Why I dont post here

[Charles_Main]

This insistence that a one-state solution is somehow immoral and racist is absurd and is the primary reason why you get into these exchanges of "you a fascist no you're a fascist." Stop it.

I do not think it is racist, or immoral. I just think it is a bad Idea that will lead to more violence on both sides, not less.

 

[Reality]

I do not think it is racist, or immoral. I just think it is a bad Idea that will lead to more violence on both sides, not less.

Lebanon is no Disney World, don't get me wrong. But look at the country's civil war (in my opinion the most complicated conflict to understand politically), and look at the country's history since 1990. Its not great, but its much better. Taif brought all these people together in a power sharing agreement and while Lebanon still has tons of issues, Palestinian refugees still on the list, its a lot better than 25 years ago. Its not utopia but if the Palestinians and Israelis could get along even as well as Lebanon's Shiites and Maronites, it might seem damn near that in comparison to the greater part of the last 60 years.

 

[Charles_Main]

Lebanon is no Disney World, don't get me wrong. But look at the country's civil war (in my opinion the most complicated conflict to understand politically), and look at the country's history since 1990. Its not great, but its much better. Taif brought all these people together in a power sharing agreement and while Lebanon still has tons of issues, Palestinian refugees still on the list, its a lot better than 25 years ago. Its not utopia but if the Palestinians and Israelis could get along even as well as Lebanon's Shiites and and Maronites, it might seem damn near that in comparison the the greater part of the last 60 years.

It is better? brought them together? Did you ever notice that Lebanon used to be Majority Christian and is now Majority Muslim. Did you ever ask yourself why. Hezbollah is systematically driving out the Christians, and using violence to control the government. Hardly Disney world is right. It is a hell hole.

we simply rarely hear about how bad it is in Lebanon anymore, mainly because Israel is no longer backing the Christians in a civil war, and therefore the Media no longer cares about it.

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2008/05/lebanon_the_ble.php

 

[roomy]

He's a fucking moron, he has bought into the terrorism route, fuck him and his latest cause celebre, he's a thick racist bastard.

 

[Reality]

It is better? brought them together? Did you ever notice that Lebanon used to be Majority Christian and is now Majority Muslim. Did you ever ask yourself why. Hezbollah is systematically driving out the Christians, and using violence to control the government. Hardly Disney world is right. It is a hell hole.

At least 10% of the population being Palestinian refugees will change the dynamic of any country, citizens or not. Lebanon has population growth and the birth rate among Muslims is higher than among Christians.

Over 900,000 Lebanese emigrated between the outbreak of civil war in 1975 and 2001 (about 45% during the last decade of Syrian tutelage).[17] Although it was once assumed that a majority of these recent emigrants are Christian, one study estimates the percentage departure rates within each confession as 22% of Sunnis, 21% of Shiites, 21% of Maronites, 23% of Greek Orthodox Christians and 15% of Druze.[18] A 2006 study conducted by the Lebanese Emigration Research Center at Notre Dame University (in Lebanon) found that emigration is equally sought by Muslims (59.7%) and Christians (61.3%), and for virtually the same socio-political reasons

In 1971, Shiites showed the highest fertility rate of 3.8, followed by Sunnis (2.8), (Maronite and non-Maronite) Catholics (2), Druze (1.8) and non-Catholic Christians (1.7).[20] By 1988, according to one projection, the percentage of Shiites in Lebanon had risen to 32%, while the number of Maronites had dwindled to 17%

http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0801/0801_2.htm

 

[Charles_Main]

At least 10% of the population being Palestinian refugees will change the dynamic of any country, citizens or not. Lebanon has population growth and the birth rate among Muslims is higher than among Christians.

Ah so they are just breeding them out, it has nothing to do with the Christians losing the civil war eh.

At least you did not dispute that Hezbollah enforces it's will on the Government through violence and fear.

So when you brought up Lebanon, were you suggesting that Israel and the Palestinians should look forward to being like Lebanon?

The near constant violence and strife in Lebanon is a great argument against a 1 state solution in Israel, Not for it. IMO anyways.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Reality
This insistence that a one-state solution is somehow immoral and racist is absurd and is the primary reason why you get into these exchanges of "you a fascist no you're a fascist." Stop it.

600,000 people died in the Civil War in our own country. Is the south any more subjugated to Washington than the north today? Jews and Muslims lived in relative peace for centuries, at least with less violence and suffering that today, and Israel has lived in relative peace for very short amounts of time with its neighbors (1999 for example). There is no reason to call people antisemitic for thinking that a single state in a semi-autonomous republic, with administration of each BOTH IN JERUSALEM, that can find a way to work together enough to not kill each other won't make things a lot better than today. You can disagree without calling me antisemitic.

