Who is responsible for YOU?

[editec]

edit.. what you derive as compensation is up to your choices...

If you choose to work a job that can be done by anyone with a pulse and takes no great skill, the demand and incentive to give you higher compensation will not be there, as you are easily replaceable...

Oh that's such utter bullshit.

There are millions of workers who are doing tasks that require enormous skill and experience who are bearly making a living, DD.

My X did her undergrade aa Penn. She has her masters in Public Policy (from UMO) and was awarded (up graduation) the title " Graduate Student of the year".

The duties she does to make her organization fuctional are not something anyone can just come in an do. Don't be absurd.

She makes a bearly liveable wage and is struggling to pay off the enormous costs of her education at the same time. The woman's a freakin saint, and one whose skill sets are extremly complex and require enormous skills, for christ's sakes.

You could no more step into her shoes and do her duties than you could fly by flapping your diplomas.

if, you choose to train at a higher skill, provide a rare service, etc, you will be able to earn more... it is a simple fact of life

Tell THAT myth to the highly techically qualified, but recently laid off, technocrats in the banking and finance community. While you're at it tell them EXACTLY what skill sets they should be getting RIGHT NOW.

All 500,000 of them soon to be unemployed or already unemployed would have told us --as recently as last year, -- EXACTLY the same myth of the market value of their skills that you just told me.

Do wake up before it's too late, amigo.

I was once ALSO one of those people who was extremely well paid, until my skills sets were no longer necessary.

This kind of career destroying evaporation of your worth happens to all sorts of highly edcuated and very productive workers and managment types when your society is changing as rapidly as ours is.

If events continue to unfold as they have been of late, your job is very likely in the block, too.

I don't know what YOU do, but there's plenty of highly intelligent and qualified foreignors ready willing and able to work for 1/10th what you are probably making.

You'll be just one more highly skilled worker who cannot make a living right along with the millions which already are asking you if you want to supersize your meal.

The graveyards that are the State employment offices all over this land, are already highly populated by people who imagined that they were irreplaceable, and their jobs secure.

 

[DiamondDave]

edit.. what you derive as compensation is up to your choices...

If you choose to work a job that can be done by anyone with a pulse and takes no great skill, the demand and incentive to give you higher compensation will not be there, as you are easily replaceable...

Oh that's such utter bullshit.

There are millions of workers who are doing tasks that require enormous skill and experience who are bearly making a living, DD.

My X is a Penn Grad. She has her masters in Public Policy and was awarded (up graduation) the title " Grauate Student of the year".

The duties she does to make her organization fuctional are not something anyone can just come in an do. don't be absurd.
]
She makes a bearly liveable wage.

You could no more step into her shoes and do her jobs than you can fly.

if, you choose to train at a higher skill, provide a rare service, etc, you will be able to earn more... it is a simple fact of life

Tell THAT myth to the highly techically qualified, but recently laid off, technocrats in the banking and finance community.

All 500,000 of them who are at risk or already unemployed would have told me EXACTLY the same thing you just told me, LAST YEAR!

Do wake up, amigo. If events continue to unforld as they have been, you're job is very likely in the block, too.

The graveyard is highly populated by people who imagined that they were irreplaceable.

If you have a 'skill' that is something that is in demand and hardly anyone can do.. and you 'barely make a livable wage'.. you CERTAINLY did something wrong.. which of course be as simple as choosing that career path in the first place... now if he/she chose that and accepts the fact that it will never be high paying (like a teacher, for example)... then it is STILL their choice that landed them in that situation

I have been laid off twice... in a highly technical field.. and it was not easy to find the next job, unless I wanted to go back about 3 stages in my career... so I had 3 choices... 1) Wait it out.. 2) Take a job I am overqualified for for less money... 3) Move away to an area where there is not a glut of technical managers in Telecom that have recently been laid off...

Do not forget demand being an important factor.... if there are 100 companies employing 1000 technical managers... and business demand forces 50 of those companies out of business... the other 50 are not going to have to double the amount of managers.. and hence the demand for managers will go down, and the price, if those other companies have an opening, will go down because there is a glut of available talent....

