Why I dont post here

[José]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Israel will never allow an international force. Never.

You're a "crypto-racist", dillo.

The only reason you don't come out of the closet is because of the current climate in America where racism is not socially acceptable.

As you say, racism in 21st century America is not "kosher".

But if someday America herds its entire black and hispanic population in Florida and declares it an independent state I'm sure you'll be here giving your enthusiastic support.

Sorry if I'm more frank than I should be.

But to paraphrase good, old Barry "I love you just the way you are, buddy".

 

[dilloduck]

You're a "crypto-racist", dillo.

The only reason you don't come out of the closet is because of the current climate in America where racism is not socially acceptable.

As you say, racism in 21st century America is not "kosher".

But if someday America herds its entire black and hispanic population in Florida and declares it an independent state I'm sure you'll be here giving your enthusiastic support.

Sorry if I'm more frank than I should be.

But to paraphrase good, old Barry "I love you just the way you are, buddy".

Crypto-racist ? Have you been reading some shit at the library ?? I just said Israel (the country) will not accept an international force. Do you think they will ?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Charles Main
and what in gods name makes you think either state would accept a single state solution?

Chuck

I will soon create a thread covering all the major issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Wait and see.

 

[José]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Do you think they will ?

I don't know if this is gonna be the couse History will follow, dillo.

The "fast track" way: the dismantlement of Israel and the establishment of an international protectorate.

Or the "slow track" way: Israel's gradual evolution from a jewish "demographic" state to a state of citizens.

Either way, the end result will be the same.

 

[Charles_Main]

Chuck

I will soon create a thread covering all the major issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Wait and see.

I will be holding on with baited breath.......












NOT!!!

 

[José]

Originally posted by Charles Main
I will be holding on with baited breath.......

LOL,

I came to the conclusion that I just can't postpone the mega thread I've been planning for so long, Chuck.

The level of knowledge about the palestinian people displayed by the members of the board, including you, is unbelievably low.

Just take a look at Epsilon Delta's post, for example. He simply doesn't understand that a palestinian who accepts the ethnic cleansing of western palestine may just as well go live in Baghdad because he's not a palestinian anymore.

Delta, buddy, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to be an expert on the greek alphabet but you're totally clueless about the palestinian people.

 

[Charles_Main]

LOL,

I came to the conclusion that I just can postpone the mega thread I've been planning for so long, Chuck.

The level of knowledge about the palestinian people displayed by the members of the board, including you, is unbelievably low.

Just take a look at Epsilon Delta's post, for example. He simply doesn't understand that a palestinian who accepts the ethnic cleansing of western palestine may just as well go live in Baghdad because he's not a palestinian anymore.

Delta, buddy, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to be an expert on the greek alphabet but you're totally clueless about the palestinian people.

And your level of Ignorance concerning Israel and the Israeli people is just as bad.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

LOL,

I came to the conclusion that I just can't postpone the mega thread I've been planning for so long, Chuck.

The level of knowledge about the palestinian people displayed by the members of the board, including you, is unbelievably low.

Just take a look at Epsilon Delta's post, for example. He simply doesn't understand that a palestinian who accepts the ethnic cleansing of western palestine may just as well go live in Baghdad because he's not a palestinian anymore.

Delta, buddy, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to be an expert on the greek alphabet but you're totally clueless about the palestinian people.

I don't accept the ethnic cleansing of any place, José. If anyone is clueless here it's you. (Ok, I lie, most of us are pretty clueless here). The PA and most of the arab world have stated that the conditions for peace are a two-state solution, an independent state of Palestine with no Israeli settlements and no walls inside Palestine, with Palestinian control of
Palestinian water resources.
I mean, seriously, anyone who denies that Palestinians want THEIR OWN STATE doesn't have a clue, whether it be the rightist extremists who support the occupation or these people (whom I didn't even know existed) that refuse to recognize that a free and independent Palestine based on 1967 borders would be the prefered choice of most Palestinians.

The plan consists of a proposal to end the Arab-Israeli conflict. It offers Israel normalization of relations and comprehensive peace agreements with Arab countries in exchange for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the Occupied Territories including the Golan Heights, and the recognition of "an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital," as well as a "just solution" for the Palestinian refugees.[1]

The initiative is based upon:

-The principle of Land for peace.
-The conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties.

