Crow laws are not government intervention?? Can you clarify?

It is those societal laws which are not imposed by government. Most of Jim Crow "laws" were not in writing, but in social mores enforced by the public (or the klan). It was these laws that forced blacks to be subservient to whites, to not appear "uppity", to act as an equal or superior to whites, to never, ever flirt with a white woman.
Libertarians like to say that these unwritten laws should be left to the "free market" to resolve. That if you don't want to serve blacks, you don't have to. If you want to segregate or discriminate in your business...it is your right. The "free market" will ultimately fix it

Well, in 100 years, it never did

 

[dblack]

It is those societal laws which are not imposed by government. Most of Jim Crow "laws" were not in writing, but in social mores enforced by the public (or the klan). It was these laws that forced blacks to be subservient to whites, to not appear "uppity", to act as an equal or superior to whites, to never, ever flirt with a white woman.
Libertarians like to say that these unwritten laws should be left to the "free market" to resolve. That if you don't want to serve blacks, you don't have to. If you want to segregate or discriminate in your business...it is your right. The "free market" will ultimately fix it

Well, in 100 years, it never did

Only people can fix something like racism. A free market can help - as money has a way a being 'color-blind' - but it won't make a big difference if the pre-dominant mindset of the people is built on racial bigotry.

Anyway, you seem to be backing off on your attempt to conflate free markets with racism, so I appreciate that much. But I'm still not entirely sure what you mean by a "social free market" is. "Unwritten laws" are either enforced, or not. If they're enforced by vigilante justice, well - that's nowhere advocated in libertarian ideology. If they're enforced by government via discriminatory laws, we're definitely opposed to that. We will defend an individual's right to associate with who they want, when they want, regardless of how irrational their preferences might be. Maybe to you that's a bad thing. Maybe what you don't like about a 'social free market' is it allows people hold irrational opinions. hmmm.... be careful what you wish for?

 

[JakeStarkey]

dblack's argument is refuted here. Southern monoculture agricultural fueled by overheated markets inspired and protected slavery.

Libertarianism appeals to the base nature of man, not the best.

Oh, so you're just making up some different free market that has nothing to do with the actual free market. You should have said so from the start.

I made sure to reference the free market of society which libertarians prefer to government intervention. In terms of Jim Crow....society failed

So do libertarians

Jim Crow laws were government failures. Racism was a societal failure, and remains to be so. The free market has nothing to do with it. Regardless, you have no right to infringe on the property rights of a racist anymore than you have to infringe their right to freedom of speech.

 

[rightwinger]

It is those societal laws which are not imposed by government. Most of Jim Crow "laws" were not in writing, but in social mores enforced by the public (or the klan). It was these laws that forced blacks to be subservient to whites, to not appear "uppity", to act as an equal or superior to whites, to never, ever flirt with a white woman.
Libertarians like to say that these unwritten laws should be left to the "free market" to resolve. That if you don't want to serve blacks, you don't have to. If you want to segregate or discriminate in your business...it is your right. The "free market" will ultimately fix it

Well, in 100 years, it never did

Only people can fix something like racism. A free market can help - as money has a way a being 'color-blind' - but it won't make a big difference if the pre-dominant mindset of the people is built on racial bigotry.

Anyway, you seem to be backing off on your attempt to conflate free markets with racism, so I appreciate that much. But I'm still not entirely sure what you mean by a "social free market" is. "Unwritten laws" are either enforced, or not. If they're enforced by vigilante justice, well - that's nowhere advocated in libertarian ideology. If they're enforced by government via discriminatory laws, we're definitely opposed to that. We will defend an individual's right to associate with who they want, when they want, regardless of how irrational their preferences might be. Maybe to you that's a bad thing. Maybe what you don't like about a 'social free market' is it allows people hold irrational opinions. hmmm.... be careful what you wish for?

As you seem unable to comprehend the idea of social free market forces, lets talk about the economic free market as it applied to Jim Crow

If you owned a restaurant in the south and it was perfectly fine with you to serve and employ both blacks and whites equally, the economic free market would have quickly resulted in your white customers boycotting your business and your suppliers refusing to do business with you.

No single business could have stood up to Jim Crow on its own. It took laws to ensure that all businesses would comply and there was a level playing field

Rand Paul is perfectly fine with allowing business to discriminate against anyone they wish

 

[dblack]

As you seem unable to comprehend the idea of social free market forces ...

Hold on. I'm not ready to give up just yet. I'd like to actually understand what you're talking about. It's just not making sense so far.

If you owned a restaurant in the south and it was perfectly fine with you to serve and employ both blacks and whites equally, the economic free market would have quickly resulted in your white customers boycotting your business and your suppliers refusing to do business with you.

Right. I think I covered that in my post. Freedom won't make a dent in racism if society is populated by a bunch of racists. It can be an opportunity or people who have different ideas to be heard - as long as their freedom is indeed protect by government. The problem in the South wasn't that people were free to dislike blacks, or that they were allowed to refuse to do business with them. The problem was that people who did want to associate with blacks were subject to vigilante attacks (from groups like the KKK, etc... ), attacks that were either ignored or tacitly supported by the standing government.

Rand Paul is perfectly fine with allowing business to discriminate against anyone they wish

That's true. As am I. Part of the trade-off with a society where people are free to think for themselves, is that sometimes people form opinions you don't agree with.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Anyone can believe anything they like.

However, they can't let those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

That is what states' rights, monocultures, and white majorities did to the African Americans right through the 1960s.

Rand is wrong, you are wrong, and the Civl Rights Act was right.

As you seem unable to comprehend the idea of social free market forces ...

Hold on. I'm not ready to give up just yet. I'd like to actually understand what you're talking about. It's just not making sense so far.

If you owned a restaurant in the south and it was perfectly fine with you to serve and employ both blacks and whites equally, the economic free market would have quickly resulted in your white customers boycotting your business and your suppliers refusing to do business with you.

Right. I think I covered that in my post. Freedom won't make a dent in racism if society is populated by a bunch of racists. It can be an opportunity or people who have different ideas to be heard - as long as their freedom is indeed protect by government. The problem in the South wasn't that people were free to dislike blacks, or that they were allowed to refuse to do business with them. The problem was that people who did want to associate with blacks were subject to vigilante attacks (from groups like the KKK, etc... ), attacks that were either ignored or tacitly supported by the standing government.

Rand Paul is perfectly fine with allowing business to discriminate against anyone they wish

That's true. As am I. Part of the trade-off with a society where people are free to think for themselves, is that sometimes people form opinions you don't agree with.

 

[dblack]

Anyone can believe anything they like.

However, they can't let those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

Exactly. Which is why it's crucial we have a clear understanding of the nature of rights. The notion that anyone has a 'right' to force others to do business with them isn't coherent. No one has a 'right' to be treated equally by society at large. The right to free association is, on the other hand, an inalienable right that government is constitutionally bound to protect.

 

[rightwinger]

Anyone can believe anything they like.

However, they can't let those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

Exactly. Which is why it's crucial we have a clear understanding of the nature of rights. The notion that anyone has a 'right' to force others to do business with them isn't coherent. No one has a 'right' to be treated equally by society at large. The right to free association is, on the other hand, an inalienable right that government is constitutionally bound to protect.

Courts have found that you have a right to free association as it relates to your personal relationships. However, they do not extend that right to businesses operating in the public domain

You may not like serving blacks.....but you cannot turn them away