Why I don't believe in God

[ChrisL]

You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.

Nope... I am spouting FACTS. You and silly boob are interjecting your OPINIONS and demanding they be accepted as FACTS. That is why this argument rages on.

What facts? I've not seen any from you.

Well, the fact that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures and have been for as long as we can find any remnants of human settlement or civilization. That's just indisputable fact. Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination, that's up to you to decide... there's no PROOF of anything. But the fact remains, whether any truth at all is there, humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.

There is a somewhat famous quote by Freud, I think... he said, "If there were no such thing as God, man would have to invent him." Now, Atheists will use this quote to say... ah-ha! So man MUST have invented God! But that isn't the point Freud is making at all... It's that our minds are such that we MUST have something greater than self to have faith in. We're "hard wired" to be spiritual and be spiritually connected to something. Whether we accept that or deny it, doesn't really matter.

SOME humans do. SOME.

 

[Boss]

But you haven't given us ANY evidence.

How much evidence do you need that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures? We have 42,000 years of archaeology to support that.

Look... let me take your SAME argument and apply it to LOVE... Can you provide evidence that LOVE exists? Obviously, humans experience an emotion we call LOVE. But what is that? Can you define what constitutes LOVE? Can you prove LOVE to me? Can you show me evidence of your LOVE for someone else? What if I tell you that I don't believe LOVE exists... it's just something we made up to console our fears? How long will you spend arguing with my denial of LOVE?

This is not evidence though. Lol.

What do you mean, goofy? Of course it's evidence!

Evidence of what?

Human spirituality. Are you not keeping up?

 

[Boss]

You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.

Nope... I am spouting FACTS. You and silly boob are interjecting your OPINIONS and demanding they be accepted as FACTS. That is why this argument rages on.

What facts? I've not seen any from you.

Well, the fact that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures and have been for as long as we can find any remnants of human settlement or civilization. That's just indisputable fact. Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination, that's up to you to decide... there's no PROOF of anything. But the fact remains, whether any truth at all is there, humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.

There is a somewhat famous quote by Freud, I think... he said, "If there were no such thing as God, man would have to invent him." Now, Atheists will use this quote to say... ah-ha! So man MUST have invented God! But that isn't the point Freud is making at all... It's that our minds are such that we MUST have something greater than self to have faith in. We're "hard wired" to be spiritual and be spiritually connected to something. Whether we accept that or deny it, doesn't really matter.

SOME humans do. SOME.

No.. ALL humans. You are trying to exemplify your lack of religious faith as proof but there are some flaws in your logic. First of all, religion is not spiritual connection. You can be very spiritually-connected (like me) and not be the least bit religious. Secondly, you've not lived your entire life yet so you can't say what you have or haven't managed to live with or without. And finally, there is what you and I define as "spiritual" and they can be completely different. In other words, you can have the spiritual belief in something greater than self but refuse to identify that as "spirituality" even though, that's what it is. I can't confirm or deny what's inside your heart.

Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other. If it makes you feel better to disbelieve that, fine... you can believe whatever you please. But it's simply not a fact.

 

[ChrisL]

You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.

Nope... I am spouting FACTS. You and silly boob are interjecting your OPINIONS and demanding they be accepted as FACTS. That is why this argument rages on.

What facts? I've not seen any from you.

Well, the fact that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures and have been for as long as we can find any remnants of human settlement or civilization. That's just indisputable fact. Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination, that's up to you to decide... there's no PROOF of anything. But the fact remains, whether any truth at all is there, humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.

There is a somewhat famous quote by Freud, I think... he said, "If there were no such thing as God, man would have to invent him." Now, Atheists will use this quote to say... ah-ha! So man MUST have invented God! But that isn't the point Freud is making at all... It's that our minds are such that we MUST have something greater than self to have faith in. We're "hard wired" to be spiritual and be spiritually connected to something. Whether we accept that or deny it, doesn't really matter.

SOME humans do. SOME.

