Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

Couple of things I wanted to respond to here.

I tend to agree that, if there is a god that created the universe, is not affected by time as we are, etc.....we likely could not understand the behavior or motivations of such a being. That doesn't mean it would not have desires or wants, or not have human-like emotions. It means there's no real way for us to know or predict what such a being is like.

I find it strange that you call humans flawed, totally fucked up creatures, yet used an expectation of rational behavior as one of your reasons that religion cannot be based on human imaginings. Why couldn't such flawed, fucked up creatures go on believing in what amounts to a fairy tale, even if doing so is irrational?

Religion is not spiritual connection, how many times must I correct the other side on this? Man created religions, he did not create spiritual connection. Religions are all based on human imagination relating to the spiritual nature they connect with.

God doesn't have humanistic attributes because why would God need them? Desire and want is what humans have because we're not omnipotent and immortal. Any "desire" God might have could be immediately fulfilled by God. IF God wanted everyone on the planet to worship Him, you would have no choice in the matter... not worshiping God would be like not breathing air.

If G-d has no wants and desires, then why does he care what you do?

God doesn't "care" what you do, caring is a human emotion. God is a spiritual energy force, to put it in a way you can understand and relate. Now think about an energy force within the physical, like electricity... does it "care" what you do with it? You better be fucking careful with it, that's for sure. But does it "care" one way or the other? You can plug a lamp in the outlet and "tap into" the energy to gain benefit... same with God, you can maintain spiritual fidelity with God and gain benefit from it. You can receive guidance from God, inspiration, courage and strength. God doesn't care if you do this or not. Just as electricity doesn't care there are Amish people.

Religion may not be spiritual connection, but you've used religion as evidence the spiritual exists. You have said, and I'm paraphrasing, that religion must be based on a real spiritual connection because there's no way humanity would continue to hold such beliefs if they were based on nothing real. So again, if humans are such flawed, fucked up creatures, why can't we have made up the various religions of the world without them being based on a real spiritual connection?

Because as flawed and fucked up as we are, humans do learn and gain wisdom. For instance, leaches... For many-a-year, doctors believed illness was due to bad blood in the body, and leaches were prescribed to draw the bad blood out, to help the patient recover. But as science progressed, we learned this was a terrible idea, and we stopped the practice.

If spirituality were created to explain the unknown, as science came along and explained things, humans would have abandoned spirituality. They haven't. If spirituality were created to console fear, same deal... hey look, the lions are still eating our people at night, in spite of our spiritual worship, this shit ain't working! So none of these dreamed up rationalizations for why humans are intrinsically spiritual is supportable. If spiritual connection were superficial and insignificant, it would have died out a long time ago.

Yes... flawed and fucked up man has invented some flawed and fucked up religions, in their flawed and fucked up attempts to comprehend something out of their realm of comprehending. Religions collectively serve as evidence humans DO spiritually connect.

Why do you feel you are able to understand the nature of god, this being so far beyond human comprehension, while the vast majority of others do not?

I don't know... guess I am blessed.

Do you think god has intelligence? You've compared god to electricity on more than one occasion, but if god did anything like create the universe, that would imply intelligence. If there is an intelligence, what reason is there to assume there are no emotions, no desires, no needs? Could they not just be things we don't understand but desires and needs nonetheless?

I compare God to electricity in order to convey the concept of energy versus 'being'. I have actually stated that I don't know if "intelligence" is the appropriate word to apply to God, perhaps we don't have a word to define it? We use "intelligence" because that is the closest 'grunting noise' we can make to what God actually has. We're chimps trying to figure out something so far beyond us that we can't even imagine it appropriately.

When I say God "knows" ...again, that is a humanistic concept, to know... Electricity doesn't "know" things, so how does that work? Well again, we lack the vocabulary to define parameters for God, we can't even properly imagine God. In order to convey any kind of rational concept from one human to another, we are confined to our vocabulary and what we can relate to as humans.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Religion is not spiritual connection, how many times must I correct the other side on this? Man created religions, he did not create spiritual connection. Religions are all based on human imagination relating to the spiritual nature they connect with.

God doesn't have humanistic attributes because why would God need them? Desire and want is what humans have because we're not omnipotent and immortal. Any "desire" God might have could be immediately fulfilled by God. IF God wanted everyone on the planet to worship Him, you would have no choice in the matter... not worshiping God would be like not breathing air.

All anthropomorphic musings about something you claim has no human characteristics, while claiming you are trying to describe an entity beyond understanding yet claim to understand it.

God doesn't "care" what you do, caring is a human emotion. God is a spiritual energy force, to put it in a way you can understand and relate. Now think about an energy force within the physical, like electricity... does it "care" what you do with it? You better be fucking careful with it, that's for sure. But does it "care" one way or the other? You can plug a lamp in the outlet and "tap into" the energy to gain benefit... same with God, you can maintain spiritual fidelity with God and gain benefit from it. You can receive guidance from God, inspiration, courage and strength. God doesn't care if you do this or not. Just as electricity doesn't care there are Amish people.

What courage or strength can be gained from an entity you claim is beyond your understanding? For all you know this force is malevolent and intends great suffering for you and to have you perceived as a gaseous blowhard. Possible, right? You have no real understanding of this force. You apply human language to describe it, but admit these words are simply analogous placeholders for what is beyond your comprehension.

Religion may not be spiritual connection, but you've used religion as evidence the spiritual exists. You have said, and I'm paraphrasing, that religion must be based on a real spiritual connection because there's no way humanity would continue to hold such beliefs if they were based on nothing real. So again, if humans are such flawed, fucked up creatures, why can't we have made up the various religions of the world without them being based on a real spiritual connection?

