Why do the God-haters persist?

[thebrucebeat]

See the red part above?
All of them are reacting to needs they have developed. Certain lacks they seek to correct. They don't inherently connect to any of those things. They satisfy a need when it arises.
Once again, you make my point for me, and I thank you.
Why do they do it? They are out of options. The last refuge for the desperate.

But I'm not making your point, I am making the counter to your point. You asked why people only turn to faith when they need it, but the fact is, that's not the only time people turn to faith. Many people have faith without any subsequent need. You don't see many people at AA meetings who don't need to be there.

I don't understand what you're saying with "they don't inherently connect to any of those things" and I don't think I've made that argument. "Inherently" means by natural character or ability. All humans are born with the natural characteristic and ability to connect spiritually to something greater than self. It is "intrinsic", meaning, belonging to a thing by its very nature. Perhaps you are confused by these words and believe that I am saying spirituality is "inexorable" or "inevitable"? People make the choice whether to exercise their spiritual connecting ability.

Humans tend to satisfy needs when they arise, they put off things that they don't find necessary or important. This simply doesn't mean those things are unimportant or unnecessary, just that an individual may find them to be under their circumstances. You may put off going to the doctor because you don't find it necessary or important, but it doesn't mean doctors are unimportant or unnecessary. Now, if you suddenly develop severe abdominal pain, your first inclination is to go see a doctor. Yesterday, you may have felt the doctor visit was unimportant and unnecessary.

Okay, now why is your natural reaction to go see the doctor for your severe abdominal pain? It's because you rationalize the doctor may be able to help. BUT... If doctors were meaningless and superficial and no one ever gained any benefit from going to see them, you may as well be rationalizing to go see a plumber. The fact that you are aware that people have been helped by going to see the doctor, helps you to rationalize why this is a wise move. The same thing applies to spiritual connection and people who are struggling with adversity.

So your new point is that people inherently have this capability to connect to the spiritual, but they ignore it unless they become desperate enough to put it to work.
Got it.

 

[thanatos144]

Religion was invented to explain the unknown scary things in a human's life. Apparently, some people are still afraid of the unknown.

Bullshit. Religion is sharing your faith with others. It is community. You dont like it ? Fine but stop trying to insult those who enjoy the community that their faith brings them.

 

[Boss]

Again, if intrinsic why do people "come" to faith? Why do they suddenly discover it if they had this inherent quality all along? Why does spirituality spike in the hard times and moderate in the good, statistically?
Stay with that other post that admits that people come to faith as a reaction to circumstance. You were standing at the door, about to wake from your stupor.

Why does an alcoholic wait until he has lost everything to seek help? Why do people wait until they are lost to get directions? Why do people wait until they are hungry to eat? Until they are sick to go to the doctor? Until their tooth aches to go to the dentist... etc., etc., etc. Why are humans vain and self-absorbed? I can't really answer these questions because it's just how we tend to be. Our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect is there, we're all born with it.

Some people do come to faith as a reaction to circumstance, others practice faith daily and have no circumstantial reason whatsoever. I see this girl jogging by my house everyday, she doesn't need to, she is in great shape. Me, I need to be out there jogging but I lack the motivation. There's no "template" everyone follows, we're all different. People tend to turn to faith more in times of adversity because they have nothing else. But here is the kicker; If there were nothing to it, if it were completely superficial and meaningless, no one would do it.

We all know about fad diets... Okay, imagine if someone came up with a fad diet where you can eat anything you want and never exercise, but for 30-minutes each morning, you stand in front of the mirror and tell yourself that you're losing weight. Now, if this worked, millions and millions of people would do it, whether they could explain how it works or not. Correct? But if it didn't produce results, what would happen? The fad would run it's course and people would simply abandon it. If, for all these years of human turmoil and struggle, the turning to spiritual faith for strength did not work, people would not do it. Yet, millions and millions do it, whether they can explain how it works or not.

Nonsense. Religion was invented to account for natural phenomenon which wasn't understood.

Why do you think there are gods of thunder, lightning, sun gods, moon gods, etc.?

SCIENCE was invented to account for natural phenomenon which wasn't understood.

Science provides answers to how nature operates.

Your promotion of fear and ignorance is what gave humanity the Dark Ages.

Science provides answers to how nature operates.
is just another way of saying:
Science accounts for natural phenomenon.

But this is why you claim "religion" was invented.

There is no one speaking of "fear" here except those who don't believe in God. Strange!

