Why I dont post here

[Epsilon Delta]

Black Panthers also wanted segregated black communities. so what. What does that have to do with the REST of the blacks who may not fall into that easy shopping cart? Fuck them, right? THEY don't matter since picking a convenient representation that fits your desire for segregation facilitates a racist two state solution?


good job.


Read any good STROM THURMAN QUOTES LATELY?

So now the Black Panther Party is on the same footing as Strom Thurman? Look, man, if there had been a serious proposal by the political leadership of the black community and supported by the majority of blacks to separate from the US entirely and become it's own independent state in order to escape the abusive racism and brutality of Southern White America, I would've been right there with them too. Similarly, until Israel commits itself to removing the walls inside Palestine, release the Palestinians from the oppressive checkpoint regime, cease land-grabs and home demolitions, and in general committing war crimes against the Palestinians I see absolutely no reason to expect palestinians to suck it up in the name of 'Multiculturalism'. This analogy you keep pushing comparing it to the situation in the South has absolutely 0 basis in fact. With that reasoning then the Czech Republic and Slovakia are both racist states, East Timor is a racist state, and all the former Soviet Republics are racist states, Ireland is a racist state, etc.The case in Palestine-Israel is different than that in the US. In one instance the oppressors stole the oppresed as property, totally uprooted them from their homeland, destroyed their culture, erased any memory of it, and treated them like property for hundreds of years, effectively making them inseparable from the country that oppressed them. In the other, the oppressor was an invading force that has taken complete control over a large area and militarily occupies the other, which treats those it occupies, well, unspeakably bad. If the majority of Palestinians and their leadership are in favor of having their own independent state, then go ahead, self determination and democracy, like the West has always preached.

 

[editec]

Indeed, you make the same argument, once again, that white people in the south made during the civil rights era.

What are you talking about?

If you're going to fault me for what I posted, please be kind enough to quote the posts I've written that support your charge.

Avoid the realization of the similarity of your position to strom's if you wanna.. but thats just a copout.

Who is Strom?

Do you also rationalize SOUTH AFRICA's excuses for aparthied with the "but blacks are the majority here" excuse too or does that all of a sudden become a statement you refuse to acknowledge?

You're confusing "rationalizing", for "describing", I think.

I can describe what I believe is the mindset of the NAZIs without rationalizing it. I can proabably describe the mindset of a whole host of people or organziations without rationalizing those people or their positions.

What motivated Ghanges Khan? Does describing his motivations necessarily mean I am a fan of his?

I've quoted you making the same excuse for a two state solution.

Yes, I see now that is exactly what you are doing.

Call it antisemitic if you need to. Your own posts are exactly why it's easy to lampoon your position.

I haven't called you an anti-semite. Again, imagining that you know what I think, while at the same time ignoring what I have said is goofy.

I AM telling you that you are a very confused person.

I am not having much the same kind of problem with you, now, that I have had with Jillian. She ALSO decided that she knew me by what I did NOT say.

Since I can describe what I think is motivating one side or the other to take their positions, I must therefore SUPPORT those mindsets.

Apparently, you cannot differentiate my positions, which I think I've described in some detail, from my posts where I might be responding to some other point. Read me in CONTEXT, amigo, and stop leaping to conclusions.

YOu need to calm down, and stop thinking that every time someone doesn't come down on something you object to, that they must therefore be supporting that thing you object to.

In fact a LOT of people (regardless of their positions) have to calm down if we want to have an intelligent discussion of this issue.

In order to find a solution, the first thing one must do is understand what the other person is saying, AND what is motivating them.

 

[Rhys]

LOL, to rich.

Look bud people call it Israel because the United nations made it legally so. Your views on the subject are totally one sided and silly if you ask me, but as Jillian said, You can not be educated on the subject so why try.

If the UN is God, why don't the zionists obey its resolutions? As to educating me, no, don't bother, since you have no arguments to offer. I am quite educated already.

 

[Care4all]

The Am Indians are the EXACT example that shows exactly the problem with rationalized ethnic expansion.. Then again, i am absolutely certain that your kind wont have the slightest tear to shed for the extinction of pals similar to what we saw when OUR natives refused to back down... But hey, wounded knee was just another example of terrorism, im sure.