Because as flawed and fucked up as we are, humans do learn and gain wisdom. For instance, leaches... For many-a-year, doctors believed illness was due to bad blood in the body, and leaches were prescribed to draw the bad blood out, to help the patient recover. But as science progressed, we learned this was a terrible idea, and we stopped the practice.

If spirituality were created to explain the unknown, as science came along and explained things, humans would have abandoned spirituality. They haven't. If spirituality were created to console fear, same deal... hey look, the lions are still eating our people at night, in spite of our spiritual worship, this shit ain't working! So none of these dreamed up rationalizations for why humans are intrinsically spiritual is supportable. If spiritual connection were superficial and insignificant, it would have died out a long time ago.

Yes... flawed and fucked up man has invented some flawed and fucked up religions, in their flawed and fucked up attempts to comprehend something out of their realm of comprehending. Religions collectively serve as evidence humans DO spiritually connect.

spirituality is a reaction to the unknown and to the fear of mortality, and it never goes away because the unknown NEVER goes away and we all have a 100% mortality rate, and that never changes. We pray, not to stop the lions from eating us, but because we know they will.

Why do you feel you are able to understand the nature of god, this being so far beyond human comprehension, while the vast majority of others do not?

I don't know... guess I am blessed.

Do you think god has intelligence? You've compared god to electricity on more than one occasion, but if god did anything like create the universe, that would imply intelligence. If there is an intelligence, what reason is there to assume there are no emotions, no desires, no needs? Could they not just be things we don't understand but desires and needs nonetheless?

I compare God to electricity in order to convey the concept of energy versus 'being'. I have actually stated that I don't know if "intelligence" is the appropriate word to apply to God, perhaps we don't have a word to define it? We use "intelligence" because that is the closest 'grunting noise' we can make to what God actually has. We're chimps trying to figure out something so far beyond us that we can't even imagine it appropriately.

When I say God "knows" ...again, that is a humanistic concept, to know... Electricity doesn't "know" things, so how does that work? Well again, we lack the vocabulary to define parameters for God, we can't even properly imagine God. In order to convey any kind of rational concept from one human to another, we are confined to our vocabulary and what we can relate to as humans.

You spend great deals of bandwidth describing god and spiritual nature, all the while claiming that this force is something "...we can't even properly imagine", while stating you you just happen to be blessed to understand it all.
All fairly comical.

 

[Boss]

All anthropomorphic musings about something you claim has no human characteristics, while claiming you are trying to describe an entity beyond understanding yet claim to understand it.

If you walked outside one night and looked up to the sky to see the northern lights, having no understanding of science, would you be able to adequately describe what you saw? Would your description likely be anywhere remotely close to the scientific explanation for the phenomenon, or is it more likely you'd describe it using terms and phrases you could relate to? We can certainly experience things we don't understand and we can certainly describe those things in our own way, even without fully understanding them.

What courage or strength can be gained from an entity you claim is beyond your understanding? For all you know this force is malevolent and intends great suffering for you and to have you perceived as a gaseous blowhard. Possible, right? You have no real understanding of this force. You apply human language to describe it, but admit these words are simply analogous placeholders for what is beyond your comprehension.

I think you are jumping context a bit here. I never said God was totally beyond understanding. If that were the case, we wouldn't know of God. We struggle trying to understand something we can't comprehend. In our attempts to relate what we experience from one human to another, we are confined to words and definitions we've established as humans. If a monkey plays with a computer and makes it do something, he jumps up and down clapping his hands and squealing in excitement. He can go back and perhaps share the experience with his monkey friends, but he probably won't be telling them about CPUs and hard drives because he lacks our vocabulary and understanding. Far from being a computer tech, the monkey did have an experience and understood something in his own monkey way.

As for God being malevolent, I don't think this is possible. Mankind has been gaining courage and strength from the spiritual since we began to walk upright, according to archeology. This is largely why the attribute of human spirituality is so persistent in our history.

spirituality is a reaction to the unknown and to the fear of mortality, and it never goes away because the unknown NEVER goes away and we all have a 100% mortality rate, and that never changes. We pray, not to stop the lions from eating us, but because we know they will.

Again, you spew nonsense you've read on some Atheists blog. To scientifically state that humans "invented" spirituality, you need to find the point in human history that happened. You can't, because from the very oldest civilizations we are aware of, humans already had spirituality. What you are doing is speculating from the point of disbelief. God can't be real so humans must have invented spirituality.

You don't seem to understand how you just refuted your own argument here... if the unknown never goes away, then what was the point of creating something imaginary to explain it, which doesn't actually explain anything? Seems a bit ridiculous to me. And why the hell would 88% of the species still believe in something spiritual?

Mortality is also not a very sound rationalization. No other species we know of has even understood mortality, much less had a fear of it that couldn't be dealt with. Man only comprehends mortality because he is aware of spiritual immortality. So you have your cart ahead of your horse here. It is through our spiritual connection to the immortal that we developed fears regarding our own mortality.

But somehow... some way... we're supposed to accept that humans, for 100k years or more, have believed in some false spiritual connection which (if false) can provide no tangible benefits, all because it doesn't explain the unknown or rectify what we fear? This doesn't even make rational sense.

 

[Montrovant]

Religion is not spiritual connection, how many times must I correct the other side on this? Man created religions, he did not create spiritual connection. Religions are all based on human imagination relating to the spiritual nature they connect with.

God doesn't have humanistic attributes because why would God need them? Desire and want is what humans have because we're not omnipotent and immortal. Any "desire" God might have could be immediately fulfilled by God. IF God wanted everyone on the planet to worship Him, you would have no choice in the matter... not worshiping God would be like not breathing air.