Ignorance is when you believe science has concluded things it hasn't yet proved. Like the origin of life, for example. Or "special evolution" that crosses the genus barrier. These are 'fanaticisms' you've invested faith in, and you promote them under the name of science.

As for "Dark Ages" you need to be more specific, there are about 20-30 different things you could be referencing with this term. If you mean the European Middle Ages, there are many misconceptions surrounding Renaissance and Enlightenment. While there were many reforms in science and culture, there were also many reforms in theology during this period. Most of the scientists of this time had no problem reconciling science and theological beliefs. Things are simply not as 'black and white' as you obviously think.

 

[koshergrl]

She's not going to give us any specifics because she doesn't know what she's talking about.

 

[Boss]

So your new point is that people inherently have this capability to connect to the spiritual, but they ignore it unless they become desperate enough to put it to work.
Got it.

Again, there is no "new" point. I have been consistent. You keep flailing around trying to take things all out of context and distort them into lies about what has been said, and I keep calling attention to that. I never said "they ignore it until" anything. Millions upon millions simply do not "ignore it until" and practice their spiritual connection every day, regardless of circumstance. The question was; why do people tend to turn to spirituality when faced with adversity? I answered the question, but now you want to twist my answer into some irrational statement which you can attack and pretend you've "won" some argument that wasn't being had.

Yeah, we "got it" a a long time ago. You're a lying dishonest little shit heel who will say and do whatever you can to keep your pretend balloon in the air. You're not genuinely interested in a debate or honest discussion, you are on a hapless mission to find ways to reject everything that is said.

 

[Boss]

No "intrinsic spiritual connection" has ever been proven. That some people disagree/don't have it would kinda disprove the statement, wouldn't you think? Otherwise we'd all feel it, no?

Here's the problem with your argument, NOTHING can be "proven!" Not even REALITY! I can reject any "proof" of reality by saying it's an illusion that doesn't really exist. There is no way to prove that I am wrong, and if you can't prove that I am wrong then you haven't proved reality.

No, we don't all "feel it" with regard to our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect. You're only going to "feel" your abilities when you recognize them and seek to utilize them. Do you think magicians are magical people who can make the impossible happen? Or are they people who have studied and honed an ability to do something the average person hasn't? Can anyone be a magician if they practice and utilize common skills? Clearly, not everyone IS a magician, but it does not mean magicians have some sort of special ability that others do not have.

 

[Spoonman]

Please don't pretend you know anything at all about the Dark Ages, ignoramus.

Why? they're obviously living in the dark

 

[thebrucebeat]

So your new point is that people inherently have this capability to connect to the spiritual, but they ignore it unless they become desperate enough to put it to work.
Got it.

Again, there is no "new" point. I have been consistent. You keep flailing around trying to take things all out of context and distort them into lies about what has been said, and I keep calling attention to that. I never said "they ignore it until" anything. Millions upon millions simply do not "ignore it until" and practice their spiritual connection every day, regardless of circumstance. The question was; why do people tend to turn to spirituality when faced with adversity? I answered the question, but now you want to twist my answer into some irrational statement which you can attack and pretend you've "won" some argument that wasn't being had.

Yeah, we "got it" a a long time ago. You're a lying dishonest little shit heel who will say and do whatever you can to keep your pretend balloon in the air. You're not genuinely interested in a debate or honest discussion, you are on a hapless mission to find ways to reject everything that is said.

Not at all!
Just the really silly inconsistent stuff, like yours!

 

[thebrucebeat]

Why does an alcoholic wait until he has lost everything to seek help? Why do people wait until they are lost to get directions? Why do people wait until they are hungry to eat? Until they are sick to go to the doctor? Until their tooth aches to go to the dentist... etc., etc., etc. Why are humans vain and self-absorbed? I can't really answer these questions because it's just how we tend to be. Our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect is there, we're all born with it.

Some people do come to faith as a reaction to circumstance, others practice faith daily and have no circumstantial reason whatsoever. I see this girl jogging by my house everyday, she doesn't need to, she is in great shape. Me, I need to be out there jogging but I lack the motivation. There's no "template" everyone follows, we're all different. People tend to turn to faith more in times of adversity because they have nothing else. But here is the kicker; If there were nothing to it, if it were completely superficial and meaningless, no one would do it.