 

[Yukon]

For those who served as a "GI Joe" the government is responsible for them - they live on welfare.

 

[sealybobo]

America isn't a country that practices every man is for himself. Our government is set up so that the more fortunate help the less fortunate. Hopefully you will never be one of the less fortunate, but if you are, we got your back.

We are all in this together.

 

[sealybobo]

edit.. what you derive as compensation is up to your choices...



Oh that's such utter bullshit.

There are millions of workers who are doing tasks that require enormous skill and experience who are bearly making a living, DD.

My X is a Penn Grad. She has her masters in Public Policy and was awarded (up graduation) the title " Grauate Student of the year".

The duties she does to make her organization fuctional are not something anyone can just come in an do. don't be absurd.
]
She makes a bearly liveable wage.

You could no more step into her shoes and do her jobs than you can fly.



Tell THAT myth to the highly techically qualified, but recently laid off, technocrats in the banking and finance community.

All 500,000 of them who are at risk or already unemployed would have told me EXACTLY the same thing you just told me, LAST YEAR!

Do wake up, amigo. If events continue to unforld as they have been, you're job is very likely in the block, too.

The graveyard is highly populated by people who imagined that they were irreplaceable.

If you have a 'skill' that is something that is in demand and hardly anyone can do.. and you 'barely make a livable wage'.. you CERTAINLY did something wrong.. which of course be as simple as choosing that career path in the first place... now if he/she chose that and accepts the fact that it will never be high paying (like a teacher, for example)... then it is STILL their choice that landed them in that situation

I have been laid off twice... in a highly technical field.. and it was not easy to find the next job, unless I wanted to go back about 3 stages in my career... so I had 3 choices... 1) Wait it out.. 2) Take a job I am overqualified for for less money... 3) Move away to an area where there is not a glut of technical managers in Telecom that have recently been laid off...

Do not forget demand being an important factor.... if there are 100 companies employing 1000 technical managers... and business demand forces 50 of those companies out of business... the other 50 are not going to have to double the amount of managers.. and hence the demand for managers will go down, and the price, if those other companies have an opening, will go down because there is a glut of available talent....

Is that why they sent all the manufacturing jobs overseas? So they could lower how much they pay factory workers?

Well that is killing the American economy and middle class.

 

[DiamondDave]

For those who served as a "GI Joe" the government is responsible for them - they live on welfare.

Pure ignorance once again

A job within the government is not welfare...

No go see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

 

[sealybobo]

For those who served as a "GI Joe" the government is responsible for them - they live on welfare.

Pure ignorance once again

A job within the government is not welfare...

No go see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

You guys used to call government jobs, GOVERNMENT WELFARE JOBS, because tax payers were paying the wages. You said you did not approve of jobs like this.

That is until Bush got into office and grew the government exponentially.

Bush's jobless numbers would be even worse than what we see now if he didn't hire all those Haloburton's and Blackwaters. He outsourced our military for god sakes. And he bankrupted the country on defense spending. Those jobs and contracts are all government jobs!!!!!!!!

You guys need to learn what a free market really is.

You don't oursource the army to Blackwater, a private company, and have them figting a war for profit. Then we'll never get out of the war, because they want to stay and continue to make money.

 

[KittenKoder]

For those who served as a "GI Joe" the government is responsible for them - they live on welfare.

You are the same type of scum as someone else ... if that was the case then enlist you moron.

 

[KittenKoder]

Here's the problem, people have forgotten how important and difficult these "unskilled" jobs are, though most of these wealthy couldn't wipe their own asses. However until the workers are ALL willing to remind them, it will never change.

 

[editec]

edit.. what you derive as compensation is up to your choices...



Oh that's such utter bullshit.

There are millions of workers who are doing tasks that require enormous skill and experience who are bearly making a living, DD.

My X is a Penn Grad. She has her masters in Public Policy and was awarded (up graduation) the title " Grauate Student of the year".

The duties she does to make her organization fuctional are not something anyone can just come in an do. don't be absurd.
]
She makes a bearly liveable wage.

You could no more step into her shoes and do her jobs than you can fly.



