Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

[Bfgrn]

According to the laws of nature, the only inalienable right that anyone has is the right to die.

The inalienable rights listed in the declaration of independence are derived from religious beliefs - they are "endowed by our creator". They are based on western civilization's concept of morality in a civilized society.

As society evolves, life's expectations evolve and our sense of morality evolves. For example: none of the major religions condemned slavery explicitly. Slavery was considered a normal oart of any civilization. Yet in modern times slavery is condemned as being undeniably immoral.

So the same holds true for health care. As society evolves our concept of inalienable rights evolves.

"governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

Once a majority of the people determine that health care is a right then it will be a right.

The question should not be whether health care is a right, but given limited medical resources, what level of health care should be considered a right.

No matter how many times we explain the difference between "natural rights" and "law of nature", you dimwits run right back to it the instant you want to justify picking people's pockets to buy yourselves something you don't want to pay for yourselves. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge; stupidity is stubbornly clinging to your lack of knowledge.

For all to see, the right wing mind infested with social Darwinism...survival of the richest.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

Who says anyone "believes" it's a right? No one could be that stupid. However, there are a great many who "claim" it is a right based on a desire to claim that which is not theirs.

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

 

[bripat9643]

Your information is not correct. Chili has private and public schools as do other Latin American countries. In Chili, 60% of the school system is private and 40% is public. They are 50th in the world according the 2012 PISA rankings. The US is 9% private schools and ranks 35th. In the top 5 countries, less than 10% of the students attend private schools.

The rankings aren't related to how schools are financed. The most important factor that accounts for the difference in rankings are the educational goals. In the US we provide 12 years of education for every student in a broad range of subjects. In many of the countries that rank higher than the US, only 8 years of education is required, 6 years in some countries. After that point students must qualify for admission to high school which is where PISA does the test comparisons. Those that don't qualify are funneled into vocational programs or allowed to drop out of school. Countries like the US that provide a broad range education for all students are at a distinct disadvantage. If the US allowed students to drop out of school after the 8th grade and required students to qualify for high school, our PISA scores would be near the top of list. Even if every school in the US was a private school, we would score low compared to many other countries because we have different educational goals.


Key findings - Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development

Education in Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe most people feel that every child has right to healthcare and a right to an education whether their parents can afford it or not.

Sorry for the long post, but you'll find I tend to go 'all out' when I respond. My bad on this book report.

First off... this isn't about "people feel". I don't care what people feel. People felt that borrowing money until they go broke, and get foreclosed on, was a great plan before 2008. What they 'feel' and what is good, is often very different.

Second... You are correct. I thought they had eliminated public schools. I was wrong. They still exist, but they are horrible. Everyone is trying to get into private schools, because... private schools are better.

Third... Chile is 50th in the world.... so what? You are comparing Chile to the US? Apples and Oranges.

I didn't say Chile was leading the world, I said Chile was leading other similar Latin American Countries. Compare Apples to other Apples.
According to your own citation, the PISA rankings, Chile is ranked higher than:

Uruguray
Mexico
Brazil
Colombia
Argentina
Bolivia
Peru
Venezuela
Panama
Costa Rica

So back to my point.... As far as I am aware, all of those countries I just listed, all have free gov-education schools. And yet Chile, the one country with a fee-for-service capitalist based education system, is providing the best, highest quality education out of all those countries.

And back the US Pisa rankings. Yes, I know. That is the problem. We're NUMBER ONE in cost, but 36th in quality.

When you compare how much is spent on education, compared to the Mean PISA scores (2009 numbers), Finland which scored #1, was spending about 60% as much as we do, to achieve those scores. Estonia, which scored around 8th, was spending less than 40% as much as we blow on education, to get that ranking. We're spending more than nearly anyone else, and achieving less than even the OECD average.

Something is wrong, and you said it....

"Countries like the US that provide a broad range education for all students are at a distinct disadvantage. If the US allowed students to drop out of school after the 8th grade and required students to qualify for high school, our PISA scores would be near the top of list. Even if every school in the US was a private school, we would score low compared to many other countries because we have different educational goals."

Yes, I agree completely. The problem is our education goals SUCK.

Little background.... While there is nothing even remotely remarkable about myself, I did have these amazing things called "parents", who also both happen to have been public school teachers. My father was a high school teacher, and my mother taught 4th grade.