We all know about fad diets... Okay, imagine if someone came up with a fad diet where you can eat anything you want and never exercise, but for 30-minutes each morning, you stand in front of the mirror and tell yourself that you're losing weight. Now, if this worked, millions and millions of people would do it, whether they could explain how it works or not. Correct? But if it didn't produce results, what would happen? The fad would run it's course and people would simply abandon it. If, for all these years of human turmoil and struggle, the turning to spiritual faith for strength did not work, people would not do it. Yet, millions and millions do it, whether they can explain how it works or not.




SCIENCE was invented to account for natural phenomenon which wasn't understood.

Science provides answers to how nature operates.

Your promotion of fear and ignorance is what gave humanity the Dark Ages.

Science provides answers to how nature operates.
is just another way of saying:
Science accounts for natural phenomenon.

But this is why you claim "religion" was invented.

There is no one speaking of "fear" here except those who don't believe in God. Strange!

Ignorance is when you believe science has concluded things it hasn't yet proved. Like the origin of life, for example. Or "special evolution" that crosses the genus barrier. These are 'fanaticisms' you've invested faith in, and you promote them under the name of science.

As for "Dark Ages" you need to be more specific, there are about 20-30 different things you could be referencing with this term. If you mean the European Middle Ages, there are many misconceptions surrounding Renaissance and Enlightenment. While there were many reforms in science and culture, there were also many reforms in theology during this period. Most of the scientists of this time had no problem reconciling science and theological beliefs. Things are simply not as 'black and white' as you obviously think.

I can point to dozens of posts on here that are by theists saying that god cures all fears. It isn't just non-believers talking about fear. It comes up all the time.

 

[thanatos144]

Science provides answers to how nature operates.

Your promotion of fear and ignorance is what gave humanity the Dark Ages.

Science provides answers to how nature operates.
is just another way of saying:
Science accounts for natural phenomenon.

But this is why you claim "religion" was invented.

There is no one speaking of "fear" here except those who don't believe in God. Strange!

Ignorance is when you believe science has concluded things it hasn't yet proved. Like the origin of life, for example. Or "special evolution" that crosses the genus barrier. These are 'fanaticisms' you've invested faith in, and you promote them under the name of science.

As for "Dark Ages" you need to be more specific, there are about 20-30 different things you could be referencing with this term. If you mean the European Middle Ages, there are many misconceptions surrounding Renaissance and Enlightenment. While there were many reforms in science and culture, there were also many reforms in theology during this period. Most of the scientists of this time had no problem reconciling science and theological beliefs. Things are simply not as 'black and white' as you obviously think.

I can point to dozens of posts on here that are by theists saying that god cures all fears. It isn't just non-believers talking about fear. It comes up all the time.

Ego is not a very helpful trait of yours.

 

[MrMax]

No "intrinsic spiritual connection" has ever been proven. That some people disagree/don't have it would kinda disprove the statement, wouldn't you think? Otherwise we'd all feel it, no?

Here's the problem with your argument, NOTHING can be "proven!" Not even REALITY! I can reject any "proof" of reality by saying it's an illusion that doesn't really exist. There is no way to prove that I am wrong, and if you can't prove that I am wrong then you haven't proved reality.

No, we don't all "feel it" with regard to our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect. You're only going to "feel" your abilities when you recognize them and seek to utilize them. Do you think magicians are magical people who can make the impossible happen? Or are they people who have studied and honed an ability to do something the average person hasn't? Can anyone be a magician if they practice and utilize common skills? Clearly, not everyone IS a magician, but it does not mean magicians have some sort of special ability that others do not have.

So what you're saying is that, like a magician, you aren't born with spiritual connectability, you have to learn it. Got it. So much for being intrinsic.

 

[Hollie]

No "intrinsic spiritual connection" has ever been proven. That some people disagree/don't have it would kinda disprove the statement, wouldn't you think? Otherwise we'd all feel it, no?

Here's the problem with your argument, NOTHING can be "proven!" Not even REALITY! I can reject any "proof" of reality by saying it's an illusion that doesn't really exist. There is no way to prove that I am wrong, and if you can't prove that I am wrong then you haven't proved reality.

No, we don't all "feel it" with regard to our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect. You're only going to "feel" your abilities when you recognize them and seek to utilize them. Do you think magicians are magical people who can make the impossible happen? Or are they people who have studied and honed an ability to do something the average person hasn't? Can anyone be a magician if they practice and utilize common skills? Clearly, not everyone IS a magician, but it does not mean magicians have some sort of special ability that others do not have.

