Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

[uhkilleez]

Genesis. He shall rule over you.

God's words but believe as you will from your delusional state.

Regards
DL

Most of genesis is human mumbo-jumbo.

The way it has been literalized and interpreted, I agree.

That is why we should stop using it to justify the inequality of women.

Regards
DL

I wasn't ever arguing with you.

 

[GreatestIam]

Most of genesis is human mumbo-jumbo.

The way it has been literalized and interpreted, I agree.

That is why we should stop using it to justify the inequality of women.

Regards
DL

I wasn't ever arguing with you.

I know.

I did not offer an argument.

Just a closing claim showing the reason why we should stop using/believing it.

Regards
DL

 

[Mr. H.]

Who was "correct" before the physical universe came to be?

 

[uhkilleez]

The way it has been literalized and interpreted, I agree.

That is why we should stop using it to justify the inequality of women.

Regards
DL

I wasn't ever arguing with you.

I know.

I did not offer an argument.

Just a closing claim showing the reason why we should stop using/believing it.

Regards
DL

------------------------

Not helpful to the women who have been clubbed into inequality with this myth by Christians forever.

Activate your sense of social conscience. If you have one.

Regards
DL

That inequality is the product of human mumbo-jumbo, not of God.

Genesis. He shall rule over you.

God's words but believe as you will from your delusional state.

Regards
DL

Forgive me, then, if this comment was not made to cause argument.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Once you put these ancient stories in to proper historical context, you realize that is simply doesn't matter.

Let the Jews bury the Jews and let the Christians bury their own. Time marches on.

If Momma's little self aware bastards have a Father, His name is Time.

 

[uhkilleez]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Once you put these ancient stories in to proper historical context, you realize that is simply doesn't matter.

Let the Jews bury the Jews and let the Christians bury their own. Time marches on.

If Momma's little self aware bastards have a Father, his name is Time.

Space and time are woven together, activated by motion. Without motion there is no sense of time; With too much motion, time crawls. The quicker you move, the slower time travels, the heavier you weigh. Just an interesting fact for you.

In a rocket traveling at the speed of light, time would nearly stop entirely. As far as it is perceived and how it effects your biological existence, that is.

In terms of your historical context, you are absolutely right. The details of the story are vastly meaningless. They are orgasms of the mind, come to fruition thousands of years ago. The truth to religion is hidden in parable and fable, the truth to God is hidden within us all.

 

[TheShinyOne]

Space and time are woven together... I like that. It's unfortunate that Genesis doesn't go into much detail about the talking spider. Oh sure, that devil the serpent, God's favorite angel of light, gets all the credit for showing wisdom to the humans, but where's the love for teaching the humans how to weave, how to make baskets, how to make architecture? Then again, the spider never tried to convince them to turn against God, either.

 

[uhkilleez]

Space and time are woven together... I like that. It's unfortunate that Genesis doesn't go into much detail about the talking spider. Oh sure, that devil the serpent, God's favorite angel of light, gets all the credit for showing wisdom to the humans, but where's the love for teaching the humans how to weave, how to make baskets, how to make architecture? Then again, the spider never tried to convince them to turn against God, either.

All of these things were imposed upon humanity by itself. All of our advancements in thought and technology are responsible only to ourselves, there are no supernatural beings to take credit for them. The story of genesis is more a apocryphal fable, meant to personify the difference between good and evil. In its finished product, such a story is too humanized to gather its true intent, but I feel that it is a story to show what happens to man should he defy the word within himself, the word of God, and carry out actions beneficial to only that man, to selfishness which is the root of all evil. It has nothing to do with the deities we have imagined, it is the balance of nature. As humans, we are given within ourselves an ability to empathize. Some of us hone these skills of empathy, while others ignore them... whether it be by choice or conditioning. Empathy is the only good there is in the world, only to be met by its counterpart which is apathy, a transcendent conflict by which we lead our lives. We have both good and evil within us, we have the capacity to care and be helpful; Also we have the capacity to distance ourselves from emotion and take as we want.

The only true way to go against God is to think of only yourself, and not of the others around you.

 

[GreatestIam]

I wasn't ever arguing with you.

I know.

I did not offer an argument.

Just a closing claim showing the reason why we should stop using/believing it.

Regards
DL

------------------------

That inequality is the product of human mumbo-jumbo, not of God.

Genesis. He shall rule over you.

God's words but believe as you will from your delusional state.

Regards
DL

Forgive me, then, if this comment was not made to cause argument.

If you wish to give an argument refuting the bible then I am here to read it.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Once you put these ancient stories in to proper historical context, you realize that is simply doesn't matter.

Let the Jews bury the Jews and let the Christians bury their own. Time marches on.

If Momma's little self aware bastards have a Father, His name is Time.

If the Christians buried the Christians and stopped using the bible against women and Gays I would be with you completely. Unfortunately they do not and if you do not fight them then you are part of those who discriminate and denigrate without just cause.

For evil to grow all you need do is nothing.

Whose version of Eden is more moral?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Space and time are woven together... I like that. It's unfortunate that Genesis doesn't go into much detail about the talking spider. Oh sure, that devil the serpent, God's favorite angel of light, gets all the credit for showing wisdom to the humans, but where's the love for teaching the humans how to weave, how to make baskets, how to make architecture? Then again, the spider never tried to convince them to turn against God, either.