The goals of the initiative are:

Full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967
Implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions 242 and 338.
The establishment of an independent Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital
A just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem, to be agreed upon in accordance with section 11 of UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
The normalization of relations in the context of a comprehensive peace.

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Arab Peace Inititative

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 338 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Pretty much the same thing as above)

Generalmente estoy de acuerdo con usted en la mayoría de los casos, pero no en este. La verdad es que los Israelitas no pueden seguir despedazando a Palestina y la única manera de hacerlo es que Palestina sea un estado soverano.

 

[Reality]

Israel will never allow an international force. Never.

Then they can deal with the Iran treatment. Sanctions, international isolation, imports stopped, exports stopped.

Oh wait, that's only for Muslims.

 

[Reality]

the ideals of HAMAS and ISLAMIC JIHAD: the establishment of a muslim theocratic state in Palestine where the jewish population will be protected as “guests” of the islamic state.

Hamas has stated it will accept any agreement passed by a referendum of the Palestinian people and stated while it held office in the PA that it does not seek to coerce, but instead encourage, Palestinians to live in accordance with Islamic principles. I'm not sure that moderate tone persists.

 

[editec]

ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY WRONG, editec.

Damn! I was really trying to go for absolutely, but not totally wrong.

Partisans are people who support the continued existence of a jewish racial dictatorship in Western Palestine that keeps the palestinian people herded like cattle in Gaza and the West Bank. These people “are ethnocentrically disposed to take the jewish side”.

Ahhhh, yeah!

Partisans are people who support the ideals of HAMAS and ISLAMIC JIHAD: the establishment of a muslim theocratic state in Palestine where the jewish population will be protected as “guests” of the islamic state. The jewish people do not want to live under islamic theocratic rule and I support them 100%. These people “are ethnocentrically disposed to take the arab side”.

Okaaaay, with you so far.

People who support the establishment of a non confessional state with equal rights for all peoples who call Palestine their homeland ARE NOT PARTISANS BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

Not sure what a "non-confessional state" means, Jose, but as it regards this issue I think that partisans can be described as the all or nothing Arabs or Jewish positions we both recognize as the problem.

Much on the contrary, these individuals are the only ones who can be called impartial and moderate people.

Oh, I get it. You thought I was calling you an ARAB partisan or something, didn't you?

Well.. you do seem to be a partisan for a just society in that region, Jose.but you should know already that so am I.

How to arrive at that , is the crux of the problem

Contrary to popular belief, radicals are the ones who justify jewish supremacist on the palestinian people through the denial of the right of return OR palestinian supremacism on the jewish people through the establishment of an islamic theocratic state.

Oh I suspect that sanity about this issue, is fairly common except in places like this, where keyboard warriors vent their bile and frustration, Jose.

A LOT of people want justice for both the Jews and the Arabs, amigo. More than half the poulation, I suspect, regardless of party or poltical philosophy.

Moderates and impartial observers are people who support a democratic state with equal rights for jews and arabs alike.

Yeah, and in the Mid East, those seeking just solutions probably nearly completely marginalized from power, too.

Blessed are the peacemakers for theirs shall be the kingdom of heaven (and probably fairly soon, too since they're always targeted for destruction by everyone with an axe to grind nearly everywhere on earth)

I strongly urge you to reconsider your definition of impartiality, editec.

Well, okay.

The moment you actually understand what my definition of impartiality is, I'll be happy to reconsider it.

Jose, you are kind of punchdrunk from battling with partisans in this place, too, that's obvious.

The fucking trolls here (those people who like to pit people agin' one aother, I mean, not the real partisans who are honestly committed to their causes) really do TRY to keep the discussion from being real and attacking anyone who is honest is their modus operandi.

How do they do that?

They post whatever the hell they think will inflame the passions of the partisans, and the mischaracterize what non-partisans are saying to enflame everyone's passions, too.

I wasn't on this board for more than a week before I was labeled and anti-semite, a socialist, and a liberal. Based on what?

Based on jumped conclusions from punchdrunk players, that's what.

And those mislabeling are from people who I believe are honest players but who assume that because something I wrote doesn't exactly jibe with their EXACT opinions I must therefore believe BLA BLA BLA, too.