No.. ALL humans. You are trying to exemplify your lack of religious faith as proof but there are some flaws in your logic. First of all, religion is not spiritual connection. You can be very spiritually-connected (like me) and not be the least bit religious. Secondly, you've not lived your entire life yet so you can't say what you have or haven't managed to live with or without. And finally, there is what you and I define as "spiritual" and they can be completely different. In other words, you can have the spiritual belief in something greater than self but refuse to identify that as "spirituality" even though, that's what it is. I can't confirm or deny what's inside your heart.

Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other. If it makes you feel better to disbelieve that, fine... you can believe whatever you please. But it's simply not a fact.

Nope, they are not. You have just been brainwashed to believe so. You have your own belief system, and that is all it is. It has no effect on me, and that has nothing to do with civility, etc.

 

[Boss]

Nope, they are not. You have just been brainwashed to believe so. You have your own belief system, and that is all it is. It has no effect on me, and that has nothing to do with civility, etc.

You sound like the one who has been brainwashed. We all have our own belief system, I've never argued otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that humans are spiritually-inspired creatures and always have been. Some people cleverly disguise their spiritual beliefs as something else because they've built up this negative connotation over a word they believe is associated with religion. If we converse long enough, we can get to the core of your personal belief system and it likely will have something to do with something beyond your capacity as an individual organism. Just the acknowledgement that you have a "belief system" is evidence of your spirituality.

 

[Boss]

...and that has nothing to do with civility...

And if THIS is going to be stated as if it's a fact, it has to be supported with evidence which you're failing to provide. You see... that's the only real problem I ever have arguing with the Atheists. They constantly want to present these opinions as facts when they haven't supported them with evidence.

When we observe the things which make up a "civilized" society, we find they are rooted in faith. We begin with having faith in another. At some point, one human had faith that another human wouldn't kill him as he slept. Nature didn't do that, the laws of nature say.. I'm stronger, you're weaker, you die, I survive. I kill your tribe so my tribe has more resources. But "civility" comes through faith and trust. Had it not been for our ability to actualize something greater than self, a "higher purpose" as it were, we would never have become civilized. We would still be primitive creatures with no concept of morality or humanity.

 

[BreezeWood]

You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.

Nope... I am spouting FACTS. You and silly boob are interjecting your OPINIONS and demanding they be accepted as FACTS. That is why this argument rages on.

What facts? I've not seen any from you.

Well, the fact that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures and have been for as long as we can find any remnants of human settlement or civilization. That's just indisputable fact. Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination, that's up to you to decide... there's no PROOF of anything. But the fact remains, whether any truth at all is there, humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.

There is a somewhat famous quote by Freud, I think... he said, "If there were no such thing as God, man would have to invent him." Now, Atheists will use this quote to say... ah-ha! So man MUST have invented God! But that isn't the point Freud is making at all... It's that our minds are such that we MUST have something greater than self to have faith in. We're "hard wired" to be spiritual and be spiritually connected to something. Whether we accept that or deny it, doesn't really matter.

.

Bos: Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination ... humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.

the " greater than self " is purely a gratuitous argument of ones own self worth, as demeaning and requiring worship rather than solutions. a flaw in humanity that would lead eventually to the species extinction - - > called religion.

no Fauna and Flora do not follow your brand of Spiritualism bossy, thankfully.

.

 

[Mudda]

...and that has nothing to do with civility...

And if THIS is going to be stated as if it's a fact, it has to be supported with evidence which you're failing to provide. You see... that's the only real problem I ever have arguing with the Atheists. They constantly want to present these opinions as facts when they haven't supported them with evidence.

When we observe the things which make up a "civilized" society, we find they are rooted in faith. We begin with having faith in another. At some point, one human had faith that another human wouldn't kill him as he slept. Nature didn't do that, the laws of nature say.. I'm stronger, you're weaker, you die, I survive. I kill your tribe so my tribe has more resources. But "civility" comes through faith and trust. Had it not been for our ability to actualize something greater than self, a "higher purpose" as it were, we would never have become civilized. We would still be primitive creatures with no concept of morality or humanity.

You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?

 

[Boss]

You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?

Because there IS proof. 42k years ago, humans were being spiritual while burying the dead. Regardless of whether the things they believed were accurate or true, they still held the spiritual belief they were true.