Tell THAT myth to the highly techically qualified, but recently laid off, technocrats in the banking and finance community.

All 500,000 of them who are at risk or already unemployed would have told me EXACTLY the same thing you just told me, LAST YEAR!

Do wake up, amigo. If events continue to unforld as they have been, you're job is very likely in the block, too.

The graveyard is highly populated by people who imagined that they were irreplaceable.

If you have a 'skill' that is something that is in demand and hardly anyone can do.. and you 'barely make a livable wage'.. you CERTAINLY did something wrong.. which of course be as simple as choosing that career path in the first place... now if he/she chose that and accepts the fact that it will never be high paying (like a teacher, for example)... then it is STILL their choice that landed them in that situation

Great theory. Now try running that theory up the flagpole for the technicians of banking and finance who are losing their jobs by the tens-of-thousands this month.

A year or two ago, their skills were highly paid. Now they're worth chacha.

Did they choose the wrong career, DD, or did society change so suddenly that they are merely the victims of a society which evolves faster than the people can change to satisfy it?

I have been laid off twice... in a highly technical field.. and it was not easy to find the next job, unless I wanted to go back about 3 stages in my career... so I had 3 choices... 1) Wait it out.. 2) Take a job I am overqualified for for less money... 3) Move away to an area where there is not a glut of technical managers in Telecom that have recently been laid off...

That's nice that you still had some options. I hope you keep having options.

Do not forget demand being an important factor.... if there are 100 companies employing 1000 technical managers... and business demand forces 50 of those companies out of business... the other 50 are not going to have to double the amount of managers.. and hence the demand for managers will go down, and the price, if those other companies have an opening, will go down because there is a glut of available talent....

Yeah, exactly.

Now, based on your above scenario, what mistake did that techical manager makes, exactly?

None at all.

So indtead of telling people that it's their faults, why not just admit that people living in a rapidly evolving society ---even those who have formal educations and enormous expereince -- can be victimized by those changes?

Why di you have SO MUCH DIFFICULTY admitting that there is NO REAL WAY for people to KNOW what their careers will be worth five or ten years into it?

It seems blantently obvious to me that with the rapidity of changes to our techologies, and our economy, too, that damned few of us have the resources to constantly be upgrading our skills like you imagine is so possible.

Whem for example, your skills are business managment, and you find yourself unemployed because the economy is on the skids, that you are not reducdants because your skills are outdated, you are unemployed because the economy is in the crapper.

You seriously don't get this?

And if you cannot get this, can you actually expect me to think you're intellectually my superior in ANY WAY?

Or can you expect me to say that you understand this society better than I do, given you apparent inability to get that not everyone can upgrade their skills because even if they could there are only so many billets for thosse skills?

I am mystified why some of you don't yet understand that many highly edcuated people, people with long track records of working successfully, are unemployed and cannot find work.

It seems like something even a computer jock or even an engineer might be able to understand if they gave it but a moments thought.

 

[sealybobo]

Here's the problem, people have forgotten how important and difficult these "unskilled" jobs are, though most of these wealthy couldn't wipe their own asses. However until the workers are ALL willing to remind them, it will never change.

They got us taking pay cuts so the company can survive. We are suckers. And when things go back to normal, will they give us raises?

Or will they give the CEO a $20 million bonus for successfully cutting wages.

 

[KittenKoder]

Here's the problem, people have forgotten how important and difficult these "unskilled" jobs are, though most of these wealthy couldn't wipe their own asses. However until the workers are ALL willing to remind them, it will never change.

They got us taking pay cuts so the company can survive. We are suckers. And when things go back to normal, will they give us raises?

Or will they give the CEO a $20 million bonus for successfully cutting wages.

I use to be in your shoes ... it's tough and unfair I know. But unless enough of you stand up it will never change. One possible way to prove it is a country wide strike for all labor jobs, about a week and they will be begging you to go back to work. Another is figure out how to go in business yourself, it's hard but well worth it. If the laborers left the companies and started their own (pooling the money together for a co-op, which are big business really) the companies would collapse and these desk jockies that underpay their employees would soon be broke, the balance of wealth would flip. The problem is that most are not willing to take the risk and that is the fault of the laborers.