YEP ole wise one, and because of it, you can mouth off as you do right now on this message board....hmmmmm, maybe we should just give it all back to the indians....let them take the riches we have developed over the last few centuries, all because they lost the battle a few hundred years ago.....they deserve ALL that our country has grown in to, right shogie?

 

[Shogun]

"The same footing" ?


WHAT DOMINATED population is EVER on "the same footing"? Name ONE. I dare you. There WERE a population of blacks during the civil rights era that WANTED their own segregation from whites just as the dominant white WANTED segregation from blacks. Does this validate American Segregation? Not in my mind. If YOU can rationlize segregation in israel then why can't you do the same for Ole Strom and Wallace's opinion? You can't without insisting that, somehow, israel is "apples to oranges" to every other historic example of a dominant minority population making excuses for segregation. Point in case: South Africa. We didn't listen to that shit after Nelson Mandela, an admitted guerilla terrorist, was helped to end a racist state system that prefered whites over blacks for the sake of "keeping the peace". If you can't apply the same standard to isreal then your logic falls on its face. Again, IM the one posting quotes from white southerners making the same case for preserving WHITE America as my opposition here makes for keeping a JEWISH israel. Insisting that there is no comparison by accusation of antisemitism is laughable. In this case, we are truly repeating a history lesson that we refuse to learn.

 

[Rhys]

If the majority of Palestinians and their leadership are in favor of having their own independent state, then go ahead, self determination and democracy, like the West has always preached.

The problem is, it ALL belongs to them. If a gangster steals your house, would you be content to be allowed an attic? A single state is very imperfect, but it avoids this problem. You and the gangster live together, each of you has fixed rights, and eventually all get used to it. History is full of examples. Why would anyone be satisfied with a dry patch in his own garden?

 

[Care4all]

LOL, to rich.

Look bud people call it Israel because the United nations made it legally so. Your views on the subject are totally one sided and silly if you ask me, but as Jillian said, You can not be educated on the subject so why try.

I think it was the League of Nations which then became the UN later on, no?

either way, your point is spot on....

Care

 

[Care4all]

The problem is, it ALL belongs to them. If a gangster steals your house, would you be content to be allowed an attic? A single state is very imperfect, but it avoids this problem. You and the gangster live together, and eventually all get used to it. History is full of examples. Why would anyone be satisfied with a dry patch in his own garden?

no ne stole their house....the Palestinians had a choice to get their own state at the same time the league of nations made israel, but they CHOSE NOT TO ACCEPT IT....

learn a little bit about history kiddo....then they lost other land after that thru WARRING....the arabs attacked israel in the 6 day war...and lost their butts...

 

[Ravi]

What if the Pals became Jews, would they get full citizenship or would their children?

 

[Reality]

YEP ole wise one, and because of it, you can mouth off as you do right now on this message board....hmmmmm, maybe we should just give it all back to the indians....let them take the riches we have developed over the last few centuries, all because they lost the battle a few hundred years ago.....they deserve ALL that our country has grown in to, right shogie?

1492 and 1948 have the same meaning?

 

[Shogun]

What are you talking about?
If you're going to fault me for what I posted, please be kind enough to quote the posts I've written that support your charge.

I can do just that. I quoted you when you made the statements but you, uh, chose to pretend to be Pavlov or something. Im sure you will avoid this quote as well.

lemme dig it up.



Who is Strom?

The white people of the South are the greatest minority in this nation. They deserve consideration and understanding instead of the persecution of twisted propaganda.
Strom Thurmond

I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigra race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches.
Strom Thurman

Thurmond supported racial segregation with the longest filibuster ever conducted by a single Senator, speaking for 24 hours and 18 minutes in an unsuccessful attempt to derail the Civil Rights Act of 1957. Other Southern Senators, who had agreed as part of a compromise not to filibuster this bill, were upset with Thurmond because they thought his defiance made them look bad to their constituents.[5]

Strom Thurmond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You're confusing "rationalizing", for "describing", I think.

I can describe what I believe is the mindset of the NAZIs without rationalizing it. I can proabably describe the mindset of a whole host of people or organziations without rationalizing those people or their positions.

What motivated Ghanges Khan? Does describing his motivations necessarily mean I am a fan of his?

You are dancing around the nomenclature. Racists can DESCRIBE the necessity for segregation too when faces with the charge of RATIONALIZING racism.

by insisting that a single state solution would eradicate a jewish majority in israel because there are a majoirty of pals you are not DESCRIBING the situation at all outside of RATIONALIZING racism.