Okay look at it like this... IF I SAID: There is no evidence that anyone believes in UFOs! Would you say that is a correct statement? What is wrong with that statement if I don't believe in any evidence for UFOs? Well-- first of all, it's OBVIOUS people DO believe in UFOs. Whether their beliefs are valid is not the issue. Whether their evidence is legitimate or you accept it as evidence, doesn't matter with regard to the fact that some people DO believe in UFOs.

Humans are spiritual... that means, they are connected with something outside of the physical self or their own physical self-awareness. There may be all kinds of arguments over what exactly that thing is, but humans do have this behavioral attribute, it's fundamental to our humanity and it has existed in anything we could ever call a human (homo sapien). To claim there is no evidence for this is absurd.

 

[Boss]

...without any tangible proof...

What I keep getting from you and other Atheists is this continuing demand for some kind of physical proof (tangible) for something that is spiritual in nature. There is a very clear paradox here. How can I show you physical evidence of something that, once it has 'physical' evidence, can no longer be a spiritual thing, by definition?

Looking for the physical evidence of anything spiritual in nature, including God... is like looking for the shark in Jaws on Mt. Everest. You're not looking in the right place. You're never going to find the evidence there. If you ever did find evidence there, it would contradict what you're looking for.

Okay... but let's set this aside for a moment and entertain your thought... You want some kind of "tangible proof" for this thing I keep referencing as "spiritual nature" in my posts... Why don't you tell me, as an objective analyst, what would you expect to see in terms of something that would "prove" spiritual nature exists to you? Give me some examples of things you think would convince you that spiritual nature is real? (...From a purely physical standpoint, of course.)

Yeah... not that easy to do, is it?

 

[Mudda]

You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?

Because there IS proof. 42k years ago, humans were being spiritual while burying the dead. Regardless of whether the things they believed were accurate or true, they still held the spiritual belief they were true.

Okay look at it like this... IF I SAID: There is no evidence that anyone believes in UFOs! Would you say that is a correct statement? What is wrong with that statement if I don't believe in any evidence for UFOs? Well-- first of all, it's OBVIOUS people DO believe in UFOs. Whether their beliefs are valid is not the issue. Whether their evidence is legitimate or you accept it as evidence, doesn't matter with regard to the fact that some people DO believe in UFOs.

Humans are spiritual... that means, they are connected with something outside of the physical self or their own physical self-awareness. There may be all kinds of arguments over what exactly that thing is, but humans do have this behavioral attribute, it's fundamental to our humanity and it has existed in anything we could ever call a human (homo sapien). To claim there is no evidence for this is absurd.

The belief in UFOs isn't inherent to humans, just like spirituality. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Mudda]

...without any tangible proof...

What I keep getting from you and other Atheists is this continuing demand for some kind of physical proof (tangible) for something that is spiritual in nature. There is a very clear paradox here. How can I show you physical evidence of something that, once it has 'physical' evidence, can no longer be a spiritual thing, by definition?

Looking for the physical evidence of anything spiritual in nature, including God... is like looking for the shark in Jaws on Mt. Everest. You're not looking in the right place. You're never going to find the evidence there. If you ever did find evidence there, it would contradict what you're looking for.

Okay... but let's set this aside for a moment and entertain your thought... You want some kind of "tangible proof" for this thing I keep referencing as "spiritual nature" in my posts... Why don't you tell me, as an objective analyst, what would you expect to see in terms of something that would "prove" spiritual nature exists to you? Give me some examples of things you think would convince you that spiritual nature is real? (...From a purely physical standpoint, of course.)

Yeah... not that easy to do, is it?

You're the one who claims spirituality as a fact that's inherent to humans. Up to you to find proof and present it.

 

[hobelim]

Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other.

People are still flinging shit at each other all over the whole world. Its just more highly evolved shit flinging.

And as has been pointed out to you numerous times, it is the instinct to survive that is intrinsically hard-wired.

As far back as you want to go people practiced superstition and religion historically because if they didn't they were excluded from social life, persecuted, and killed.

Thats a fact. If you don't believe me you can look it up.