God doesn't "care" what you do, caring is a human emotion. God is a spiritual energy force, to put it in a way you can understand and relate. Now think about an energy force within the physical, like electricity... does it "care" what you do with it? You better be fucking careful with it, that's for sure. But does it "care" one way or the other? You can plug a lamp in the outlet and "tap into" the energy to gain benefit... same with God, you can maintain spiritual fidelity with God and gain benefit from it. You can receive guidance from God, inspiration, courage and strength. God doesn't care if you do this or not. Just as electricity doesn't care there are Amish people.

Religion may not be spiritual connection, but you've used religion as evidence the spiritual exists. You have said, and I'm paraphrasing, that religion must be based on a real spiritual connection because there's no way humanity would continue to hold such beliefs if they were based on nothing real. So again, if humans are such flawed, fucked up creatures, why can't we have made up the various religions of the world without them being based on a real spiritual connection?

Because as flawed and fucked up as we are, humans do learn and gain wisdom. For instance, leaches... For many-a-year, doctors believed illness was due to bad blood in the body, and leaches were prescribed to draw the bad blood out, to help the patient recover. But as science progressed, we learned this was a terrible idea, and we stopped the practice.

If spirituality were created to explain the unknown, as science came along and explained things, humans would have abandoned spirituality. They haven't. If spirituality were created to console fear, same deal... hey look, the lions are still eating our people at night, in spite of our spiritual worship, this shit ain't working! So none of these dreamed up rationalizations for why humans are intrinsically spiritual is supportable. If spiritual connection were superficial and insignificant, it would have died out a long time ago.

Yes... flawed and fucked up man has invented some flawed and fucked up religions, in their flawed and fucked up attempts to comprehend something out of their realm of comprehending. Religions collectively serve as evidence humans DO spiritually connect.

Why do you feel you are able to understand the nature of god, this being so far beyond human comprehension, while the vast majority of others do not?

I don't know... guess I am blessed.

Do you think god has intelligence? You've compared god to electricity on more than one occasion, but if god did anything like create the universe, that would imply intelligence. If there is an intelligence, what reason is there to assume there are no emotions, no desires, no needs? Could they not just be things we don't understand but desires and needs nonetheless?

I compare God to electricity in order to convey the concept of energy versus 'being'. I have actually stated that I don't know if "intelligence" is the appropriate word to apply to God, perhaps we don't have a word to define it? We use "intelligence" because that is the closest 'grunting noise' we can make to what God actually has. We're chimps trying to figure out something so far beyond us that we can't even imagine it appropriately.

When I say God "knows" ...again, that is a humanistic concept, to know... Electricity doesn't "know" things, so how does that work? Well again, we lack the vocabulary to define parameters for God, we can't even properly imagine God. In order to convey any kind of rational concept from one human to another, we are confined to our vocabulary and what we can relate to as humans.

Humanity is neither without fear nor without ignorance. So how is it you can claim that religion, if it wasn't based on a real spiritual connection, would have gone away by now because humanity has explained things and allayed fear? We still have innumerable fears and plenty is still unknown, and in fact some fears revolve around the unknown! Death, by itself, has been and likely will remain enough of a fear and (potentially) unknown to cause religious belief.

You really do seem to know a lot about god when you say god is, in many ways, unknowable.

 

[Montrovant]

All anthropomorphic musings about something you claim has no human characteristics, while claiming you are trying to describe an entity beyond understanding yet claim to understand it.

If you walked outside one night and looked up to the sky to see the northern lights, having no understanding of science, would you be able to adequately describe what you saw? Would your description likely be anywhere remotely close to the scientific explanation for the phenomenon, or is it more likely you'd describe it using terms and phrases you could relate to? We can certainly experience things we don't understand and we can certainly describe those things in our own way, even without fully understanding them.

What courage or strength can be gained from an entity you claim is beyond your understanding? For all you know this force is malevolent and intends great suffering for you and to have you perceived as a gaseous blowhard. Possible, right? You have no real understanding of this force. You apply human language to describe it, but admit these words are simply analogous placeholders for what is beyond your comprehension.

I think you are jumping context a bit here. I never said God was totally beyond understanding. If that were the case, we wouldn't know of God. We struggle trying to understand something we can't comprehend. In our attempts to relate what we experience from one human to another, we are confined to words and definitions we've established as humans. If a monkey plays with a computer and makes it do something, he jumps up and down clapping his hands and squealing in excitement. He can go back and perhaps share the experience with his monkey friends, but he probably won't be telling them about CPUs and hard drives because he lacks our vocabulary and understanding. Far from being a computer tech, the monkey did have an experience and understood something in his own monkey way.

As for God being malevolent, I don't think this is possible. Mankind has been gaining courage and strength from the spiritual since we began to walk upright, according to archeology. This is largely why the attribute of human spirituality is so persistent in our history.

spirituality is a reaction to the unknown and to the fear of mortality, and it never goes away because the unknown NEVER goes away and we all have a 100% mortality rate, and that never changes. We pray, not to stop the lions from eating us, but because we know they will.

Again, you spew nonsense you've read on some Atheists blog. To scientifically state that humans "invented" spirituality, you need to find the point in human history that happened. You can't, because from the very oldest civilizations we are aware of, humans already had spirituality. What you are doing is speculating from the point of disbelief. God can't be real so humans must have invented spirituality.

You don't seem to understand how you just refuted your own argument here... if the unknown never goes away, then what was the point of creating something imaginary to explain it, which doesn't actually explain anything? Seems a bit ridiculous to me. And why the hell would 88% of the species still believe in something spiritual?

Mortality is also not a very sound rationalization. No other species we know of has even understood mortality, much less had a fear of it that couldn't be dealt with. Man only comprehends mortality because he is aware of spiritual immortality. So you have your cart ahead of your horse here. It is through our spiritual connection to the immortal that we developed fears regarding our own mortality.

But somehow... some way... we're supposed to accept that humans, for 100k years or more, have believed in some false spiritual connection which (if false) can provide no tangible benefits, all because it doesn't explain the unknown or rectify what we fear? This doesn't even make rational sense.