I know... (only from talking to them) precisely what the problem is, because they have told me. You have students who don't want to learn, have no interest in doing work, and you can't get rid of them. You send them to the office, and the office sends them right back. You tell them to get to work, and they blow you off. They disrupt the class, they disrupt your lessons.

At the exact same time, you are instructed by the school system to teach X... then teach Y.... then teach Z.... then teach something else, and in the mean time you are not teaching Math, and Reading, and Writing, and Sciences. Then you wonder why the kids come out knowing about the Ozone Layer, and have no idea how to work a calculator, while they are busy feeling up the girls in the next seat instead of doing their work.......?

(FYI, true story... I met a guy in 11th grade, who could not work a calculator. Literally... did not know how to divide 6 by 2 on the calculator)

And then you have the lack of good teachers. My father specifically retired early, because of exactly this stuff. He was told to teach a dozen different things, and found he didn't have time to teach the fundamentals, and then student test scores were falling, and he was tired of putting up with students who refused to work. He called it quits. My mother said she would have retired early, if she didn't already have 38 years, and just needed to hang in for another 2 to get full retirement.

Contrary to the garbage spewed by the Teachers Unions (which my father was the Union Rep for the school he was at, and admits this too) it's not a problem of pay. The problem is that between demanding teachers teach everything except the fundamentals, while complaining students are not learning the fundamentals, and at the exact same time, preventing teachers and schools from kicking out kids who absolutely will not learn, but will distract other students from learning.... these two things, which you yourself just admitted too, make teaching a miserable job for many people. The result is, you end up with awful teachers, because the good quality teachers, either retire, or quit and find a private school to teach at. (because private schools tend to focus on the fundamentals, and kids who disrupt class and refuse to learn, are quickly removed).

By the way, another true story. I was given the opportunity to tour some private schools while I was in 12th grade. I went to a private school, to a class of 8th graders. The 8th graders were learning the exact same thing in their class, that I was being taught in 12th grade. I'm a product of public edujamaction.

The voucher system in Chili which subsidizes 85% of the private schools does not pay the full cost of private school. As a result, most of the vouchers have been issued to wealthy and upper middle class students. Although the government's cost of education has gone down, the cost of private schools has gone up. A large part of savings has not come from the voucher system but rather the elimination of government grants to college students and reduce government support for state supported universities. Most important the promised improvement in student performance has not occurred. Chili's vouchers system has reduced government cost of education while increasing the family cost without any significantly increase in student performance.

Massive student protests have been held throughout the country over last few years demanding an end to voucher system and has resulted in some reforms, one being an increase in government educational funding by 4 billion dollars. The demonstrations have also contributed to a dramatic fall in Piñera's approval rating.

Rethinking Schools Online

2011?13 Chilean student protests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And we should believe this why?

 

[bripat9643]

Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

Who says anyone "believes" it's a right? No one could be that stupid. However, there are a great many who "claim" it is a right based on a desire to claim that which is not theirs.

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

 

[Bfgrn]

Who says anyone "believes" it's a right? No one could be that stupid. However, there are a great many who "claim" it is a right based on a desire to claim that which is not theirs.

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

 

[dblack]

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Healthcare should fall under the same category as infrastrcture and be paid for 100% by the government that taxes its citizens. It citizens fall sick and can't work, they're not paying taxes as they would if healthy and working, thus it's in every government's best interest to ensure they maintain their population.

So long as healthcare is a for-profit endeavor, it's unethical, unjust, and one of several reasons I refuse to participate in the government. Beyond whatever legal obligations I'm under.

 

[Bfgrn]

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

 

[bripat9643]

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield.

That doesn't make it a right. We also offer them food, water and housing. Is there a right to be housed and fed?

I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists.

You said the battlefield. Now you're talking about terrorists.

[ You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

There is no such right. You certainly haven't proved it.

 

[dblack]

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

No, it's just a matter of word definitions. You might claim that whether we provide health care to people via government is a matter of humanity and civility, and while I'd disagree, at least your statement would make sense. But claiming health care is a right is as meaningful as saying that a loaf of bread is a race car.

I guess this whole 'health care is a right' campaign bugs me because it's demagoguery designed to manipulate the weak minded. Most people, even the weak minded, understand that the Constitution calls for our government to protect our rights. So advocates for state health care try to pretend that health care is a right. They figure that if they repeat that phrase enough, and enough idiots come to accept it, that we will then be obligated to accept the idea that government must provide it for us.