To this day many Christians who profess love thy neighbor openly set aside the teaching of Jesus and practice anathema because of one sentence written by Paul. Go figure. How many people today practice Christianity simply out of fear of the threatened financial ruin and suffering related to being marked as a pariah and banished from the support of the community?. How many people profess to believe in and practice Islam simply out of the fear of being beaten mutilated and dismembered? How many atheists on this board would be on their hands and knees praying fervently towards mecca if they were living under such a threat?

 

[Boss]

...without any tangible proof...

What I keep getting from you and other Atheists is this continuing demand for some kind of physical proof (tangible) for something that is spiritual in nature. There is a very clear paradox here. How can I show you physical evidence of something that, once it has 'physical' evidence, can no longer be a spiritual thing, by definition?

Looking for the physical evidence of anything spiritual in nature, including God... is like looking for the shark in Jaws on Mt. Everest. You're not looking in the right place. You're never going to find the evidence there. If you ever did find evidence there, it would contradict what you're looking for.

Okay... but let's set this aside for a moment and entertain your thought... You want some kind of "tangible proof" for this thing I keep referencing as "spiritual nature" in my posts... Why don't you tell me, as an objective analyst, what would you expect to see in terms of something that would "prove" spiritual nature exists to you? Give me some examples of things you think would convince you that spiritual nature is real? (...From a purely physical standpoint, of course.)

Yeah... not that easy to do, is it?

You're the one who claims spirituality as a fact that's inherent to humans. Up to you to find proof and present it.

Well it is and it has been. You've been shown the evidence, it has been presented several times. Even tried using an analogy to get your to understand but you're unable to comprehend. If you insist on sitting there ignoring it, I can't help that.

I didn't "claim spirituality as a fact" ...I claimed humans have spirituality and that's a fact. It's behavior that is inherent because we've had it for 42k years or longer. Until you can present another species who has exhibited any behavior for 42k years that is NOT inherent, then biology supports my argument and you have nothing.

And I think that's the whole problem here... you have nothing. So you have decided to bow up and be as goofy as you can. I guess pretending you're a rodeo clown has worked in debates before for you?

 

[Boss]

You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?

Because there IS proof. 42k years ago, humans were being spiritual while burying the dead. Regardless of whether the things they believed were accurate or true, they still held the spiritual belief they were true.

Okay look at it like this... IF I SAID: There is no evidence that anyone believes in UFOs! Would you say that is a correct statement? What is wrong with that statement if I don't believe in any evidence for UFOs? Well-- first of all, it's OBVIOUS people DO believe in UFOs. Whether their beliefs are valid is not the issue. Whether their evidence is legitimate or you accept it as evidence, doesn't matter with regard to the fact that some people DO believe in UFOs.

Humans are spiritual... that means, they are connected with something outside of the physical self or their own physical self-awareness. There may be all kinds of arguments over what exactly that thing is, but humans do have this behavioral attribute, it's fundamental to our humanity and it has existed in anything we could ever call a human (homo sapien). To claim there is no evidence for this is absurd.

The belief in UFOs isn't inherent to humans, just like spirituality. Thanks for clearing that up.

I didn't argue the belief in UFOs is inherent. That was not the point of the analogy.

 

[Mudda]

...without any tangible proof...

What I keep getting from you and other Atheists is this continuing demand for some kind of physical proof (tangible) for something that is spiritual in nature. There is a very clear paradox here. How can I show you physical evidence of something that, once it has 'physical' evidence, can no longer be a spiritual thing, by definition?

Looking for the physical evidence of anything spiritual in nature, including God... is like looking for the shark in Jaws on Mt. Everest. You're not looking in the right place. You're never going to find the evidence there. If you ever did find evidence there, it would contradict what you're looking for.

Okay... but let's set this aside for a moment and entertain your thought... You want some kind of "tangible proof" for this thing I keep referencing as "spiritual nature" in my posts... Why don't you tell me, as an objective analyst, what would you expect to see in terms of something that would "prove" spiritual nature exists to you? Give me some examples of things you think would convince you that spiritual nature is real? (...From a purely physical standpoint, of course.)

Yeah... not that easy to do, is it?