Show anything of someone saying anything of turning against God in Eden please.

Any intelligent person would but there are none in Eden. Not even the God that would keep mankind stupid and in blissful ignorance.

Regards
DL

 

[TheShinyOne]

Space and time are woven together... I like that. It's unfortunate that Genesis doesn't go into much detail about the talking spider. Oh sure, that devil the serpent, God's favorite angel of light, gets all the credit for showing wisdom to the humans, but where's the love for teaching the humans how to weave, how to make baskets, how to make architecture? Then again, the spider never tried to convince them to turn against God, either.

Show anything of someone saying anything of turning against God in Eden please.

Any intelligent person would but there are none in Eden. Not even the God that would keep mankind stupid and in blissful ignorance.

Regards
DL

You have failed to compute the mean value of the infinitive "to turn against" as it appears in the provided context. You will find I have more to say on this later.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Who was "correct" before the physical universe came to be?

Everyone. Nothing was. Nothing is at complete harmony with itself. It takes something to rub something else the wrong way.

Without a Left there can be no Right. That's why a strategy of conversion fails.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Once you put these ancient stories in to proper historical context, you realize that is simply doesn't matter.

Let the Jews bury the Jews and let the Christians bury their own. Time marches on.

If Momma's little self aware bastards have a Father, his name is Time.

Space and time are woven together, activated by motion. Without motion there is no sense of time; With too much motion, time crawls. The quicker you move, the slower time travels, the heavier you weigh. Just an interesting fact for you.

In a rocket traveling at the speed of light, time would nearly stop entirely. As far as it is perceived and how it effects your biological existence, that is.

In terms of your historical context, you are absolutely right. The details of the story are vastly meaningless. They are orgasms of the mind, come to fruition thousands of years ago. The truth to religion is hidden in parable and fable, the truth to God is hidden within us all.

Think organically and spiritually, not necessarily physically.

Physically, Monkeys and the books they revere are naught but molded Stardust. It's the language, especially written language, that allows the past to talk to the present and the present to talk to the future, that makes Monkeys different from the monkeys that Time has molded them from.

Both personally, and in the grand scheme of things, Time is subjective until it ends. Understanding the personal end of time is why the Sentient 'feel' a need for, for lack of a better term, God.

That's why, if Momma's little semi-Sentient Monkeys have a Father in the heavens, His name is Time.

 

[GreatestIam]

Space and time are woven together... I like that. It's unfortunate that Genesis doesn't go into much detail about the talking spider. Oh sure, that devil the serpent, God's favorite angel of light, gets all the credit for showing wisdom to the humans, but where's the love for teaching the humans how to weave, how to make baskets, how to make architecture? Then again, the spider never tried to convince them to turn against God, either.

Show anything of someone saying anything of turning against God in Eden please.

Any intelligent person would but there are none in Eden. Not even the God that would keep mankind stupid and in blissful ignorance.

Regards
DL

You have failed to compute the mean value of the infinitive "to turn against" as it appears in the provided context. You will find I have more to say on this later.

Add all you want to the story. That is exactly what scriptures tell you to do. Not.

Regards
DL

 

[TheShinyOne]

Show anything of someone saying anything of turning against God in Eden please.

Any intelligent person would but there are none in Eden. Not even the God that would keep mankind stupid and in blissful ignorance.

Regards
DL

You have failed to compute the mean value of the infinitive "to turn against" as it appears in the provided context. You will find I have more to say on this later.

Add all you want to the story. That is exactly what scriptures tell you to do. Not.

Regards
DL

What is it you are searching for? You're asking people to say which right and which is wrong among Jews and Christians? Is it more or less accuracy? Is it the glass is half full and/or the glass is half empty? But then, to take all of that, what would be thousand page dissertation on religion, compress it into a tiny paragraph about how the spider is jealous of the snake, that's just out of the question.

 

[GreatestIam]

Which view is more intelligent and moral?

Regards
DL

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Neither. They're both completely wrong.

If everything G-d does is by His will or intent, then Eve's rebelling was as well. So punishing Eve for something G-d intended her to do doesn't make any sense. But He did punish her and Adam so we have to try and imagine why. But I'm not about to propose I understand G-d's will or His plans so this is something every person of faith needs to come up with for themselves.

 

[GreatestIam]

Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. 2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: FALL OF MAN

“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

Neither. They're both completely wrong.

If everything G-d does is by His will or intent, then Eve's rebelling was as well. So punishing Eve for something G-d intended her to do doesn't make any sense. But He did punish her and Adam so we have to try and imagine why. But I'm not about to propose I understand G-d's will or His plans so this is something every person of faith needs to come up with for themselves.

And they do and corrupt their morals as they justify what cannot morally be justified.

Like in the Job myth.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeOfzN8ZTAM]Christians are Morally Compromised - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[midcan5]

It's rather funny reading a thread about something no one can possibly know and is likely mythological explanation, for respondents to assume their interpretation is more valid than their interpretation. It reminds one of why explanatory theories on just about anything brings out the worst in people. When truth can never be found one can then believe that what they know is right and then another can believe what they know is right and.... You can fill in the rest. Knowledge is so hard a thing to pin down.