A quick comment : The point of creating something to explain the unknown, even if the explanation is as vague as 'god did it', is to give a person a sense they are not ignorant. This is particularly helpful when the unknown is tied to fear. So when a person contemplates death, when they wonder if it is the end of everything or if they might continue on after death, religious belief can both provide an answer and comfort fear.

This is not saying that religion must all be based on imagination, rather it is countering your argument that it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case.

 

[Boss]

Humanity is neither without fear nor without ignorance. So how is it you can claim that religion, if it wasn't based on a real spiritual connection, would have gone away by now because humanity has explained things and allayed fear? We still have innumerable fears and plenty is still unknown, and in fact some fears revolve around the unknown! Death, by itself, has been and likely will remain enough of a fear and (potentially) unknown to cause religious belief.

You really do seem to know a lot about god when you say god is, in many ways, unknowable.

First of all, I have never said that God is unknowable. I said we have a difficulty comprehending God. Religions HAVE come and gone, through the ages there have been all sorts of religious beliefs. Many no longer exist, perhaps science dispelled their validity? This is why it's so important to distinguish between religion and human spirituality, they are two completely different things. Religion IS invented by man, it is our way of trying to comprehend spiritual connection. The connection must be real, we keep inventing new incarnations called "religions" to try and comprehend this connection we are experiencing.

Now let's talk about death... do you believe a lion or bear contemplates what happens to him after he dies? We don't see indication that other animals adopt spiritually moral behaviors over their animalistic instincts, so we have to assume they don't worry much about an afterlife. Humans do this because we are intrinsically aware of something greater than self, beyond the physical, beyond mortality.

All of the perceived rationalizations atheists come up with to explain why humans supposedly created spirituality, fail the test of observable science in nature. Some fail so obviously I am astonished they still present them with objective reasoning. We invented something to console our fears but it's not real and doesn't protect us from what we fear? We invented it to console this nagging fear of our own mortality that nothing else seems to have a problem with, and our invention doesn't change a thing regarding how mortal we are?

A quick comment : The point of creating something to explain the unknown, even if the explanation is as vague as 'god did it', is to give a person a sense they are not ignorant. This is particularly helpful when the unknown is tied to fear. So when a person contemplates death, when they wonder if it is the end of everything or if they might continue on after death, religious belief can both provide an answer and comfort fear.

This is not saying that religion must all be based on imagination, rather it is countering your argument that it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case.

Humans don't seem to have a problem sensing they are not ignorant. Until dolphins and apes start sending their species into space, I think an argument can be made that humans are anything BUT ignorant. Fear of the unknown... what purpose does a fake and imaginary notion serve here? No answer is provided, we still have fear and we still have the unknown. Belief in God doesn't change that dynamic. It also doesn't provide answers to anything... "God did it" applies to everything, regardless of whether science can explain how or not.

Now, one could argue that the opposite of fear is courage, and the greatest way to overcome the unknown is through inspiration. This is the key to why humans have advanced so greatly over all other species. Our spiritual connection enables us to have courage and inspiration. Everything we've done as a species is because we are motivated by our spiritual connection which gives us courage and inspiration to strive for greatness.

If you believe in no God, and you think humans simply evolved into being from other creatures, then you must have some explanation for where we gained this attribute. We don't see other animals inventing fake things to inspire them or give them courage. Where did this come from? It's clear to me that we have the capacity to connect with something greater than self, outside the physical, which provides this driving inspiration and human spirit. You might think, well... we're "more evolved" but that doesn't make sense because we know that homo sapiens are relatively new to the animal kingdom. Things were evolving way before humans came on the scene, so why haven't any of them developed spirituality?

Here's the bottom line: For whatever reason, humans are given the ability to connect spiritually. It is through that connection we have become everything we are, and why we are so much different than everything else. Science cannot explain this, and all the rationalizing in the world of Atheists can't explain it. There is no definable point of origin for human spirituality, it has existed as long as humans have. Religions? Sure! We can pinpoint when just about every religion was created, but these are man-made creations in an attempt to comprehend his spiritual connection which has always existed.

 

[Montrovant]

Humanity is neither without fear nor without ignorance. So how is it you can claim that religion, if it wasn't based on a real spiritual connection, would have gone away by now because humanity has explained things and allayed fear? We still have innumerable fears and plenty is still unknown, and in fact some fears revolve around the unknown! Death, by itself, has been and likely will remain enough of a fear and (potentially) unknown to cause religious belief.

You really do seem to know a lot about god when you say god is, in many ways, unknowable.

First of all, I have never said that God is unknowable. I said we have a difficulty comprehending God. Religions HAVE come and gone, through the ages there have been all sorts of religious beliefs. Many no longer exist, perhaps science dispelled their validity? This is why it's so important to distinguish between religion and human spirituality, they are two completely different things. Religion IS invented by man, it is our way of trying to comprehend spiritual connection. The connection must be real, we keep inventing new incarnations called "religions" to try and comprehend this connection we are experiencing.

Now let's talk about death... do you believe a lion or bear contemplates what happens to him after he dies? We don't see indication that other animals adopt spiritually moral behaviors over their animalistic instincts, so we have to assume they don't worry much about an afterlife. Humans do this because we are intrinsically aware of something greater than self, beyond the physical, beyond mortality.

All of the perceived rationalizations atheists come up with to explain why humans supposedly created spirituality, fail the test of observable science in nature. Some fail so obviously I am astonished they still present them with objective reasoning. We invented something to console our fears but it's not real and doesn't protect us from what we fear? We invented it to console this nagging fear of our own mortality that nothing else seems to have a problem with, and our invention doesn't change a thing regarding how mortal we are?