You're the one who claims spirituality as a fact that's inherent to humans. Up to you to find proof and present it.

Well it is and it has been. You've been shown the evidence, it has been presented several times. Even tried using an analogy to get your to understand but you're unable to comprehend. If you insist on sitting there ignoring it, I can't help that.

I didn't "claim spirituality as a fact" ...I claimed humans have spirituality and that's a fact. It's behavior that is inherent because we've had it for 42k years or longer. Until you can present another species who has exhibited any behavior for 42k years that is NOT inherent, then biology supports my argument and you have nothing.

And I think that's the whole problem here... you have nothing. So you have decided to bow up and be as goofy as you can. I guess pretending you're a rodeo clown has worked in debates before for you?

Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.

 

[Boss]

Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other.

People are still flinging shit at each other all over the whole world. Its just more highly evolved shit flinging.

And as has been pointed out to you numerous times, it is the instinct to survive that is intrinsically hard-wired.

As far back as you want to go people practiced superstition and religion historically because if they didn't they were excluded from social life, persecuted, and killed.

Thats a fact. If you don't believe me you can look it up.


To this day many Christians who profess love thy neighbor openly set aside the teaching of Jesus and practice anathema because of one sentence written by Paul. Go figure. How many people today practice Christianity simply out of fear of the threatened financial ruin and suffering related to being marked as a pariah and banished from the support of the community?. How many people profess to believe in and practice Islam simply out of the fear of being beaten mutilated and dismembered? How many atheists on this board would be on their hands and knees praying fervently towards mecca if they were living under such a threat?

It's been pointed out numerous times your theory is full of flaws. First of all, the instinct to survive is inherent to ALL living things. The nuts and bolts are, that's kind of what separates living and non-living things. If you are a living organism, you possess the instinct to survive. Applying that and then trying to pretend it's the only thing inherent in humans is simple-minded retardation of the special kind. Seriously, you need to be riding the short bus.

Fear often motivates behavior, there is no question about that. However, irrational fear is not retained as a fundamental behavioral characteristic of anything that I am aware of. So to make your theory work, we have to imagine a universe where some humans know they are telling a lie and manipulating others who react out of fear. If this defined human spirituality we'd call it "politics!" It would have taken an intelligent species such as human about 200-300 years to realize they were being manipulated by lying power brokers and that would have been the end of human spirituality in our species.

To give us examples of religions that have exploited and manipulated people is just more evidence of our strong and profound human spirituality. If we weren't intrinsically spiritual creatures, religion couldn't exploit anything or manipulate anyone.

 

[Boss]

Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.

Then by your criteria, (If it started somewhere, it's not inherent.) there is no such thing as inherent behavior and that term has no meaning.

I never said all humans are spiritual. Why do you continue to insist on twisting my words and trying to distort the things I am saying? All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self, with the exception of humans who have no cognizance or valid mental faculties. Some people choose not to utilize their capacity... no argument there!

 

[Mudda]

Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.

Then by your criteria, (If it started somewhere, it's not inherent.) there is no such thing as inherent behavior and that term has no meaning.

I never said all humans are spiritual. Why do you continue to insist on twisting my words and trying to distort the things I am saying? All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self, with the exception of humans who have no cognizance or valid mental faculties. Some people choose not to utilize their capacity... no argument there!

Eating is inherent. Without it we die.

"All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self". You have not proven this yet. Define "greater than self" then prove it.

 

[Boss]

Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.

Then by your criteria, (If it started somewhere, it's not inherent.) there is no such thing as inherent behavior and that term has no meaning.

I never said all humans are spiritual. Why do you continue to insist on twisting my words and trying to distort the things I am saying? All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self, with the exception of humans who have no cognizance or valid mental faculties. Some people choose not to utilize their capacity... no argument there!

Eating is inherent. Without it we die.

"All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self". You have not proven this yet. Define "greater than self" then prove it.

inherent: existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute. It doesn't say anything about inherent meaning something a living thing cannot live without. That would be an "essential" thing and "essential" things are often inherent. But that isn't what "inherent" means.

Again.. we run into a problem with you and definitions of words.