Why are morality and religion linked?

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth

New Guy, in case I havent told you, I just love your posts....on everything. I respect intelligence and responsibility and your posts reflect both.

Thanks!

I feel the same about you and your posts, and I am trying to not step on toes at the same time.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by Hobbit
I pulled it straight from the NIV Bible, and it's the same in nearly every other translation, with the only differences being archaic words. The meaning is still the same. Jesus was saying that the only way to God was through him and acceptance of him. Now, as far as I can tell, if you don't get to God, you don't get to Heaven, and if you don't get to Heaven, you get to Hell. Now, I don't know this as truth, seeing as how I am not God, but it's the conclusion I have drawn, given the evidence. As nice as it would be if there was some third place to go if you were a good person, but didn't accept Christ, I don't believe there is such a place. Now, to the second part of that, the acceptance of Jesus. In my mind, brand name, denomination, and specific doctrine do not matter in the big picture. If you accept Christ, you are a Christian. That's all it takes. Now, that's what I believe and I'm sticking to it.

what about buddhists? or hindu's? agnostics or wiccans? do they have heaven, hell, and/or a third place?

 

[KLSuddeth]

DK - Im getting to that, hon

Hold yer butt.

:cof:

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Hey Jim....what if I told you that I am Buddhist???

Then I would ask you to rub the little guys belly for me, I can use some good luck!

I'm just messing around, not trying to mess with anyone's religious beliefs. I respect those that choose to follow buddhism as much as catholics, protestants, jewish & even atheists. To each their own.

 

[KLSuddeth]

I was just messing with you Jim

Actually, later today, Im making a post that has to do with you.
Be on the lookout for it, friend!

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
I was just messing with you Jim

Actually, later today, Im making a post that has to do with you.
Be on the lookout for it, friend!

Uh oh, you aren't joining the fattie brigade, are you?

 

[KLSuddeth]

LMAO

noooo,.......not yet anyway :

 

[acludem]

I am a Buddhist and we believe the spirit is reincarnated after one body dies. There are differences in the schools of Buddhism about how and why this takes place. I can't speak for agnostics, Hindus or Wiccaans.

acludem

 

[KLSuddeth]

what about buddhists? or hindu's? agnostics or wiccans? do they have heaven, hell, and/or a third place?

DK:

Are you asking this for his/her opinion, or facetiously, or because you really want to know?

Just curious

BTW, Hobbit and whomever else, I AM still working on my reply - almost done.....Im having to do it between the homeschool lessons that I give my son.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I am asking for his opinion based on the fact that he only acknowledges heaven and hell as it pertains to whether or not you follow the teachings of christ. I'm interested to see what he thinks about those who follow another god.

 

[Hobbit]

I was not attempting to bring a perspective to other religions. I was simply refuting this statement.

"That, and Ive not seen anything in the bible that states if Im not ____________ (fill in the blank with your choice(s) of religion here pls) that I will go to 'hell'."

That's it. Nothing else. If you don't think the Bible is true, then it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

[KLSuddeth]

Ive written/answered this sort of sporadically - sorry. Its the best I can do whilst muti-tasking!

Morality is linked to religion because morality was founded in religion.

Not so. I could write page after page on this but I wont. Let me instead simply state that morality existed before religion, as did The God Source.

Most modern laws are based on ancient religious laws. I mean, when sworn in in a court of law, you have to place your hand on the Bible.

I believe that laws are based upon the understanding of the person that wrote the laws of the religious ‘laws’ at that time. However, how did religion come to be? Simple. Religion came to be from interpretation of the ancient laws. Interpretation is a precarious thing – as well as an individual thing. Why do you think that there are so many diverse opinions on EVERYTHING on this board alone? Interpretation. Not to tout Dr. Phil, but he says something that I LOVE….’There is no reality….only perception/interpretation’. (or something like that, anyway – im not sure that is the exact wording, but you get this jist.)