 

[Bern80]

A lot of the pampered scions on this board simply haven't got a clue how hard many people work for their miserable wage.

How could they possible know since they've never done most of that sort of job?

It never ends with you does it editiec. It must be an involuntary thing that you have no control over seeing as you don't seem to have the ability to stop doing it. It is amazing how often you need to whip out this premise that has exactly zero evidence to make your argument work. How can you claim to have any credibility or integrity when you have to constantly do this?

FIRST and foremost it should be noted that deliberately avoided much of my post for obvious reasons, so let's not get into some tiff over who's the bigger man about being called out on their shit. You spoke of some 'Scions' on this board whos personal history you seem to know an awful lot about. Again, WHO ARE THEY? I ask because as far as oposition to your arguments go on this subject, it comes down to less than a handful of people and I'm usually one of them.

Do What?

My gift of pointing out the stunningly obvious contempt that some expressed for those who are not making it?

It'sa gift.

No, i was referring to your 'gift' for presuming other people's situation and background for the convenience of making your own argument, even when you have no evidnce whatsoever to back that presumption.

It isn't contempt for peole not making it simply because they aren't making it. It is contempt for people that refuse to acknowledge their own role in where they are. Just as no one is in 100% control of their destiny no one is blameless for where they find themselves. If you want me to acknowledge the former than you are going to have to acknowledge the later. If you want things to change you would have to, because what you dont' acknowledge will not change. if people dont' start plugging into the concept that they have, not 100%, but still considerable control over their outcomes, they will not achieve better outcomes.

We have had people here essantially telling us that the working poor need to suffer the indignity of working their asses off and not making it because they are lazy or didn't study hard enough in school.

You have to acknowledge at some level a choice was invovled for many of those people. You can't sit their and tell me these people that do hard work for little mony (these are generally jobs that don't require a lot of mental skill) are all or even almost all, incapaable of doing anything more.

They fear that if they admit that the system which served them well, serves others -- who also work their asses off -- very badly, then they'd have to admit that they are not the complete masters of their own destiny that they're telling themselves that they are.

For this argument to work it would have to be a truth that it was indeed the sysem that served people well as oppossed to one's effort within the system. Further no one here has stated that got everything on their own. That is as ridiculous as saying all poor people are just victims.

You worked hard for every advantage you have now you say? I do not doubt you worked hard.

But are you really the master or your own destiny?

Of course not.

I don't think I ever brought it up one way or the other. No I am not completely the master of my own destiny. I don't have control over unforseen events in the future. I understand that concept better than most because they indeed has happened to me. At the same time there are an awful lot of things I do have control over in terms of choices I can make that ultimately have far more influence on my future. That is a good way to think about things I think. You can't change the past, but you have considerable control over the future. In simply terms of improving my financial postion I have all kinds of choices. My rent lease is up in July so I am considering purchasing a small multi-plex for supplimental income. I would considered a first time home buyer so that would give me some help. I have been responsible with another thing I have control over, my credit so that will help me in getting a loan. I have a stable job so so that will be seen by lenders when i ask for a laon. All of those things Ed, were in MY control and all were CHOICES I made. And they directly effect what opportunities I have in the future. You can run your life or let life run you.

Life is a mixture of what you start out with, what you do with it, and what happens to you along the way.

And the what happens along the way is that which you have absolutely no control over.

That descibes the human experience, Bernie, yours, mine... everyones.

No it doesn't as I said above, there are an awful lot of people that let life happen to them. That is observeable everyday, Ed. The above is true to some extent. The difference in our opionion I guess is where is the balance. Look no further than how you CHOSE to write the sentence above. Instead writing something like life is what you make it you chose to the other slant that says your pretty much just a passenger on the ride of life

But so too did millions of other equally talented, equally hard working people work hard and they are in serious trouble right now.