A quick comment : The point of creating something to explain the unknown, even if the explanation is as vague as 'god did it', is to give a person a sense they are not ignorant. This is particularly helpful when the unknown is tied to fear. So when a person contemplates death, when they wonder if it is the end of everything or if they might continue on after death, religious belief can both provide an answer and comfort fear.

This is not saying that religion must all be based on imagination, rather it is countering your argument that it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case.

Humans don't seem to have a problem sensing they are not ignorant. Until dolphins and apes start sending their species into space, I think an argument can be made that humans are anything BUT ignorant. Fear of the unknown... what purpose does a fake and imaginary notion serve here? No answer is provided, we still have fear and we still have the unknown. Belief in God doesn't change that dynamic. It also doesn't provide answers to anything... "God did it" applies to everything, regardless of whether science can explain how or not.

Now, one could argue that the opposite of fear is courage, and the greatest way to overcome the unknown is through inspiration. This is the key to why humans have advanced so greatly over all other species. Our spiritual connection enables us to have courage and inspiration. Everything we've done as a species is because we are motivated by our spiritual connection which gives us courage and inspiration to strive for greatness.

If you believe in no God, and you think humans simply evolved into being from other creatures, then you must have some explanation for where we gained this attribute. We don't see other animals inventing fake things to inspire them or give them courage. Where did this come from? It's clear to me that we have the capacity to connect with something greater than self, outside the physical, which provides this driving inspiration and human spirit. You might think, well... we're "more evolved" but that doesn't make sense because we know that homo sapiens are relatively new to the animal kingdom. Things were evolving way before humans came on the scene, so why haven't any of them developed spirituality?

Here's the bottom line: For whatever reason, humans are given the ability to connect spiritually. It is through that connection we have become everything we are, and why we are so much different than everything else. Science cannot explain this, and all the rationalizing in the world of Atheists can't explain it. There is no definable point of origin for human spirituality, it has existed as long as humans have. Religions? Sure! We can pinpoint when just about every religion was created, but these are man-made creations in an attempt to comprehend his spiritual connection which has always existed.

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

The greatest way to overcome the unknown is to make it known.

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

 

[HUGGY]

Humanity is neither without fear nor without ignorance. So how is it you can claim that religion, if it wasn't based on a real spiritual connection, would have gone away by now because humanity has explained things and allayed fear? We still have innumerable fears and plenty is still unknown, and in fact some fears revolve around the unknown! Death, by itself, has been and likely will remain enough of a fear and (potentially) unknown to cause religious belief.

You really do seem to know a lot about god when you say god is, in many ways, unknowable.

First of all, I have never said that God is unknowable. I said we have a difficulty comprehending God. Religions HAVE come and gone, through the ages there have been all sorts of religious beliefs. Many no longer exist, perhaps science dispelled their validity? This is why it's so important to distinguish between religion and human spirituality, they are two completely different things. Religion IS invented by man, it is our way of trying to comprehend spiritual connection. The connection must be real, we keep inventing new incarnations called "religions" to try and comprehend this connection we are experiencing.

Now let's talk about death... do you believe a lion or bear contemplates what happens to him after he dies? We don't see indication that other animals adopt spiritually moral behaviors over their animalistic instincts, so we have to assume they don't worry much about an afterlife. Humans do this because we are intrinsically aware of something greater than self, beyond the physical, beyond mortality.

All of the perceived rationalizations atheists come up with to explain why humans supposedly created spirituality, fail the test of observable science in nature. Some fail so obviously I am astonished they still present them with objective reasoning. We invented something to console our fears but it's not real and doesn't protect us from what we fear? We invented it to console this nagging fear of our own mortality that nothing else seems to have a problem with, and our invention doesn't change a thing regarding how mortal we are?

A quick comment : The point of creating something to explain the unknown, even if the explanation is as vague as 'god did it', is to give a person a sense they are not ignorant. This is particularly helpful when the unknown is tied to fear. So when a person contemplates death, when they wonder if it is the end of everything or if they might continue on after death, religious belief can both provide an answer and comfort fear.

This is not saying that religion must all be based on imagination, rather it is countering your argument that it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case.

Humans don't seem to have a problem sensing they are not ignorant. Until dolphins and apes start sending their species into space, I think an argument can be made that humans are anything BUT ignorant. Fear of the unknown... what purpose does a fake and imaginary notion serve here? No answer is provided, we still have fear and we still have the unknown. Belief in God doesn't change that dynamic. It also doesn't provide answers to anything... "God did it" applies to everything, regardless of whether science can explain how or not.

Now, one could argue that the opposite of fear is courage, and the greatest way to overcome the unknown is through inspiration. This is the key to why humans have advanced so greatly over all other species. Our spiritual connection enables us to have courage and inspiration. Everything we've done as a species is because we are motivated by our spiritual connection which gives us courage and inspiration to strive for greatness.

If you believe in no God, and you think humans simply evolved into being from other creatures, then you must have some explanation for where we gained this attribute. We don't see other animals inventing fake things to inspire them or give them courage. Where did this come from? It's clear to me that we have the capacity to connect with something greater than self, outside the physical, which provides this driving inspiration and human spirit. You might think, well... we're "more evolved" but that doesn't make sense because we know that homo sapiens are relatively new to the animal kingdom. Things were evolving way before humans came on the scene, so why haven't any of them developed spirituality?

Here's the bottom line: For whatever reason, humans are given the ability to connect spiritually. It is through that connection we have become everything we are, and why we are so much different than everything else. Science cannot explain this, and all the rationalizing in the world of Atheists can't explain it. There is no definable point of origin for human spirituality, it has existed as long as humans have. Religions? Sure! We can pinpoint when just about every religion was created, but these are man-made creations in an attempt to comprehend his spiritual connection which has always existed.

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

The greatest way to overcome the unknown is to make it known.