Actually, you DON’T have to place your hand on the bible. By simply stating that do to so conflicts with your personal and/or religious/spiritual beliefs legally relieves you of that. Instead of placing a hand upon the bible and stating “blah blah blah, so help me God”, the following (or a form of the following) can legally be substituted:

"You do solemnly state, under penalty of perjury, that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

The Puritans sought to pattern civil law after Biblical Law. Therefore, for the Puritans, all oaths were "test oaths." These oaths were the foundation of Christian Government.

The Bible says that only men of the Faith can take any oath genuinely. A true oath is one that is made in the Presence and in the Name of God. The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) says that swearing an oath is an act "of religious worship"and "the Name of God only is that by which men ought to swear."

This is why atheists were never allowed to testify in court: oaths were sacred, witnessing to the authority of God. How could an atheist take an oath? For an atheist, every man is his own god. Secular Humanism says "Man is the measure of all things." He never prays, "So help me, God." As a result, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story observed, "infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.

(I got the above info from this site and no, Im not an atheist)http://members.aol.com/TestOath/21atheists.htm

Now regarding that, to banish anyone from testifying etc in a court of law would be against our constitutional rights – however, it WAS permissible in the past……eg: the above 3 short paragraphs. This is but one small example of why laws, statutes, etc that were written and enforced years and years ago need to be revised. They simply are not relevant or even applicable anymore – but that is another topic for another thread at another time.

And as for some of the most immoral people being religious, there's a difference between claiming a religion and following that religion.

This is true. It just aggravates the hell out of me. So many people claim religion, yet everything that they do as well as the things that they do, belie that claim. I have respect for those that follow their religion even though I do not subscribe to the concept of religion myself for my own reasons. I respect a person who can walk their talk. Unfortunately, there is little of that going on these days. Oh well, that is again another topic for another thread at another time lol.

Jesus taught peace, pacifism, treating others the way you wanted to be treated, and turning the other cheek. The only time he got violent was at the desecration of a temple by profiteers, and then he didn't hurt anybody. That being the case, immoral, violent Christians do not follow the words of Christ.

I agree, and this is something that just irks the crap out of me. I hear from self-proclaimed Christians all the time about how ‘I am wrong – they are right and Im going to hell’. All because they ASSUME I am not a Christian. I AM a Christian….not by societal standards, but by the standards that COUNT. Those standards can be found rather simply. Look up the word ‘Christian’ in the American Heritage dictionary and this is what you will find:

Definition provided by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Other important copyright information here.

Christian:

Adjective
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
Noun
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
Etymology
Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chr*sti*nus, from Chr*stus, Christ ; see Christ.

Humor me by allowing me to address this further, please.

Definition #1:

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Ok, first lets define Christ. Again from the American Heritage Dictionary:

Christ:

Noun
1. The Messiah, as foretold by the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Etymology
Middle English Crist, from Old English Cr*st, from Latin Chr*stus, from Greek Khr*stos, from khr*stos,meaning:

anointed, verbal adj. of khr*ein, to anoint; see ghr*i- in Indo-European roots.

Now, if we are to refer to these definitions and etymologies (which I do) then that would tell us that a Christian is one who is Christ-like. I just don’t see a lot of that behavior in many (note: I SAID MANY, NOT ALL) of the people who are screaming that they are Christian and Im going to Hell. (Id like to insert a quote here that states and defines my feelings regarding this – this is not directed to any one person in particular: “Who you are is screaming at me so loudly that I cannot hear what youre saying”)

Christ gave love when he was invested in bodily form and nature (ie incarnate). He gave it freely and without judgment. The lack of judgment is something I just don’t see a lot of these days. Especially from those that are screaming Christian, yet not following the examples set and definitions given. In my opinion, that is simply stated a DAMN CRYING SHAME. Our world would be a much better place if people would just walk their talk. That’s my opinion anyway – actually, its more than my opinion…..it’s a simply fact. To those who want me to state a source for this fact, here ya go…..

Common Sense.

What about "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6?

The full quote is, ‘John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’

Before I get started on this, please HEAR THIS: I am NOT saying that the bible is not God’s word. So please, no one respond telling me that I am blaspheming the word of God. Simply stated, Im not.