I found it interesting that you used an analogy involving magic in connection with your claims to a spirit realm.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Science provides answers to how nature operates.
is just another way of saying:
Science accounts for natural phenomenon.

But this is why you claim "religion" was invented.

There is no one speaking of "fear" here except those who don't believe in God. Strange!

Ignorance is when you believe science has concluded things it hasn't yet proved. Like the origin of life, for example. Or "special evolution" that crosses the genus barrier. These are 'fanaticisms' you've invested faith in, and you promote them under the name of science.

As for "Dark Ages" you need to be more specific, there are about 20-30 different things you could be referencing with this term. If you mean the European Middle Ages, there are many misconceptions surrounding Renaissance and Enlightenment. While there were many reforms in science and culture, there were also many reforms in theology during this period. Most of the scientists of this time had no problem reconciling science and theological beliefs. Things are simply not as 'black and white' as you obviously think.

I can point to dozens of posts on here that are by theists saying that god cures all fears. It isn't just non-believers talking about fear. It comes up all the time.

Ego is not a very helpful trait of yours.

Maybe not, but you not addressing my argument doesn't do much for you, either.

 

[jillian]

Please don't pretend you know anything at all about the Dark Ages, ignoramus.

oh do tell what he was wrong about regarding the middle ages.

one of the most ignorant eras because people ignored science in favor of a vengeful and punishing higher being.

but that's always what happens when fire and brimstone type theocrats try to run things.

 

[Boss]

No "intrinsic spiritual connection" has ever been proven. That some people disagree/don't have it would kinda disprove the statement, wouldn't you think? Otherwise we'd all feel it, no?

Here's the problem with your argument, NOTHING can be "proven!" Not even REALITY! I can reject any "proof" of reality by saying it's an illusion that doesn't really exist. There is no way to prove that I am wrong, and if you can't prove that I am wrong then you haven't proved reality.

No, we don't all "feel it" with regard to our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect. You're only going to "feel" your abilities when you recognize them and seek to utilize them. Do you think magicians are magical people who can make the impossible happen? Or are they people who have studied and honed an ability to do something the average person hasn't? Can anyone be a magician if they practice and utilize common skills? Clearly, not everyone IS a magician, but it does not mean magicians have some sort of special ability that others do not have.

So what you're saying is that, like a magician, you aren't born with spiritual connectability, you have to learn it. Got it. So much for being intrinsic.

That's not what I said. You are born with it, just as you are born with the ability to do magic tricks. You have to learn how to use the ability, but it is intrinsic. Magicians don't learn some special ability to make things disappear or magic happen, they have the same exact abilities that you and I have as human beings. The same abilities we are all born with. They learn (and practice) to use that ability to make illusions happen.

Do you have it now? If not, we can go through it again and again until you get it.

 

[MrMax]

Here's the problem with your argument, NOTHING can be "proven!" Not even REALITY! I can reject any "proof" of reality by saying it's an illusion that doesn't really exist. There is no way to prove that I am wrong, and if you can't prove that I am wrong then you haven't proved reality.

No, we don't all "feel it" with regard to our intrinsic ability to spiritually connect. You're only going to "feel" your abilities when you recognize them and seek to utilize them. Do you think magicians are magical people who can make the impossible happen? Or are they people who have studied and honed an ability to do something the average person hasn't? Can anyone be a magician if they practice and utilize common skills? Clearly, not everyone IS a magician, but it does not mean magicians have some sort of special ability that others do not have.

So what you're saying is that, like a magician, you aren't born with spiritual connectability, you have to learn it. Got it. So much for being intrinsic.

That's not what I said. You are born with it, just as you are born with the ability to do magic tricks. You have to learn how to use the ability, but it is intrinsic. Magicians don't learn some special ability to make things disappear or magic happen, they have the same exact abilities that you and I have as human beings. The same abilities we are all born with. They learn (and practice) to use that ability to make illusions happen.

Do you have it now? If not, we can go through it again and again until you get it.

You're born with the ability to do magic tricks?

C'mon brah, if you keep it up, I'm gonna split a gut!!!

 

[Boss]

Please don't pretend you know anything at all about the Dark Ages, ignoramus.

oh do tell what he was wrong about regarding the middle ages.

one of the most ignorant eras because people ignored science in favor of a vengeful and punishing higher being.

but that's always what happens when fire and brimstone type theocrats try to run things.