Yes, I see now that is exactly what you are doing.


I did originally but you chose to avoid my post. But, dont worry, ill dig it up. Im BIG on evidence around here.



I haven't called you an anti-semite. Again, imagining that you know what I think, while at the same time ignoring what I have said is goofy.

quote is on the way, homey.


I AM telling you that you are a very confused person.

and, you are a racist. see, we can both sling mud.



I am not having much the same kind of problem with you, now, that I have had with Jillian. She ALSO decided that she knew me by what I did NOT say.

Again, uno memento.. quote is coming.. lemme dig it up.



Since I can describe what I think is motivating one side or the other to take their positions, I must therefore SUPPORT those mindsets.

Hey, so could GOVERNOR WALLACE!


Apparently, you cannot differentiate my positions, which I think I've described in some detail, from my posts where I might be responding to some other point. Read me in CONTEXT, amigo, and stop leaping to conclusions.

HA! context my ass. There really is only one way to read your excuses for a two state solution.


YOu need to calm down, and stop thinking that every time someone doesn't come down on something you object to, that they must therefore be supporting that thing you object to.

Your own words make your bed, homey.. uno momento, por favore



In fact a LOT of people (regardless of their positions) have to calm down if we want to have an intelligent discussion of this issue.

yea, meanwhile ratonalized racism plays out much in the same way it took 100 fucking years after the Emancipation Proclamation to actually apply..



In order to find a solution, the first thing one must do is understand what the other person is saying, AND what is motivating them.


Indeed. and im pretty sure i've got you under my thumb..

one moment, please.

 

[Reality]

the arabs attacked israel in the 6 day war...and lost their butts...

Israel launched a "pre-emptive strike" on the Egyptian air force. That is an attack. Prior to that, Israel's southern port had been blockaded, which is an act of war, but not being "attacked." But do lecture on about how other people don't know history.

 

[Ravi]

Again, it isn't a racial thing...both groups have the same "racial" roots, for crying out loud. And any country is free to have a state religion if they so choose. I personally think the my Santa Claus is better than your Santa Claus rational is ridiculous, but it isn't my place to decide if another country can or cannot have a state religion.

 

[Care4all]

Israel launched a "pre-emptive strike" on the Egyptian air force. That is an attack. Prior to that, Israel's southern port had been blockaded, which is an act of war, but not being "attacked." But do lecture on about how other people don't know history.

YES it was an ACT OF WAR on Egypt's part, thus an attack on the country of Israel, and yes, Israel did fire on the Egyptions for this ACT OF WAR on to them....

FUNNY you neglected to include on your description of bocking the straits that Egypt also amassed 100,000 troops on their border with 1000 tanks and the likes along with shutting off the canal....

oh so smart one!

In May 1967, Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula, which had been stationed there since 1957 (following the 1956 Sinai invasion to allow for a free Suez Canal) to provide a peace-keeping buffer zone. In reaction to Israeli-Syrian tensions, Egypt amassed 1000 tanks and 100,000 soldiers on the border, closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, and called for unified Arab action against Israel.[5] In response, on June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[6] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[7][8][9] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

just love you jewish haters that ALWAYS CONVENIENTLY leave out all the facts to make the Palestinians as the innocent victim in this mess....sheesh...

And the Palestinians turning down the region mapped out for them at the same time the League OF Nations mapped out Israel and them turning this down, you chose to not comment on, i see.....?

care

 

[Shogun]

Editic quotes:

Because they don't PRETEND to be anything but a culturally ethnocentric state, perhaps?
I don't blame the Isrealis for wanting their nation to be culturally dominated by Jews.
That's why I am sympathetic to the complaint that the single state solution is unworkable.

cut to:

The PA lands are no more viable than the sham nations created by the south African aparthied government created when they were trying to find some way to deal with the Blacks.

When people call for a one state solution, one of the elements of that solution is the elimination of the vexations which are pissing off the displaced, disenfranchised, and ripped-off Palestinians.

The presumption (one that I don't necessarily agree with, incidently) is that when these noxioux elements of the current situation are no longer plaguing the majority of Palestinians, they're not likely to support terror against the Israelis.