I feel that the bible has been skewed. I think the principles are there, but that the words themselves have been skewed tremendously. What is one of the wealthiest institutions in the world? Organized Religion. No where – NO WHERE in the bible does it state that if I don’t go to a specific religion church. That I am damned to Hell - whatever hell is. (I have my own ideas on this…but yet again, another thread, another time, blah blah blah and so forth, etcetera. Ask yourself this question, why would God only intend for one religion to be “IT” and the rest are damned to hell or at the very least ‘wrong’? We have free will, my friends….FREE WILL. Religion in my opinion is simply another example of different interpretations of the bible. My source – me and common sense….as well as several passages of my dissertation (lol).

Lets look at a historical event – The Inquisition. What was/is it? The Inquisition was a permanent institution in the Catholic Church charged with the eradication of heresies. Unlike many other religions (e.g., Buddhism, Judaism), the Catholic Church has a hierarchical structure with a central bureaucracy. In the early years of the church, there were several competing sects that called themselves Christian. But after the Emperor Constantine I made Christianity THE state religion of the Roman Empire AND the local administrative structures were pulled together into one hierarchy centered in Rome, doctrinal arguments were settled by Church Councils, beginning with the Council of Nicea (Nicean Creed). Those whose beliefs or practices deviated sufficiently from the orthodoxy of the councils now became the objects of efforts to bring them into the fold. Resistance often led to persecution. The judge (inquisitor) could bring suit against anyone. The accused had to testify against themselves and were not even afforded the luxiry to have the right to face and question their accuser. It was acceptable to take testimony from criminals, persons of bad reputation, excommunicated people, and heretics. The accused did not have right to counsel, and blood relationship did not exempt one from the duty to testify against the accused. Sentences could not be appealed Sometimes the inquisitor interrogated entire populations within their jurisdiction.. The accused was given a summary of the charges and had to take an oath to tell the truth. Various means were used to get the cooperation of the accused. Although there was no tradition of torture in Christian canon law, this method came into use by the middle of the 13th century. The findings of the Inquisition were read before a large audience; the penitents abjured on their knees with one hand on a bible held by the inquisitor. Penalties went from visits to churches, pilgrimages, and wearing the cross of infamy to imprisonment (usually for life but the sentences were often commuted) and (if the accused would not abjure) death. Death was by burning at the stake, and was carried out by the secular authorities. In some serious cases when the accused had died before proceedings could be instituted, his or her remains could be exhumed and burned. Death or life imprisonment was always accompanied by the confiscation of all the accused's property.

This event was largely based upon interpretation of the Biblical written word as well as financial gain. Period.

I am NOT saying that religion is ‘bad’. So please dear reader, do not come back and slam me with a response regarding that. If you do, expect no response because I wont deem that as being worthy of one since I have very clearly explained myself with this paragraph. Thank you.

For the record, I'm not claiming in any way that only Christians can be moral, only that western moral values are founded in Judeo-Christian beliefs. I've known plenty of atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. who were very very moral.


Jesus was saying that the only way to God was through him and acceptance of him. Now, as far as I can tell, if you don't get to God, you don't get to Heaven, and if you don't get to Heaven, you get to Hell. Now, I don't know this as truth, seeing as how I am not God, but it's the conclusion I have drawn, given the evidence. As nice as it would be if there was some third place to go if you were a good person, but didn't accept Christ, I don't believe there is such a place. Now, to the second part of that, the acceptance of Jesus. In my mind, brand name, denomination, and specific doctrine do not matter in the big picture. If you accept Christ, you are a Christian. That's all it takes. Now, that's what I believe and I'm sticking to it.

I respect your conclusion. In actuality, I respect all conclusions. I may not agree with a certain viewpoint/opinion/conclusion, and I may even debate the hell out of it with the person. But I would certainly fight for thier right to believe it. I may share my beliefs with a person, but Im certainly not going to cram it down their throats or tell them that they are going to hell for not believing as I do. That is just ludicrous – its also VERY egomaniacal. Also, I can not find the Christian action in that….and believe me, Ive looked for it. Ive asked. I invite people of different religions who knock on my door to come inside and share with me their beliefs. (just ask DK – lol). I respectfully listen and then ask questions. Ive learned a lot that way – some of that knowledge, I agree with – some, I do not. But Im glad to have had the opportunity to learn all of it.