None of us (but the trolls) are cardboard cut-outs of people, sport.

Complex issues like these have nuances, shadings, sublteties and sticking to what is written is the ONLY way to know what people think.

Those of us who are honest plays here have got to stop leaping to conclusions about what the others think based on the mythical creatures that have been implanted in our heads from YEARS OF PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE ENEMY.

Just a thought, of course.

Discussing things honestly isn't nearly so much fun as imagining that we're on the side of good and anyone who disagrees is a monster.

oh yeah. one more thing.

I am impressed how many apparently decent people there are here TRYING to have have honest discussions. TRYING to wade throught he thoughless hateful bullshit that some people post at them for no other reason than to YANK THEIR CHAINS.

Dismiss them, or ignore those obvious shitheads.

Responding in kind is what they want.

 

[Shogun]

You orchard arguement making motherfuckers and your "it's not the same, wahh wahh" copout ARE the reason there is still a conflict in that area. If you don't think SOME blacks wnated segregation as well as white you need to go read something. I suggest Colored People by Henry Louis Gates. You seem to think that ALL jews or ALL arabs refuse to live together. Meanwhile, and I hope the irony hasn't been missed so far on you Chuck, IF you insist that three seperate iraqi factions WORK TOGETHER TO FORM A SINGLE STATE as if THEY have gotten along any better than israel and pal, than whites and blacks.

Indeed, you all are intellectual failures and have bend over for the sake of your own rationalized prejudices. Your assumptions are no better than Strom Thruman's. Your resolve is no better than Governor Wallace. If your only reply is some goofy fucking "But it's DIFFERNET" then you have failed both yourself as critically thinking individuals and THEM despite your own history.

 

[Shogun]

And, EDITIC, im not letting you off the hook, buddy. I'll repost the quotes even if you dont respond. You wanna play peacemaker? You wanna bridge a gap? You can't run away from the exact reflecting that your opinion here has with the LAST bunch of racist fiends who insisted that cultural segregation "is only natural".


Indeed, go ask William Joyce if he agrees with you. What do you think his answer will be.

 

[Rhys]

700 years of exploitation and occupation tends to cause some hard feelings, I suppose. One hundred years and counting in that land called Israel by some and Palestine by others.

I think they've managed to get a fair bit more oppression into that first hundred years, and far more unequally. After all, Irish-speakers had previously taken over control of Scotland and of two Welsh counties before Norman adventurers got in on the act, and it was when the question became religious that there were land-grabs and foreign settlement in Ireland, whereas in Palestine it started with that.

Me too. I actually love Irish Americans, for the most part, having lived in Boston for well over a decade. Why I remember back when the Plough and Stars in Cambridge was always a good place to find some American-Irish patriot who could find you that fully automatic weapon to complete your collection.

I have drunk with all kinds of overseas Irish in all sorts of places, and had a great deal of fun, until the drink taken begins to turn sour, at which it is as well to make one's excuses and be off. I was once pinned in a corner by a strange being of about five feet tall and eight feet wide, who wanted me to prove myself NOT to be an English Government spy. This I had to do by pronouncing 'Llanelli' correctly. I have, of course, no trouble with this task, but his hearing was not of the best, and it was touch and go there awhile!

Yes, history done well does tends to put the lie to the excesses of zealots of every stripe, doesn't it? Now wonder few of us are not welcome in polite company. We keep raining on their parades and calling it ...rain.[/I

The frightening thing, though, is that enthusiasts take any attempt to put them right as aggressive in the extreme - and that the emotive 'facts' are so muddled . To leave Ireland and Palestine out of the discussion I give an example from my own Country. Patriotism here tends to turn mainly on language - from the Annexation of 1536 for a fairly long period, English governments attempted to force us to speak English, while, fair play, also having translated the Bible and the Prayer Book into our language, which in fact saved Cymraeg, making it 'the Language of Heaven'. The mass of people manful (and womanfully?) resisted their bullying, and it was only in the Twentieth Century that the majority became monoglot English.