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

Ya....what he said.

Furthermone science doesn't set out to dissprove god. Science works on problems that benefit humanity or problems that hurt humanity.

Dissproving god has no clear benefit other than stopping people from wasting time and solving certain medical advances.

We won't get the government to chip in on a dissproving god research program for obvious reasons.

That means only a private company would even bother and there would need to be a cost benefit. Of course the uproar would be deafening and the company would be boycotted and probably be forced out of business just like Donald Sterling.

 

[GISMYS]

So you=have a wicked heart, and dark and evil deeds. YOUR life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you???
=That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you???

 

[Steven_R]

Menelaus spoke first. "Why," said he, "my dear brother, are you thus arming? Are you going to send any of our comrades to exploit the Trojans? I greatly fear that no one will do you this service, and spy upon the enemy alone in the dead of night. It will be a deed of great daring."
-Homer, The Iliad, Book X

 

[HUGGY]

Boss has god on speed dial .... strangely enough God has Jizzmos number blocked..

 

[Hollie]

First of all, I have never said that God is unknowable. I said we have a difficulty comprehending God. Religions HAVE come and gone, through the ages there have been all sorts of religious beliefs. Many no longer exist, perhaps science dispelled their validity? This is why it's so important to distinguish between religion and human spirituality, they are two completely different things. Religion IS invented by man, it is our way of trying to comprehend spiritual connection. The connection must be real, we keep inventing new incarnations called "religions" to try and comprehend this connection we are experiencing.

Now let's talk about death... do you believe a lion or bear contemplates what happens to him after he dies? We don't see indication that other animals adopt spiritually moral behaviors over their animalistic instincts, so we have to assume they don't worry much about an afterlife. Humans do this because we are intrinsically aware of something greater than self, beyond the physical, beyond mortality.

All of the perceived rationalizations atheists come up with to explain why humans supposedly created spirituality, fail the test of observable science in nature. Some fail so obviously I am astonished they still present them with objective reasoning. We invented something to console our fears but it's not real and doesn't protect us from what we fear? We invented it to console this nagging fear of our own mortality that nothing else seems to have a problem with, and our invention doesn't change a thing regarding how mortal we are?



Humans don't seem to have a problem sensing they are not ignorant. Until dolphins and apes start sending their species into space, I think an argument can be made that humans are anything BUT ignorant. Fear of the unknown... what purpose does a fake and imaginary notion serve here? No answer is provided, we still have fear and we still have the unknown. Belief in God doesn't change that dynamic. It also doesn't provide answers to anything... "God did it" applies to everything, regardless of whether science can explain how or not.

Now, one could argue that the opposite of fear is courage, and the greatest way to overcome the unknown is through inspiration. This is the key to why humans have advanced so greatly over all other species. Our spiritual connection enables us to have courage and inspiration. Everything we've done as a species is because we are motivated by our spiritual connection which gives us courage and inspiration to strive for greatness.

If you believe in no God, and you think humans simply evolved into being from other creatures, then you must have some explanation for where we gained this attribute. We don't see other animals inventing fake things to inspire them or give them courage. Where did this come from? It's clear to me that we have the capacity to connect with something greater than self, outside the physical, which provides this driving inspiration and human spirit. You might think, well... we're "more evolved" but that doesn't make sense because we know that homo sapiens are relatively new to the animal kingdom. Things were evolving way before humans came on the scene, so why haven't any of them developed spirituality?

Here's the bottom line: For whatever reason, humans are given the ability to connect spiritually. It is through that connection we have become everything we are, and why we are so much different than everything else. Science cannot explain this, and all the rationalizing in the world of Atheists can't explain it. There is no definable point of origin for human spirituality, it has existed as long as humans have. Religions? Sure! We can pinpoint when just about every religion was created, but these are man-made creations in an attempt to comprehend his spiritual connection which has always existed.

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

The greatest way to overcome the unknown is to make it known.

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

Ya....what he said.

Furthermone science doesn't set out to dissprove god. Science works on problems that benefit humanity or problems that hurt humanity.

Dissproving god has no clear benefit other than stopping people from wasting time and solving certain medical advances.

We won't get the government to chip in on a dissproving god research program for obvious reasons.

That means only a private company would even bother and there would need to be a cost benefit. Of course the uproar would be deafening and the company would be boycotted and probably be forced out of business just like Donald Sterling.

Eyup. What they said.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods. There are simply too many of them and science has mechanism to examine the supernatural. And very clearly, why is anyone expected to disprove something that religionists have never made a rational argument for? That's ridiculous.

 

[GISMYS]

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

The greatest way to overcome the unknown is to make it known.

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

Ya....what he said.

Furthermone science doesn't set out to dissprove god. Science works on problems that benefit humanity or problems that hurt humanity.

Dissproving god has no clear benefit other than stopping people from wasting time and solving certain medical advances.

We won't get the government to chip in on a dissproving god research program for obvious reasons.

That means only a private company would even bother and there would need to be a cost benefit. Of course the uproar would be deafening and the company would be boycotted and probably be forced out of business just like Donald Sterling.

Eyup. What they said.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods. There are simply too many of them and science has mechanism to examine the supernatural. And very clearly, why is anyone expected to disprove something that religionists have never made a rational argument for? That's ridiculous.

I WILL GIVE YOU SOME HELP!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD AND ALL others are demon inspired false so called gods!!!!

 

[Hollie]

Ya....what he said.

Furthermone science doesn't set out to dissprove god. Science works on problems that benefit humanity or problems that hurt humanity.

Dissproving god has no clear benefit other than stopping people from wasting time and solving certain medical advances.

We won't get the government to chip in on a dissproving god research program for obvious reasons.

That means only a private company would even bother and there would need to be a cost benefit. Of course the uproar would be deafening and the company would be boycotted and probably be forced out of business just like Donald Sterling.