But Isreal really cannot remove those vexing elements of its society, can it?

It cannot return the real estate stolen from the Palestinians by the Isreali goverment because there are Isrealis living on it.

Neither can the Isrealis allow the return of the millions of Palestinians and give them the same civil rights as the Jewish Isrealis because if they do, then the Jews are outnumbered by the Arabs and the nature of their Jewish State will cease to exist.

This is such a "no shit sherlock" reality, that one wonders why everyone can't instantly recognize the real problem.

You can't have a Jewish State with right of return to every Jew in the world, if the majority of citizens are Palestinians who object to the Jews there, now, and allowing more Jews from elsewhere to emmigrate into Isreal/Palestine, too.

But I can.

One doesn't have to be racist to want to live in a nation which is dominated by a particular ethnic value system.

If suddenly I found myself living someplace with wildly different values than now, I'd seek to live someplace where I felt more like I fit in.

That doesn't make me a racist. It doesn't make the jews racists, or the Arabs racists, either.

That's human nature.

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

Some things are just worth repeating.

Perhaps if we say them enough it will get through the heads of those sitting on the fence.

Of course, I have no hope that it make a tinkers damn difference to those who are ethnocentrically disposed to take one side over the other.

The real problem is not the absence of reasonable plans but the total lack of political will on the part of the international community.

Some things are just worth repeating.

Perhaps if we say them enough it will get through the heads of those sitting on the fence.

Of course, I have no hope that it make a tinkers damn difference to those who are ethnocentrically disposed to take one side over the other.

I can sign on to that, too.

A single state would be a great idea if the Jews and Palestinains didn't hate one another.

Ain't gonna happen, though.

But two VIABLE states are needed, and I see NO way that is going to happen the way the PA is set up now, either.

Here are those quotes you didn't want to respond to.. See if you comprehend how similar they are to YOUR arguements..




Segregation in the South is honest, open and aboveboard. Of the two systems, or styles of segregation, the Northern and the Southern, there is no doubt whatever in my mind which is the better.
Strom Thurmond


Segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever!
George C. Wallace

I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.
George C. Wallace


We do not show the Negro how to overcome segregation, but we teach him how to accept it as final and just.
Carter G. Woodson


And thus goes segregation which is the most far-reaching development in the history of the Negro since the enslavement of the race.
Carter G. Woodson

 

[Epsilon Delta]

"The same footing" ?


WHAT DOMINATED population is EVER on "the same footing"? Name ONE. I dare you. There WERE a population of blacks during the civil rights era that WANTED their own segregation from whites just as the dominant white WANTED segregation from blacks. Does this validate American Segregation? Not in my mind. If YOU can rationlize segregation in israel then why can't you do the same for Ole Strom and Wallace's opinion? You can't without insisting that, somehow, israel is "apples to oranges" to every other historic example of a dominant minority population making excuses for segregation. Point in case: South Africa. We didn't listen to that shit after Nelson Mandela, an admitted guerilla terrorist, was helped to end a racist state system that prefered whites over blacks for the sake of "keeping the peace". If you can't apply the same standard to isreal then your logic falls on its face. Again, IM the one posting quotes from white southerners making the same case for preserving WHITE America as my opposition here makes for keeping a JEWISH israel. Insisting that there is no comparison by accusation of antisemitism is laughable. In this case, we are truly repeating a history lesson that we refuse to learn.

FUCK, dude. What the hell?

I said "equal footing" because YOU were implying that what I was saying was what the Black Panthers were saying, and THEN you tell me to look up Strom Thurmon quotes. That didn't make any sense to me, you were comparing me to both things, HENCE the question mark. I felt it was being very obvious. What the hell kind of question is that, anyway? Where did I state that they were on the same footing? Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? Do you not understand that I am totally against the racist occupation of Palestine? THERE'S A REASON WHY I KEEP CALLING IT A RACIST OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE. BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH IT.

