Why is climate science political?

[RollingThunder]

Yes, just imagine, 30 years after the end of the LITTLE ICE AGE there was a lot of snow at an elevation of 15,000 feet and above.

Yeah.....so? You have quite a talent for irrelevancies.

The important points are these:
"An examination of ice cores taken from the North Ice Field Glacier indicate that the "snows of Kilimanjaro" (aka glaciers) have a basal age of 11,700 years."
"The period from 1912 to present has witnessed the disappearance of more than 80% of the ice cover on Kilimanjaro."
"Of the ice cover still present in 2000, 26% had disappeared by 2007."
"At the current rate, Kilimanjaro is expected to become ice-free some time between 2022 and 2033."

How do idiots like you find food.

Funny, that's exactly what everyone with more than half a brain asks about you and the other denier cult dingbats.

Your whole existence is irrelevant. That point aside what does your website have to say about the holocene thermal maximum when the temps were much higher than they are today? Hmmmm? What was the state of the glaciers on Kilimanjaro then?
Nice attempt to cover up your compatriots idiotic response. You fail as usual.

Oh walleyed, why do you cling so tightly to your debunked denier cult myths? Oh right, you're retarded.

I just spanked you yesterday on another thread over your idiotic holocene thermal maximum myth.

Get a grip, little retard, your lies and nonsense won't fly here.

Sooooo, what happened during the Holocene Thermal maximum when temps were at least 6 degrees warmer than today. Why didn't the world end back then?

Oh wow, walleyedretard, your denier cult myths are just too funny for words. You must be an absolute idiot to believe in those anti-science fantasies and lies.

Holocene climatic optimum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Holocene Climate Optimum (HCO) was a warm period during roughly the interval 9,000 to 5,000 years B.P.. This event has also been known by many other names, including: Hypsithermal, Altithermal, Climatic Optimum, Holocene Optimum, Holocene Thermal Maximum, and Holocene Megathermal. This warm period was followed by a gradual decline until about two millennia ago.

Global effects

The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (in one study, winter warming of 3 to 9 °C and summer of 2 to 6 °C in northern central Siberia).[1] The northwest of Europe experienced warming, while there was cooling in the south.[2] The average temperature change appears to have declined rapidly with latitude so that essentially no change in mean temperature is reported at low and mid latitudes. Tropical reefs tend to show temperature increases of less than 1 °C; the tropical ocean surface at the Great Barrier Reef ~5350 years ago was 1 °C warmer and enriched in 18O by 0.5 per mil relative to modern seawater.[3] In terms of the global average, temperatures were probably colder than present day (depending on estimates of latitude dependence and seasonality in response patterns). While temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere were warmer than average during the summers, the tropics and areas of the Southern Hemisphere were colder than average.[4]

"What was the state of the glaciers on Kilimanjaro then?" - the state of the glaciers during the htm was that they were probably doing fine since they are in the tropics and the "tropics were colder than average".

 

[RollingThunder]

Did someone mention physical evidence?

Snow adorns the crown of Kilimanjaro

TANZANIA (eTN ) - Constituting the highest mountain in Africa, Mount Kilimanjaro is slowly building up its snow cover, allaying the fears of prominent scientists who had predicted witnessing the eminence lose its famous white hat. The drifts are slowly thickening on the top point of this summit, giving new hopes to Mount Kilimanjaro environmental watchdogs and tourists that the peak may not lose its beautiful snowy cap, as scientific experts have long been warning.

Most tourist-attractive site in Tanzania Snow adorns the crown of Kilimanjaro - eTurboNews.com

The glacier atop Kilimanjaro was never the victim of warming, but rather of lower precipitation.

Another disingenuous "proof" offered by the warmers.

The glaciers atop Kilimanjaro are just a few out of the many thousands of glaciers worldwide, most of which are melting and receding or else melting and slipping faster into the oceans. The few on Kilimanjaro are not that significant and they are not being used as "proof" of anything in the world scientific community. There are other factors besides AGW that can influence the growth or decline of glaciers but nevertheless to say that any current glacial decline is not caused by warming but rather by less precipitation is just kind of stupid. Global warming is causing climate changes which include shifts in rainfall patterns so a pattern of "lower precipitation" over time could easily be a result of global warming. The fact is, you have no idea what you're talking about because you don't really understand this subject at all. For political reasons, you parrot the anti-scientific lies and misinformation you pick up off of denier cult blogs and FauxNews. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you are unable to comprehend the science involved in this issue.

 

[RollingThunder]

can someone please tell me how the continued retreat of glaciers is evidence of manmade global warming? is the retreat before 1950 (or whatever cutoff you want to use) different than post 1950?

YES!