Eyup. What they said.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods. There are simply too many of them and science has mechanism to examine the supernatural. And very clearly, why is anyone expected to disprove something that religionists have never made a rational argument for? That's ridiculous.

I WILL GIVE YOU SOME HELP!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD AND ALL others are demon inspired false so called gods!!!!

Whatever you say, dear.

 

[GISMYS]

Eyup. What they said.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods. There are simply too many of them and science has mechanism to examine the supernatural. And very clearly, why is anyone expected to disprove something that religionists have never made a rational argument for? That's ridiculous.

I WILL GIVE YOU SOME HELP!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD AND ALL others are demon inspired false so called gods!!!!

Whatever you say, dear.

GET off your lasy fat &%$ and seek the real truth,there is no good reason to remain so ignorant all your life. Life and time are very short now!!!

 

[Boss]

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

Oh, I see how easily it is explained all the time by Atheists, trouble is, just because you easily explain it doesn't make your explanation correct. "...the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do..." What kind of thinking? The kind that creates fake placebos for fear and the unknown and continues to worship them for all their existence in spite of there being absolutely nothing to it? Doesn't sound like that takes any kind of "special thinking." Or maybe you mean the kind of thinking that considers our human spirit may live on after our physical life is over? I agree with you on this, we do seem to have that kind of thinking, but I believe it is because we comprehend a spiritual connection to something greater than self.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

Well I am truly sorry you want to play the word parsing game here again, I am not interested in that kind of discussion at this time. Courage doesn't require fear, and if you honestly think that, you are a moron.

The greatest way to overcome the unknown is to make it known.

Right... and so how does man creating a fake and imaginary spiritual connection do that? Like I said, the explanation that this is why man invented spirituality doesn't comport with logic or common sense. We created something imaginary to explain the unknown, which doesn't actually explain anything... yet we are supposed to have "special thinking?"

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

Again, we can "easily say" all kinds of things, it doesn't make them correct. There is nothing special about our physical characteristics. Some animals are stronger, faster, see better, smell better, hear better... some creatures have larger brains and cerebral cortexes. And some animals have been around and evolving longer than us. What makes us unique among all animals is our ability to spiritually connect and realize something greater than self. It is through that attribute alone, we have gained the inspiration and courage to do what we couldn't do without it.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods.

Well this is a good thing since Science will never be able to do so!

 

[Montrovant]

We've been through this before. Humans are, so far as we're aware, the only animals really capable of the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do. What you attribute to a spiritual connection is easily explained by human intelligence and imagination.

Oh, I see how easily it is explained all the time by Atheists, trouble is, just because you easily explain it doesn't make your explanation correct. "...the kinds of thinking required to contemplate death the way we do..." What kind of thinking? The kind that creates fake placebos for fear and the unknown and continues to worship them for all their existence in spite of there being absolutely nothing to it? Doesn't sound like that takes any kind of "special thinking." Or maybe you mean the kind of thinking that considers our human spirit may live on after our physical life is over? I agree with you on this, we do seem to have that kind of thinking, but I believe it is because we comprehend a spiritual connection to something greater than self.

The opposite of fear is not courage. Courage is the ability to overcome fear; fear is a requirement for courage.

Well I am truly sorry you want to play the word parsing game here again, I am not interested in that kind of discussion at this time. Courage doesn't require fear, and if you honestly think that, you are a moron.



Right... and so how does man creating a fake and imaginary spiritual connection do that? Like I said, the explanation that this is why man invented spirituality doesn't comport with logic or common sense. We created something imaginary to explain the unknown, which doesn't actually explain anything... yet we are supposed to have "special thinking?"

Our physical characteristics, in particular our brains, can just as easily explain the things you credit to spiritual connection, and can do so with observable evidence. As usual, while you may be correct in your beliefs, the evidence does not clearly point to it.

Again, we can "easily say" all kinds of things, it doesn't make them correct. There is nothing special about our physical characteristics. Some animals are stronger, faster, see better, smell better, hear better... some creatures have larger brains and cerebral cortexes. And some animals have been around and evolving longer than us. What makes us unique among all animals is our ability to spiritually connect and realize something greater than self. It is through that attribute alone, we have gained the inspiration and courage to do what we couldn't do without it.

Science has no interest in disproving any gods.

Well this is a good thing since Science will never be able to do so!

You continue to downplay human intelligence, implying it is similar to other animals, when that is not the case based on observed evidence.

You say it doesn't take special thinking to create placebos to downplay fears and the unknown, but since humanity is the only creature to do so, it would appear that is exactly what it takes. Even if other animals do that kind of thing, since they don't appear to have the complex languages that humanity does (yet another unique human achievement attributable to our intelligence), it would be hard to be certain of it. Maybe our intelligence is the result of our supposed spiritual connection, but why do you insist on treating that intelligence, whatever the source, as merely a minor difference between humans and other animals?

You are insistent that the only thing 'special' about humanity, the only thing which differentiates us from other animals, is spiritual connection. This flies in the face of all observable evidence. Even if spiritual connection is the impetus behind our language, writing, and every bit of technology ever created, our medicine, our understanding of the universe, our contemplation of philosophy and the unknown, all those things we see in humans that we don't see in other species, those things are all still unique to humanity, so far as we know, on this planet. And while perhaps they are an outgrowth of spiritual connection, they absolutely could be attributable to human intelligence and reasoning and imagination.

As to courage....how is one courageous without overcoming fear? That's the whole point of courage; doing something despite the danger or fear involved. Perhaps you don't want to 'play the word parsing game' because you are operating under some personal definition of courage.