Again this is dependant on how you value 'hard work'. The labor economy is like any other economy based on supply and demand. The skills sets that are scarcer are demanded more and pay more and intelligence based skills are rarer than physical based skills. I experienced this first hand working on an assembly line for a month (the rest of the time I work as a tech rep in a call center). On the assembly line you have to make a quota. It takes pretty good efficiency to meet that quota. You're on your feet all day, cosntantly moving. Yet the regular line workers get paid less than we do in the call center. Yes they are physically working harder than we do. Does that inherently mean they have a more valuabel skill set? Of course not. You can very easily make the argument that I have the more valuable skill set. First it takes all of a half hour to train pretty much anybody to do that job. This part goes on here, this goes there, that screw goes in there, repeat. They don't need to know how the product works even, just how to do those rudimentary tasks. I DO need to know how the product works in my job. I need to know how every product we make works inside and out. They don't need to be able communicate effectively with people. Talking to a hundred people a day, I do.

that myth which you cling to for your own self image doesn't have the resonance that truth does.

Is it a myth that I believe most people dont' exercise their full potential?

Is it a myth that I believe I have considerable control in shaping my future opportunites?

We either fix this system such that most people can make it, or Bernie?

This system will go down.

Or option C. People don't need to work harder. They need to learn how to work smarter. Most wealthy people know that little secret. You aren't doing any society an favors by trying to coddle it. All you do is keep it from adapting. THAT is when society goes down ed. When one's expectations are so low that when the shit hits the fan the only thing anyone knows to do cry for mommy government and start pointing fingers. We're practically there already.

American either decides to pay for social justice now, or America pays much more for not having insured that it existed.

that would be fine if everyone truly was just getting screwed despite their best efforts, but you know that isn't even close to true. Can you honestly tell me when you look at all the people you see day in and day out that where they are at is the peak of their potential?

You can take your supply side trickly down bullshit and you can shove it up your ass.

Do you get that?

Everything you think you know about the world is a fucking LIE, bernie.

Now you're just driveling. Time will prove me right Ed. When we turn into this nanny state you want i will be proven right. If things continue the way you see them I will be proven right because as I said before what you dont' acknowledge won't change. If people don't start conciously holding themselves accountable the stake of all these people you bemoan will not change.

 

[editec]

FIRST and foremost it should be noted that deliberately avoided much of my post for obvious reasons, so let's not get into some tiff over who's the bigger man about being called out on their shit. You spoke of some 'Scions' on this board whos personal history you seem to know an awful lot about. Again, WHO ARE THEY? I ask because as far as oposition to your arguments go on this subject, it comes down to less than a handful of people and I'm usually one of them.

Are you a scion?

Not according to your own testimony about how you arrived at your current state.

You are, much as I once was, somebody who started out poor, got an education in your chosen field and are making it in America.

So if that is the case why do you feel offended when I bitch about the scions who do not have you vita or you claim to a share of the American pie?

I CLEARLY choose the word SCION on purpose...and that purpose was what, do you suppose?

To eliminate from my rant people just like YOU.

Now, are you somebody who started out on third base and got hit home, or are you somebody who started out in the bush leagues and made the majors?

I don't know WHY you are offended.

Perhaps you tell me what you find offensive when I am clearly describing a whole 'nother species of winner of the current economy than you.

 

[sealybobo]

Here's the problem, people have forgotten how important and difficult these "unskilled" jobs are, though most of these wealthy couldn't wipe their own asses. However until the workers are ALL willing to remind them, it will never change.

They got us taking pay cuts so the company can survive. We are suckers. And when things go back to normal, will they give us raises?

Or will they give the CEO a $20 million bonus for successfully cutting wages.

I use to be in your shoes ... it's tough and unfair I know. But unless enough of you stand up it will never change. One possible way to prove it is a country wide strike for all labor jobs, about a week and they will be begging you to go back to work. Another is figure out how to go in business yourself, it's hard but well worth it. If the laborers left the companies and started their own (pooling the money together for a co-op, which are big business really) the companies would collapse and these desk jockies that underpay their employees would soon be broke, the balance of wealth would flip. The problem is that most are not willing to take the risk and that is the fault of the laborers.