What a fantastic, tremendously lucid post, Reality.

The first step towards the democratisation of Palestine is to do away with the grotesque, childish caricatures of the palestinian people that prevail in the West: a horde of irrational arabs, murderous monsters determined to exterminate the jewish population of Palestine.

The second step is to work actively to neutralize the small minority of real shitheads who do not accept peaceful coexistence.

The only disagreement between us is that I deem necessary to invest a lot more in the security of the jewish people than a mere power sharing agreement following the lines of the lebanese case.

For a one state solution to work the international community has to address both THE REAL AND THE IMAGINARY FEARS of the jewish population of Palestine.

It is imperative that the international community comes up with a plan that satisfies the jewish paranoia with security 100%.

The history of anti semitism in the Middle East PALES when compared to Europe’s, but this doesn’t matter either, it’s not enought that the jewish people is safe, they have to BELIEVE they are safe.

So I firmly believe that the proposal of an international protectorate with a massive presence of foreign troops would create a better psychological climate for the jewish people finally accept the peaceful dismantlement of the jewish racial dictatorship (coupled with international pressure).

If José, a poor "cucaracha", conceived the reasonably fair plan I exposed in a previous post, just imagine what the most brilliant minds in the fields of political science, sociology, economics, defense etc, etc... can come up with working together.

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

The big irony in all this controversy is that no one is actually stating Israel’s dismantlement should happen overnight and no one wants to see palestinian majority rule in Palestine following the south african model for the forseeable future.

The only place you find the idea of palestinian majority rule following the south african model is in the posts of bigots who want to ridicule and discredit the idea of a new political configuration for Palestine based on equal rights in a unitary state.

 

[dilloduck]

What a fantastic, tremendously lucid post, Reality.

The first step towards the democratisation of Palestine is to do away with the grotesque, childish caricatures of the palestinian people that prevail in the West: a horde of irrational arabs, murderous monsters determined to exterminate the jewish population of Palestine.

The second step is to work actively to neutralize the small minority of real shitheads who do not accept peaceful coexistence.

The only disagreement between us is that I deem necessary to invest a lot more in the security of the jewish people than a mere power sharing agreement following the lines of the lebanese case.

For a one state solution to work the international community has to address both THE REAL AND THE IMAGINARY FEARS of the jewish population of Palestine.

It is imperative that the international community comes up with a plan that satisfies the jewish paranoia with security 100%.

The history of anti semitism in the Middle East PALES when compared to Europe’s, but this doesn’t matter either, it’s not enought that the jewish people is safe, they have to BELIEVE they are safe.

So I firmly believe that the proposal of an international protectorate with a massive presence of foreign troops would create a better psychological climate for the jewish people finally accept the peaceful dismantlement of the jewish racial dictatorship (coupled with international pressure).

If José, a poor "cucaracha", conceived the reasonably fair plan I exposed in a previous post, just imagine what the most brilliant minds in the fields of political science, sociology, economics, defense etc, etc... can come up with working together.

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

The big irony in all this controversy is that no one is actually stating Israel’s dismantlement should happen overnight and no one wants to see palestinian majority rule in Palestine following the south african model for the forseeable future.

The only place you find the idea of palestinian majority rule following the south african model is in the posts of bigots who want to ridicule and discredit the idea of a new political configuration for Palestine based on equal rights in a unitary state.

Who is gonig to pay for this and what makes you think they would accept the presence of foreign troops on their soil ?

 

[Rhys]

Maybe you should have thought this out, Rhys, back when you helped the Nazis exterminate Jews...how many Jews are dead because your people helped the Nazis? I'm guessing it's a bit higher than the deaths you are attributing to the Israelis. And since the Nazis lost, your people lost as well.

Poor Ravi. It is okay to be a parrot, if that's what you want to be, but where's the joy in being a half-witted parrot? The racist state that calls itself 'Israel' has extremely little to do with the Jews the nazis murdered, and my family was, of course, very actively anti-Hitler at a time when it mattered, unlike the ancestors of the present American Israel-backers, who were pretty solidly in favour of the Fuhrer. Thinking it over, you sound more like the sheep in 1984. 'Auntie C might! Baa baa baa!' And bah to you too, you silly old chorusbleater!

 

[editec]

Beautiful posting, editec. Do take care, or we shall be having a civilized discussion around here!

Oh, I think we're mostly safe from that happening.