But you are incorrect. There wasn't much "science" in the Middle Ages, in fact it wasn't even called "science" back then, it was "natural philosophy." One of the more bizarre theories of natural philosophy was Aristotle's theory of gravity and levity. That heavy things wanted to be closer to earth while lighter things wanted to be closer to the sky. Also his theory of motion-- that things in motion slow down because the become tired.

You depict a rather ignorant viewpoint of this era and the subsequent era to follow because it's as if you believe some event happened to unseat religious authority and put scientists in the positions of power. The Age of Enlightenment involved both science and religion, they both became enlightened at the same time. Theocrats still ran things, just as they always had, they simply had greater tolerance for science, culture, art, etc.

Fascinating is the history of some of the earliest "scientists" and their close relationship with theology...

Robert Grosseteste-- Teacher of theology at Oxford and "father of scientific thought."

Roger Bacon-- Catholic friar and theologian who wrote and presented to the Pope, Opus Majus, which presented his views on how to incorporate the philosophy of Aristotle and science into a new Theology. One of the earliest advocates of the Scientific Method.

Nicolaus Copernicus-- A Catholic cannon. He had a doctorate in cannon law (body of laws and regulations made by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of a Christian organization or church and its members.) Here is a man who considered himself "inspired by God" to give us the heliocentric theory.

William of Ockham-- English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian, He is commonly known for Occam's razor, the methodological principle that bears his name, and also produced significant works on logic, physics, and theology.

Galileo Galilei-- A genuinely pious Roman Catholic who played a major role in the scientific revolution. Although it is noted he had a stormy relationship with the Church, who condemned him for heresy, two of his daughters were nuns. He spent much of his life trying to reconcile the prevailing religious views and what he had discovered through science.

René Descartes-- Like Galileo, a staunch Catholic who spent most of his life defending science to the Church and trying to reconcile the difference in views. He has been called The Father of Modern Philosophy.

Blaise Pascal-- French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and Christian philosopher.

Isaac Newton-- Widely recognised as one of the most influential scientists of all time and as a key figure in the scientific revolution. He was a devout but unorthodox Christian. Newton saw God as the master creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation. in 1733, he wrote, Observations on Daniel and The Apocalypse of St. John, which essentially became the foundation for modern Protestant cannon.

The list goes on and on. I could give you at least 100 examples like these. To live in some fantasy world where "scientists" are not believers in God or don't believe in Spiritual Nature because they believe in Science instead, is simply a foolish delusion you're suffering from. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Boss]

So what you're saying is that, like a magician, you aren't born with spiritual connectability, you have to learn it. Got it. So much for being intrinsic.

That's not what I said. You are born with it, just as you are born with the ability to do magic tricks. You have to learn how to use the ability, but it is intrinsic. Magicians don't learn some special ability to make things disappear or magic happen, they have the same exact abilities that you and I have as human beings. The same abilities we are all born with. They learn (and practice) to use that ability to make illusions happen.

Do you have it now? If not, we can go through it again and again until you get it.

You're born with the ability to do magic tricks?

C'mon brah, if you keep it up, I'm gonna split a gut!!!

Well you are. Sorry if you thought magicians obtained some super-ability or something, they don't. They have the same human ability as you and I, believe it or not!

 

[MrMax]

That's not what I said. You are born with it, just as you are born with the ability to do magic tricks. You have to learn how to use the ability, but it is intrinsic. Magicians don't learn some special ability to make things disappear or magic happen, they have the same exact abilities that you and I have as human beings. The same abilities we are all born with. They learn (and practice) to use that ability to make illusions happen.

Do you have it now? If not, we can go through it again and again until you get it.

You're born with the ability to do magic tricks?

C'mon brah, if you keep it up, I'm gonna split a gut!!!

Well you are. Sorry if you thought magicians obtained some super-ability or something, they don't. They have the same human ability as you and I, believe it or not!

Ya, the ability to LEARN!!! Not some intrinsic ability to do magic! That's MAYBE the dumbest thing you've ever said.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You're born with the ability to do magic tricks?

C'mon brah, if you keep it up, I'm gonna split a gut!!!

Well you are. Sorry if you thought magicians obtained some super-ability or something, they don't. They have the same human ability as you and I, believe it or not!

Ya, the ability to LEARN!!! Not some intrinsic ability to do magic! That's MAYBE the dumbest thing you've ever said.

I don't know about that. There's a lot of competition.