If you want to provide health care with government, like we do primary education and many other services (that are also not 'rights', btw), then make your case. But please, stop playing Orwellian games with language to try to trick people into supporting something they might not otherwise.

 

[RKMBrown]

Lots of people could be that stupid, actually. You can never overestimate the stupidity of human beings.

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

You are just a petty thief. You think you have the right to force your neighbor to service you at your beckon call. What a piece of shit.

 

[bripat9643]

Bfgrn is apparently that stupid.

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

Good point.

 

[bripat9643]

Healthcare should fall under the same category as infrastrcture and be paid for 100% by the government that taxes its citizens. It citizens fall sick and can't work, they're not paying taxes as they would if healthy and working, thus it's in every government's best interest to ensure they maintain their population.

So long as healthcare is a for-profit endeavor, it's unethical, unjust, and one of several reasons I refuse to participate in the government. Beyond whatever legal obligations I'm under.

Whether you "participate" in government or not, you are still subject to it. Government shouldn't be providing infrastructure, let alone healthcare. "Maintaining the population" isn't a legitimate function of the government. That's how a farmer treats his livestock.

 

[bripat9643]

Healthcare IS a right. This country even affords that right to enemy combatants on the battlefield. I don't hear any of you regressive social Darwinist scum bags crying that YOUR tax dollars are paying for triage doctors saving the lives of terrorists. You just want to deny American men, women and children that right...And then you have the nerve to CALL yourselves 'patriots'

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

So if I don't value your life then I'm a cretin, a vagabond and a barbarian?

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. I'm no more obligated to provide you with healthcare than I'm obligate to provide some savage in Nigeria with healthcare.

 

[Truthseeker420]

God Given right :

“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’-Deuteronomy 15:7-11

American Constitution:

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; ...

 

[RKMBrown]

God Given right :

“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’-Deuteronomy 15:7-11

American Constitution:

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; ...

Where in the bible does it say worship your government as your god and hand over to it your tithes for distribution to the needy?

Where in "preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness" is redistribute income at the point of a rifle?

 

[Bfgrn]

Whether we call health care a right or not isn't a matter of compassion. It's a matter of accuracy.

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

So if I don't value your life then I'm a cretin, a vagabond and a barbarian?

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. I'm no more obligated to provide you with healthcare than I'm obligate to provide some savage in Nigeria with healthcare.

You ARE a cretin. You have ZERO morals, ethics or a conscience. You are a typical right wing social Darwinist...

Here is who and what you are, you are the 3rd from the right...a tool and a parrot...

And you right wing scum are NOT Christians...you are the children of Satan...

Luke 16:13-15

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

 

[RKMBrown]

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

So if I don't value your life then I'm a cretin, a vagabond and a barbarian?

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. I'm no more obligated to provide you with healthcare than I'm obligate to provide some savage in Nigeria with healthcare.

You ARE a cretin. You have ZERO morals, ethics or a conscience. You are a typical right wing social Darwinist...

Here is who and what you are, you are the 3rd from the right...a tool and a parrot...

And you right wing scum are NOT Christians...you are the children of Satan...

Luke 16:13-15

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

What makes you think the US Government is our church?

 

[Truthseeker420]

God Given right :

“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’-Deuteronomy 15:7-11

American Constitution:

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; ...

Where in the bible does it say worship your government as your god and hand over to it your tithes for distribution to the needy?

Where in "preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness" is redistribute income at the point of a rifle?

you want to change the argument to worship,tithes and GOP talking points?

 

[Truthseeker420]

It is a matter of humanity and civility. If we don't value our own people, then we are no longer a nation. We are a collection of cretins, barbarians and vagabonds.

So if I don't value your life then I'm a cretin, a vagabond and a barbarian?

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. I'm no more obligated to provide you with healthcare than I'm obligate to provide some savage in Nigeria with healthcare.

You ARE a cretin. You have ZERO morals, ethics or a conscience. You are a typical right wing social Darwinist...

Here is who and what you are, you are the 3rd from the right...a tool and a parrot...

And you right wing scum are NOT Christians...you are the children of Satan...

Luke 16:13-15

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

yes