I talked to people about a new Union and they all laughed at me. Know what it would cost you to join? Just $12 a year. That's it. Just $12 a year and you are in the union. And if we feel that corporate America is taking advantage of the middle class or poor, we strike. We don't all have to work for the same company. There may be only 2 people in my company that are in the union, but the company has to respect the union when we strike. They can't fire me for striking.

Of course the Democrats would have to pass a few laws to make this possible, because right now my company can fire me for any reason they want.

Not everyone can start their own business. And the GOP economy is ruining a lot of small business' too. Plus, good luck getting a loan to start a new business.

Back in the day, people could try to start new business and if they failed, there were safety nets for them. Today, there are no safety nets.

Republicans talk about owning your own business, but their policies created an environment that deters people from trying to do so. Same with home ownership. Didn't they say they wanted everyone to own a home? Isn't it fascinating how many people lost their home under GOP rule?

 

[Yukon]

Let me ask you this. Are white Conservative/GOP Americans responsible for ensuring single mothers receive an adequate amount of money to support the children they have if ABORTION is banned?

 

[DiamondDave]

Great theory. Now try running that theory up the flagpole for the technicians of banking and finance who are losing their jobs by the tens-of-thousands this month.

A year or two ago, their skills were highly paid. Now they're worth chacha.

Did they choose the wrong career, DD, or did society change so suddenly that they are merely the victims of a society which evolves faster than the people can change to satisfy it?



That's nice that you still had some options. I hope you keep having options.



Yeah, exactly.

Now, based on your above scenario, what mistake did that techical manager makes, exactly?

None at all.

So indtead of telling people that it's their faults, why not just admit that people living in a rapidly evolving society ---even those who have formal educations and enormous expereince -- can be victimized by those changes?

Why di you have SO MUCH DIFFICULTY admitting that there is NO REAL WAY for people to KNOW what their careers will be worth five or ten years into it?

It seems blantently obvious to me that with the rapidity of changes to our techologies, and our economy, too, that damned few of us have the resources to constantly be upgrading our skills like you imagine is so possible.

Whem for example, your skills are business managment, and you find yourself unemployed because the economy is on the skids, that you are not reducdants because your skills are outdated, you are unemployed because the economy is in the crapper.

You seriously don't get this?

And if you cannot get this, can you actually expect me to think you're intellectually my superior in ANY WAY?

Or can you expect me to say that you understand this society better than I do, given you apparent inability to get that not everyone can upgrade their skills because even if they could there are only so many billets for thosse skills?

I am mystified why some of you don't yet understand that many highly edcuated people, people with long track records of working successfully, are unemployed and cannot find work.

It seems like something even a computer jock or even an engineer might be able to understand if they gave it but a moments thought.

The mistake is the arrogance or ignorance of people who think that they are owed something is they stagnate and do not advance...

I could have stayed a master of dial-up networking... and screamed "boo hoo" when I was not in demand anymore and making the big bucks.... no.. as things change, you change... if you do not, too bad too sad... that is on YOU

Everyone CAN upgrade their skills, their training, their resume, their worth... to think otherwise is complete nonsense.. and unfortunately, too many liberals DO think this way... putting the boo hoo blame on everyone and anything else....

 

[DiamondDave]

Let me ask you this. Are white Conservative/GOP Americans responsible for ensuring single mothers receive an adequate amount of money to support the children they have if ABORTION is banned?

Since when did these women have their right to say "no" taken away? You choose to take the risk, you assume the consequences of your actions.

Nobody is responsible for you and your well being except for you

Do I support charitable giving?? Hell YES... but that is VOLUNTARY.... Involuntary wealth redistribution is bullshit... It is inherently against the freedoms we fought to ensure that we have

 

[AllieBaba]

Er...everyone CAN start their own business, if they are so inclined, Booboo. I have a welfare mom with 5 or 6 kids, one seriously disabled....she has a deli now.

If she can do it, believe me, anyone can.

 

[sealybobo]

Let me ask you this. Are white Conservative/GOP Americans responsible for ensuring single mothers receive an adequate amount of money to support the children they have if ABORTION is banned?

ABSOLUTELY! Your taxes will go up due to welfare if abortions are banned.