Again, ignoring what I said completely, there is a difference between the segregationists in America who wanted to keep a system of blacks as second-class, servile citizens within the same country, and a population that wants ITS OWN COUNTRY. Segregation is what is happening in Israel NOW because the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT is SEGREGATING the population, with Palestinians as second-class citizens. You obviously think that that's wrong, and so do I, and so I advocate for an INDEPENDENT palestine, not a racist segregationalist state like the current one. If you can't understand the simple difference between segregation and independence then the argument is obviously NEVER going to get through to you. So I ask you again, are the East Timorese RACISTS for claiming independence from Indonesia? Is the entire African continent RACIST for claiming independence from their European colonial overlords? I'm sure you'd agree that ALL former Yugoslav republics are undeniably racist for separating from Serbia. Yes, obviously all of these are racists. How dare those East Timorese be so racist as to declare Independence from Indonesia, after indonesia had done so much for them, like obliterating a third of their population. Those silly Timorese should've known better and stayed, but NO, they had to be racist segregationalists. Is that what you're saying?

The enormous difference between the South African bantustans and a 1967 Palestine is that 1967 Palestine is SUPPORTED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION. You say "Well some blacks supported segregation too!", I'm not talking about some Palestinians, I'm talking about the MAJORITY of Palestinians who favour a 2 State solution, not just 'some palestinians'. Why is that different from Strom Thurmond? That Strom Thurmond was part of the oppressors while the Palestinians are the oppressed. If the independence agreed is based on the terms established by the OPPRESSED, then who the hell am I to say that I know better? "I KNOW BETTER, WHAT YOU REALLY WANT IS TO LIVE WITH THE ISRAELIS!" Why don't you go over there and tell the majority of Palestinians (who support the two-state 1967 solution) that? That they're all a bunch of racists for wanting an independent state, and obviously you know way better than they do. [/sarcasm]

 

[Shogun]

Again, it isn't a racial thing...both groups have the same "racial" roots, for crying out loud. And any country is free to have a state religion if they so choose. I personally think the my Santa Claus is better than your Santa Claus rational is ridiculous, but it isn't my place to decide if another country can or cannot have a state religion.

What is the state religion of the US, ravi? Better yet, what is the ETHNIC CRITERIA installed to facilite the purity of those whose citizenship is based on that faith?

Law of Return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Purpose

The purpose of the Law of Return, like that of the Zionist Movement, was to provide a solution to the Jewish people's problem--to re-establish a home for the entire Jewish people in Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel. In the Law of Return, the State of Israel put into practice the Zionist Movement's "credo" as pledged in Israel's Declaration of Independence and recognized by the League of Nations in 1922, when charging Britain with the duty of establishing a Jewish National Home, and by the United Nations within the Partition Plan of 1947 which provided for establishment of Israel as an independent Jewish state.

Eligibility requirements

Those who are eligible to immigrate under the Law of Return are immediately granted citizenship. Controversy has arisen as to whether all those claiming citizenship rights under the Law of Return should be registered as "Jewish" citizens for census purposes. Jewish status is traditionally granted according to the halakhic definition of being Jewish-- if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish as well or if you convert to Judaism (though conversions to Reform and Conservative Judaism streams are generally not recognized by many people in Israel). However, any Jew regardless of affiliation may return and claim citizenship in Israel.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law...are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew" (Law of Return).

The demographic explanation

A second explanation is that in order to increase immigration levels so as to offset the "demographic threat" posed by the continuing presence and growth of the Palestinian population, the law expanded the base group of those eligible to immigrate to Israel.[2]

Controversy

Critics claim that the Law of Return runs counter to the claims of a democratic state.[8][9] [10]

Critique of the Law of Return by Palestinians and advocates for Palestinian refugees is often linked to the Palestinian demand for a right of return.[11] The Law of Return, as contrasted against the right of return, is cited by Palestinians and their supporters as a deep offense that amounts to asking them to accept what they see as institutionalized ethnic discrimination that privileges the rights of Jews.[12]

 

[Ravi]

I said other countries, Shog. I only have a say in how we run ours. No time to read the rest of your post for now.

And, btw, nothing you quoted Editec saying was racist. You, yourself, want to live in a country with an official language. Think about what that says about your position for a while.

 

[Ravi]

So if my mother converted to Judiasm then I'm eligible to live in Israel if I also claim to be a Jew.

Where is the racial issue?

 

[AllieBaba]

Again, it isn't a racial thing...both groups have the same "racial" roots, for crying out loud. And any country is free to have a state religion if they so choose. I personally think the my Santa Claus is better than your Santa Claus rational is ridiculous, but it isn't my place to decide if another country can or cannot have a state religion.

Imposing a "state religion" is usurping freedom.