I think that the key to the problem will come, as in the Six Counties, when the most extreme elements on either side can get to talk seriously to one another.

I was given to believe that the Northern Irish question didn't really start to get solved until the non-activists (Catholic and Protestant women mostly) finally got so freaking fed up with the juvenile delinquints and criminals hiding behind that mask of orange or green patriotism, that they stood up and said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Either stop blowing up pubs in our names or know that the people you claim to be working for are YOUR ENEMIES.

On the model of Ireland I dread, otherwise, the hundreds of years of bloody pay-back that will be required for what's been done.

700 years of exploitation and occupation tends to cause some hard feelings, I suppose. One hundred years and counting in that land called Israel by some and Palestine by others.

Nothing is more frightening than good boys and girs who believe (and exaggerate) their parents version of the past - and I've spend a good deal of time talking to Irish-Americans and, indeed, the odd IRA volunteer, discovering that.

Me too. I actually love Irish Americans, for the most part, having lived in Boston for well over a decade. Why I remember back when the Plough and Stars in Cambridge was always a good place to find some American-Irish patriot who could find you that fully automatic weapon to complete your collection.

In these circumstances it is a great mistake to know some history - it tends to spoil the party entirely.

Yes, history done well does tends to put the lie to the excesses of zealots of every stripe, doesn't it? Now wonder few of us are not welcome in polite company. We keep raining on their parades and calling it ...rain.

I strive for the Old Testament Prophet note mostly, hoping it may remind people of where they're coming from. It'll get me lynched in the finish, I'm afraid. But, me, I don't mind being buried in France.

Being buried in France probably isn't so bad... as long as you're already dead, of course. Jim Morrison doesn't seem to mind.

 

[editec]

Nice little bit of revisionism to support your agenda. The League of Nations partitioned Palestine, a state within Transjordan, a puppet nation of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman's were on the losing side of a war. Too bad for them. And too bad for any the Ottoman puppets. By the rules of the day, to the victor went the spoils.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the ARABS of the TransJordan worked WITH the victors against the Ottoman; that they were guaranteed the right to self determination; that they were guaranteed that a Zionist State would NOT be founded in Palestine.

You knew this, right?

The Israelis/Jews would probably argue that "no one is the better or the safer for its existence" comment.

I'd say that is a pretty safe bet.

There also is no "may succeed in reviving the anti-Jewish feeling ..." When did it ever fully go away? The fall of the Third Reich only brought about an end to the open extermination of a people based on their religion.

True again.

This board alone has more than a couple of people who represent a mindest that villfies and twists Israel defending itself as if they should just march into the Red Sea and make all the Jew-haters happy.

It does.

I'll go a bit further that you did, and suggest to you that some people here are not interested in the issue of Isreal, so much as they are in using this issue as a platform to remind people that they hate Jews regardless of it.

Israel exists. It isn't going away. The entire ME will be destroyed before that happens, and in that destruction, so too will the rest of world go from the fallout.

Now, is that a lament or a promise? Hard to tell.

So while you want to sit here acting as if you have a finger on the problem at the intellectual level, you forgot to include reality in your hypothesis.

Reality...it's so elusive to humankind.

It must exist, but none of us, NONE OF US, have a handle on it, epistemologically speaking.

It would help, I think, if we're going to keep going to the well of history to discuss this issue, if we could at least find a list of events and facts about it that we can all agree are probably true.

It would save us a lot of time.

Then our debates might read thus

As you know because of #17, number #19 happened, so naturally the _____________'s felt justified in doing # 35 to the __________s.

I'm only half kidding, you know.

Until there's enough shared reality surround any issue, having any kind of meaningful discussion of it is futile.

 

[Rhys]

I do not think it is racist, or immoral. I just think it is a bad Idea that will lead to more violence on both sides, not less.

Evil begets evil, I think: the IRA campaign in the Six Counties and Britain was - from one point of view - entirely justifiable. Who gave the Pope the right to give Ireland to the King of England or any English/Scottish government the right to settle foreigners on Irish land, and kill, kill, kill? So fight to the death! The Orange resistance was also justifiable: they are wanting to impose their religion on us, the Protestant population of the Republic has fallen from 13% to 6% since Independence, and they will kill, kill, kill us, those animals, for even remembering our war dead. So, backs to the wall, and fight to the death! It will, however (they discover after years of killing) be difficult to exterminate the Protestant minority in Ireland or the Roman Catholic minority in the Six counties. Let us have two states, then!