There is no reason to assume people will use logic or common sense in their beliefs. If there were, there would be no war, no murder, no strife. In the real world, people both ignore logic and common sense, and have different ideas about what those words entail.
Besides, religion does provide answers to the unknown. What happens when you die? You go to some sort of afterlife, you are reincarnated, etc. How was the universe created? God did it. How should I live, what should I teach my children? Here, read this sacred text and follow these rules. Even if it's all untrue, to the believer it is not, so it has the same effect.

I've repeatedly said that you may be correct, the point is that even if you are, the evidence for that is far, far from conclusive.

 

[Boss]

You continue to downplay human intelligence, implying it is similar to other animals, when that is not the case based on observed evidence.

You say it doesn't take special thinking to create placebos to downplay fears and the unknown, but since humanity is the only creature to do so, it would appear that is exactly what it takes.

But you are basing this on the assumption there is no God or spiritual nature to connect to. No... it takes real fucking moronic idiots to imagine something that isn't there in order to console fear and the unknown, and then do that their entire existence. They would have to completely abandon rational thought to do so. This is primarily why I don't believe that's what happened.

Even if other animals do that kind of thing, since they don't appear to have the complex languages that humanity does (yet another unique human achievement attributable to our intelligence), it would be hard to be certain of it.

We are certain that most mammals and primates DO have language and communicate. Crows have over 250 calls in their vocabulary and regional dialect. They can communicate to other crows about hostile humans and the other crows can recognize said humans without ever having seen them before, and this information is passed down generationally. Ants and bees communicate without language at all and do so to peak efficiency. Whales can communicate with each other for miles under the ocean... you tried doing that lately?

Maybe our intelligence is the result of our supposed spiritual connection, but why do you insist on treating that intelligence, whatever the source, as merely a minor difference between humans and other animals?

Because our actual "intelligence" is not that different. Some animals are more intelligent than us on certain things... do you know which flowers to pollinate and when? Do you know when there is a fire in the forest? Can you smell food 5 miles away? Can you put your body into a state of hibernation for the winter? Other animals do all kinds of amazing things with their intelligence, but they are not spiritually connected to something greater than self. They can't find inspirational motivation to push the limits of imagination and take their species where it's never gone before. Humans do this because we are spiritually connected.

You are insistent that the only thing 'special' about humanity, the only thing which differentiates us from other animals, is spiritual connection. This flies in the face of all observable evidence. Even if spiritual connection is the impetus behind our language, writing, and every bit of technology ever created, our medicine, our understanding of the universe, our contemplation of philosophy and the unknown, all those things we see in humans that we don't see in other species, those things are all still unique to humanity, so far as we know, on this planet. And while perhaps they are an outgrowth of spiritual connection, they absolutely could be attributable to human intelligence and reasoning and imagination.

And this is where you're just flat out wrong on numerous levels. The "observable evidence" is humanity, and how it is vastly different from everything including our supposed common ancestors. Spirituality was not invented and it didn't evolve into man. We humans didn't just pop onto the scene 100k years ago and start doing what no other creature before humans could do because of our superior brains. If that were so, we'd see other species evolving with similar characteristics, especially those who have been evolving much longer than humans. Why aren't the great apes at least developing language and chiseling out wheels from stone? The "observable evidence" suggests that humans have something the other animals don't, and that something is an intrinsic spiritual connection with something greater than self.

As to courage....how is one courageous without overcoming fear? That's the whole point of courage; doing something despite the danger or fear involved. Perhaps you don't want to 'play the word parsing game' because you are operating under some personal definition of courage.

You said that courage requires fear. Now you are saying courage overcomes fear. If it overcomes it, then it can't require it. Courage is the opposite of fear, and if you want to pretend that isn't true or there is some other antonym we can apply, then so be it. I am NOT PLAYING!

There is no reason to assume people will use logic or common sense in their beliefs. If there were, there would be no war, no murder, no strife. In the real world, people both ignore logic and common sense, and have different ideas about what those words entail.

I don't know why you think there would be no wars, murder or strife if everyone used logic and common sense. But okay, sometimes people do ignore common sense and logic, this thread is a good example of that. 88% of the fucking species hasn't ignored logic and common sense for all of our existence, unless we're all retards.

Besides, religion does provide answers to the unknown. What happens when you die? You go to some sort of afterlife, you are reincarnated, etc. How was the universe created? God did it. How should I live, what should I teach my children? Here, read this sacred text and follow these rules. Even if it's all untrue, to the believer it is not, so it has the same effect.

Hold on a minute... What happens when you die? Your physical organism stops living, but what happens to your spirit? This is unknown and no religion or science can provide evidence. How was the universe created? Science and religion don't have an answer. "God did it" doesn't answer the question. How did God do it? We don't know. How do I live, what do I teach my children... well what's wrong with teaching them to live like animals in the wild and survival of the fittest? Kill or be killed? That's how other animals deal with that question, it's not an unknown at all.

You're not presenting very good reasons for mankind to invent some imaginary thing that isn't real in order to answer questions that it either can't answer or doesn't need to answer. It makes no rational sense whatsoever.

I've repeatedly said that you may be correct, the point is that even if you are, the evidence for that is far, far from conclusive.

Well let's be clear, if anyone here had what we could all agree is "conclusive evidence" ...for ANYTHING... we would probably not be having this conversation. Maybe that point eludes you?

 

[Mephisto]

I WILL GIVE YOU SOME HELP!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD AND ALL others are demon inspired false so called gods!!!!

Which God is that? Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Odin...

There are many gods, the Christian god is just one of many.

 

[BreezeWood]

I WILL GIVE YOU SOME HELP!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD AND ALL others are demon inspired false so called gods!!!!

Which God is that? Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Odin...

There are many gods, the Christian god is just one of many.

Christianity is correct there is only one Almighty who rules the Everlasting - otherwise the Deity is the same as all other beings.

anyone may someday become a god.

.