Quite separately, in the Nineteenth Century, it became evident that, in the United Kingdom, only English speakers were going to Get On. Realising this, a small minority of our people left for Chobut, but a high proportion of those who remained wanted their children to learn English as a second language, and one of the measures favoured was the 'Welsh Not', where anyone speaking the Language had a board hung around his neck until he (she?) could point to another malefactor, the one wearing the thing at the end of the day being caned. Well, if I'd learned my Latin that way, it would probable be a great deal better than it is, I suppose.

The point of this long ramble is that this teaching-method was, at worst, the invention of particular teachers rather than the English Government, and in general many parents were all for it. Nobody is alive now who was subjected to this either. You should hear the way people talk about it though! They firmly believe it was part of an English plan to destroy us. I once gave a lift to some Swedish students who'd visited the National Eisteddfod and been told about it as it it were still going on: they were all for finding some passing Englishman and beating the hell out of him. My own Father, in his cups, had access to some time machine that took him back to those days, though the school he attended was in fact run by his Welsh-speaking Father, and taught it to all its pupils! Dad could still get bitter, however.

MY point is that, if so much rage can be created by such muddled History here, imagine what will be the results of the very, very real grievances of the highly talented and ethnically-cleansed Palestinians! That is why I'm sure, whatever the opinion of the participants, that a two-state solution is unworkable: every unemployed teenage idealist would be forever ready to strike back at the thieving, bullying swine, as in Ireland. I wish some of our more idiotic zionist contributors could be make to sing 'The Patriot Game' in full before going into rant, really I do.

Being buried in France probably isn't so bad... as long as you're already dead, of course. Jim Morrison doesn't seem to mind.

I have never tried it - as far as I know!

 

[editec]

I will be holding on with baited breath.......












NOT!!!

Good choice.

Putting bait in your mouth seems highly unsanitary.

FYI:

bated adj 1: held back; "we watched the daring feats of the acrobats with bated breath" 2: diminished or moderated; "our bated enthusiasm"; "his bated hopes"</PRE><!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[José]

Originally posted by Epsilon Delta
I don't accept the ethnic cleansing of any place, José. If anyone is clueless here it's you. (Ok, I lie, most of us are pretty clueless here). The PA and most of the arab world have stated that the conditions for peace are a two-state solution, an independent state of Palestine with no Israeli settlements and no walls inside Palestine, with Palestinian control of Palestinian water resources.

I mean, seriously, anyone who denies that Palestinians want THEIR OWN STATE doesn't have a clue, whether it be the rightist extremists who support the occupation or these people (whom I didn't even know existed) that refuse to recognize that a free and independent Palestine based on 1967 borders would be the prefered choice of most Palestinians.

Have you ever heard Netanyahu&#8217; fantastic phrase, Delta?

&#8220;The Palestinians say one thing in English and another thing in Arabic.&#8221;

The PA is not a functional state/government, Delta, they depend on western donations to feed their people and they know exactly what the West wants to hear them saying.

I have 60 years of miserable failure of the 2 states solution to back up my claim that a palestinian arab cannot renounce their right to live in western Palestine and still be a palestinian.

What do you have to back up yours?

The empty rhetoric of a starving third world people begging the West for money.

I hope someday you understand that the palestinian cause is not about Jerusalem, &#8220;viable states&#8221;, a few inches of land here, a few inches of land there.

The palestinian cause is about the right of a displaced people to live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.

Originally posted by Epsilon Delta
Generalmente estoy de acuerdo con usted en la mayoría de los casos, pero no en este. La verdad es que los Israelitas no pueden seguir despedazando a Palestina y la única manera de hacerlo es que Palestina sea un estado soverano.

Excellent Spanish. You "sound" like a native.

If only my English were that good.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
The moment you actually understand what my definition of impartiality is, I'll be happy to reconsider it.

Jose, you are kind of punchdrunk from battling with partisans in this place, too, that's obvious.

The fucking trolls here (those people who like to pit people agin' one aother, I mean, not the real partisans who are honestly committed to their causes) really do TRY to keep the discussion from being real and attacking anyone who is honest is their modus operandi.

How do they do that?

They post whatever the hell they think will inflame the passions of the partisans, and the mischaracterize what non-partisans are saying to enflame everyone's passions, too.

I wasn't on this board for more than a week before I was labeled and anti-semite, a socialist, and a liberal. Based on what?

Based on jumped conclusions from punchdrunk players, that's what.