I personally believe that along with accepting Jesus the Christ that you must also accept and adopt what that means. How can a person be assured of their place in Heaven/The AfterLife, etc (whatever you want to call it) if they have said, ‘I accept Christ’ but then do everything to disclaim responsibility of what the word Christian truly means? Maybe Im dense, but I just cannot understand that.

Im not going to get into a discussion of heaven, hell, etc and/or the existence of said places/realities/perception/thought forms, etc because I don’t see the point of it. To do so would just be inviting an argument regarding a subject that humankind cannot seem to agree upon, has been fighting wars for, disagreeing upon and so forth for thousands of years.

I know that I have strayed from the subject at hand somewhat – I tend to do that. Sorry.

I feel that humanity as a whole needs to think about their personal responsibility as human beings, citizens, etc – to do so is most definitely a complicated realization at best, I know. Our early lives tend to be imbued with a rudimentary understanding of political, social, spiritual and individual information and responsibility. Then our later life becomes our creation of our interpretation of those teachings. Where does our true responsibilities lie? We have a responsibility to be informed politically, socially, spiritually, medically, and yes even emotionally. Why? If we shirk that responsibility, then simply stated, we are ignorantly uninformed by personal choice. If we choose to be uninformed, how can we effectively and with any validity at all, debate, discuss, or even learn the topic at hand intelligently, intellectually, responsibly, not to mention correctly? We cant. Granted, any information is a personal perception, and that’s ok – awareness is the key and is paramount in the equation of knowledge. It never ceases to amaze me how many uninformed judgments are cast regarding religion and/or spirituality/belief systems, and cast VEHEMENTLY. IMO, that is (simply stated) a very irresponsible act of ignorance.

Ive enjoyed this thread very much!

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Bully, you seem to have alot of thoughts regarding religion!
what's the scoop with that!

Just trying to stir up some shit.

But seriously, I find its permutations fascinating, especially with the polarizations and diversity we see here in the US.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Yes, Bully is a Buddhist. Do we have good luck if we rub Bully's belly?

Nah, you'll only get smacked...

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Just trying to stir up some shit.

But seriously, I find its permutations fascinating, especially with the polarizations and diversity we see here in the US.

ooh polarizations and diversity. Those are mighty big words.

 

[NewGuy]

KL, In regard to: ‘John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’


Have you thought about, or what do you think about that and other passages in reference to the relationship with Him being the way as opposed to a church or his teachings specifically?

 

[KLSuddeth]

I have many thoughts on this - give me a while to finish the homeschooling portion of the day, and I will happily post

 

[5stringJeff]

KL,

I didn't want to quote your entire post, but you make some good points. Most, if not all of us in the church, make the same points that you do about living out your faith. It is not always an easy thing to do, and it breaks my heart to see Christians act overly judgmental or otherwise contrary to the commands of Christ.
However, none of us, inside or outside the church, has ever attained the spiritual perfection that God desires for us. We all still have sins that we commit in our lives. As I have seen on a few bumper stickers: "Please be patient with me; God isn't finished with me yet!"
As far as the Bible being skewed... well, we just might have to debate that!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
I have many thoughts on this - give me a while to finish the homeschooling portion of the day, and I will happily post

You got it!

I have to check out a few things before I get home tonight and will most likely be on well after you are asleep. I will be looking forward to your post.

 

[KLSuddeth]

As far as the Bible being skewed... well, we just might have to debate that!

Hi GOP_Jeff

I should have been more clear and I apologize for that. What I meant was interpretation over the many years of the bible has been skewed.

But Im always up for a good debate! Or at least I am regarding subjects that I am interested in and/or subjects that I feel I have enough of a grasp on the subject matter to make a valid point. This is why I seldomly post in the political arena....I dont feel that I am knowledgable enough to make even a quasi-intelligent point or post. Thats one of the reasons that I got on the board in the first place....to learn.