That didn't work and it never will. 'You have stolen my beloved childhood home!' 'You have stolen the holy places where our heroes fell!' We shall fight to the death till they are returned!

One State, agreed by all, with equal rights for all. What else could conceivably work?

 

[Rhys]

I was given to believe that the Northern Irish question didn't really start to get solved until the non-activists (Catholic and Protestant women mostly) finally got so freaking fed up with the juvenile delinquints and criminals hiding behind that mask of orange or green patriotism, that they stood up and said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Either stop blowing up pubs in our names or know that the people you claim to be working for are YOUR ENEMIES.

It helped,but the key thing was that the War was at a stalemate. Neither the Social Democrats and the Official Unionists. however, could ever make a deal, because they could always be attacked from a more extreme position on their own side (the key to Republican survival from the Treaty on,incidentally, a peculiar version of Divine right). Once ambitious Democratic Unionist and Sinn Fein politicians were in charge, their Will to Power became one with the popular will for peace, and the killing could, at last, stop.

 

[editec]

I do not think it is racist, or immoral. I just think it is a bad Idea that will lead to more violence on both sides, not less.

I can sign on to that, too.

A single state would be a great idea if the Jews and Palestinains didn't hate one another.

Ain't gonna happen, though.

But two VIABLE states are needed, and I see NO way that is going to happen the way the PA is set up now, either.

 

[editec]

Lebanon is no Disney World, don't get me wrong. But look at the country's civil war (in my opinion the most complicated conflict to understand politically), and look at the country's history since 1990. Its not great, but its much better. Taif brought all these people together in a power sharing agreement and while Lebanon still has tons of issues, Palestinian refugees still on the list, its a lot better than 25 years ago. Its not utopia but if the Palestinians and Israelis could get along even as well as Lebanon's Shiites and Maronites, it might seem damn near that in comparison to the greater part of the last 60 years.

Asute observation.

But Lebanon got drawn into the mess because of the Palestian refugees who used that state as the base to attack Israel.

The Lebanaese government at the time was in no way supporting those actions, but eventually teh Isrealis got tired of it and so they invaded Lebanaon, thus destabilizing the delicate balance that nation had, too.

What a remarkable bad idea was to create a colony for Europes Jews to take over that area.

Can't blame the Zionists for wanting their ancient homeland back, of course, and I credit most of the early Zionists for understanding that they needed to integrate themselves into that place, if for no other reason than to not screw it up for the indiginous Jewish population that had been there all along

Sadly, the events that unfolded in Europe post 1918 made those best laid plans go terribly astray.

 

[editec]

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

Some things are just worth repeating.

Perhaps if we say them enough it will get through the heads of those sitting on the fence.

Of course, I have no hope that it make a tinkers damn difference to those who are ethnocentrically disposed to take one side over the other.

 

[Shogun]

An international community that, ironically, can fathom a "NATURAL DESIRE FOR SEGREGATION", dude?


read any good quotes lately?

 

[roomy]

Evil begets evil, I think: the IRA campaign in the Six Counties and Britain was - from one point of view - entirely justifiable. Who gave the Pope the right to give Ireland to the King of England or any English/Scottish government the right to settle foreigners on Irish land, and kill, kill, kill? So fight to the death! The Orange resistance was also justifiable: they are wanting to impose their religion on us, the Protestant population of the Republic has fallen from 13% to 6% since Independence, and they will kill, kill, kill us, those animals, for even remembering our war dead. So, backs to the wall, and fight to the death! It will, however (they discover after years of killing) be difficult to exterminate the Protestant minority in Ireland or the Roman Catholic minority in the Six counties. Let us have two states, then!

That didn't work and it never will. 'You have stolen my beloved childhood home!' 'You have stolen the holy places where our heroes fell!' We shall fight to the death till they are returned!

One State, agreed by all, with equal rights for all. What else could conceivably work?

And from anther point of view Britain would have been justified in dropping bombs on Northern Ireland, you fucking idiot.

 

[Charles_Main]

I can sign on to that, too.

A single state would be a great idea if the Jews and Palestinains didn't hate one another.

Ain't gonna happen, though.

But two VIABLE states are needed, and I see NO way that is going to happen the way the PA is set up now, either.

I agree 100%, I would add that it may require an international force to keep the 2 parties apart, and too keep both states viable. I would like to see Israel returned to the 67 Borders, and a the nation of Palestine set up in the west bank and gaza. However I would agree this is not likely to happen with the current leadership or Both Israel and the Palestinians.

 

[Shogun]

as if whites and blacks didn't HATE one another.


get over yourselves and your rationalized segregation. It's still racism.