And those mislabeling are from people who I believe are honest players but who assume that because something I wrote doesn't exactly jibe with their EXACT opinions I must therefore believe BLA BLA BLA, too.

None of us (but the trolls) are cardboard cut-outs of people, sport.

Complex issues like these have nuances, shadings, sublteties and sticking to what is written is the ONLY way to know what people think.

Those of us who are honest plays here have got to stop leaping to conclusions about what the others think based on the mythical creatures that have been implanted in our heads from YEARS OF PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE ENEMY.

Just a thought, of course.

Discussing things honestly isn't nearly so much fun as imagining that we're on the side of good and anyone who disagrees is a monster.

oh yeah. one more thing.

I am impressed how many apparently decent people there are here TRYING to have have honest discussions. TRYING to wade throught he thoughless hateful bullshit that some people post at them for no other reason than to YANK THEIR CHAINS.

Dismiss them, or ignore those obvious shitheads.

Responding in kind is what they want.

Ok then, editec.

You sound like a fair-minded western guy who sincerely still believes that someday in the future the palestinian people will drop their demand to live in Western Palestine.

Nothing I can say to you on the Internet will change your mind.

Only the passage of time will finally convince you (or your children, grandchildren) that the right to live in Western Palestine is the essence of the palestinian national consciousness.

 

[Charles_Main]

Good choice.

Putting bait in your mouth seems highly unsanitary.

FYI:

bated adj 1: held back; "we watched the daring feats of the acrobats with bated breath" 2: diminished or moderated; "our bated enthusiasm"; "his bated hopes"</PRE><!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Oh my I miss spelled a word, I am so sorry

 

[Charles_Main]

You sound like a fair-minded western guy who sincerely still believes that someday in the future the palestinian people will drop their demand to live in Western Palestine.

I think the fact that you insist on calling it Western Palestine, when the international community, and the UN all agree it is Israel, and have made it so legally, is all the evidence we need to know where your biases are on this issue.

I on the other hand, am called a Zionist all the time, yet I have never once called the west bank Eastern Israel. The Palestinian people want their own state, they do not want to share a country with the Jews. If you force them to live together, the Palestinians will not all of the sudden decide to get along with the Jews, they will continue to attack them, and eventually drive them all out of the Area. I have a feeling you would love to see that happen.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Have you ever heard Netanyahu’ fantastic phrase, Delta?

“The Palestinians say one thing in English and another thing in Arabic.”

The PA is not a functional state/government, Delta, they depend on western donations to feed their people and they know exactly what the West wants to hear them saying.

I have 60 years of miserable failure of the 2 states solution to back up my claim that a palestinian arab cannot renounce their right to live in western Palestine and still be a palestinian.

What do you have to back up yours?

The empty rhetoric of a starving third world people begging the West for money.

I hope someday you understand that the palestinian cause is not about Jerusalem, “viable states”, a few inches of land here, a few inches of land there.

The palestinian cause is about the right of a displaced people to live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.



Excellent Spanish. You "sound" like a native.

If only my English were that good.

Uh, is that why even the HAMAS spokesman endorsed the plan?

Hamas would accept Saudi peace plan, spokesman says / Group would stop attacks on Israelis if occupation ends

Hamas' spokesman Ismail Abu Shanab said on the same day that his organisation would accept the initiative:

"That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis."

Not exactly known for being western puppets, I'd say. And besides, it was UNANIMOUSLY accepted by all the arab governments. It's their peace plan, the Arab League Peace plan. It recalls the UN Resolutions agreed to by virtually the entire world except obviously Israel and the US. who support the bantustan-type settlements cut up in Israeli walls within Palestine and riddled with checkpoints. I mean, I guess it is admirable that you have so much faith in Israelis to think that they'll give arabs equal rights when all the far-right wing of even this board support the brutality with which they treat Palestine. As for the 'failure of a two-state solution for 60 years', it doesn't make any sense- there ISN'T a two-state status now, there's always been a brutal occupation of Palestine and until that occupation ends peace isn't going to come. If anything's clear is that a one state solution has failed over and over again and that's cristal clear in light of daily human rights abuses against Palestine under the israeli government in Jerusalem.

Ah y gracias, pero la verdad es que mi lengua nativa ES español. Soy costarricense, o 'tico'.