World's glaciers melting at accelerated pace, leading scientists say
The Guardian
Suzanne Goldenberg
20 January 2010
(excerpts)

From the Alps to the Andes, the world's glaciers are retreating at an accelerated pace, leading climate scientists said today. Lonnie Thompson, a glaciologist at Ohio State University, said there is strong evidence from a variety of sources of significant melting of glaciers - from the area around Kilimanjaro in Africa to the Alps, the Andes, and the icefields of Antarctica because of a warming climate. Ice is also disappearing at a faster rate in recent decades, he said. "It is not any single glacier," he said. "It is very clear that these glaciers are behaving in a similar fashion." He said only about 800 of the 46,000 glaciers in the Himalayas are being monitored by scientists. Data from those under observation suggests that 95% of glaciers are in retreat, but it is still unclear how much mass the glaciers are losing without knowing the depth of the affected places. "Those changes - the acceleration of the retreat of the glaciers and the fact that it is a global response - is the concerning part of all this. It is not any single glacier," he said

Scientists now had evidence collected over a long period of that decline from samples of the ice core and even collections of plants from mountains that were left ice-free for the first time in more than 5,000 years, Thompson said. The World Glacier Monitoring Service shows a similar picture. In a 2005 survey of 442 glaciers, 398 - or 90% - were retreating, 18 were stationary and 26 were advancing. Glacier melt is also threatening water supplies, the UCS said, pointing to a 2008 study in the Himalayas which showed less water flowing from the glaciers to the great rivers such as the Indus, Ganges and Brahmaputra that sustain the Indian subcontinent. Thompson, who has been studying glaciers in the Andes for more than 30 years, said he had watched the loss in his own lifetime. A number of the region's glaciers have disappeared. Venezuela, which had six glaciers when he first began as a graduate student in the early 1970s, now has only two small ice masses which Thompson thought would be gone within ten years. An Andean glacier that had been melting at a pace of six metres a year 40 years ago is now disappearing at a rate of 60 metres a year, he said.

© 2012 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved.

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.)

 

[westwall]

can someone please tell me how the continued retreat of glaciers is evidence of manmade global warming? is the retreat before 1950 (or whatever cutoff you want to use) different than post 1950?

Yes, the retreat before 1950 was GREATER than it is today.

 

[westwall]

Yeah.....so? You have quite a talent for irrelevancies.

The important points are these:
"An examination of ice cores taken from the North Ice Field Glacier indicate that the "snows of Kilimanjaro" (aka glaciers) have a basal age of 11,700 years."
"The period from 1912 to present has witnessed the disappearance of more than 80% of the ice cover on Kilimanjaro."
"Of the ice cover still present in 2000, 26% had disappeared by 2007."
"At the current rate, Kilimanjaro is expected to become ice-free some time between 2022 and 2033."





Funny, that's exactly what everyone with more than half a brain asks about you and the other denier cult dingbats.

Your whole existence is irrelevant. That point aside what does your website have to say about the holocene thermal maximum when the temps were much higher than they are today? Hmmmm? What was the state of the glaciers on Kilimanjaro then?
Nice attempt to cover up your compatriots idiotic response. You fail as usual.

Oh walleyed, why do you cling so tightly to your debunked denier cult myths? Oh right, you're retarded.

I just spanked you yesterday on another thread over your idiotic holocene thermal maximum myth.

Get a grip, little retard, your lies and nonsense won't fly here.

Sooooo, what happened during the Holocene Thermal maximum when temps were at least 6 degrees warmer than today. Why didn't the world end back then?

Oh wow, walleyedretard, your denier cult myths are just too funny for words. You must be an absolute idiot to believe in those anti-science fantasies and lies.

Holocene climatic optimum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Holocene Climate Optimum (HCO) was a warm period during roughly the interval 9,000 to 5,000 years B.P.. This event has also been known by many other names, including: Hypsithermal, Altithermal, Climatic Optimum, Holocene Optimum, Holocene Thermal Maximum, and Holocene Megathermal. This warm period was followed by a gradual decline until about two millennia ago.

Global effects

The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (in one study, winter warming of 3 to 9 °C and summer of 2 to 6 °C in northern central Siberia).[1] The northwest of Europe experienced warming, while there was cooling in the south.[2] The average temperature change appears to have declined rapidly with latitude so that essentially no change in mean temperature is reported at low and mid latitudes. Tropical reefs tend to show temperature increases of less than 1 °C; the tropical ocean surface at the Great Barrier Reef ~5350 years ago was 1 °C warmer and enriched in 18O by 0.5 per mil relative to modern seawater.[3] In terms of the global average, temperatures were probably colder than present day (depending on estimates of latitude dependence and seasonality in response patterns). While temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere were warmer than average during the summers, the tropics and areas of the Southern Hemisphere were colder than average.[4]

"What was the state of the glaciers on Kilimanjaro then?" - the state of the glaciers during the htm was that they were probably doing fine since they are in the tropics and the "tropics were colder than average".

What was that troll boy?

HOLOCENE THERMAL MAXIMUM UP TO 3°C WARMER THAN TODAY

Quaternary Science Reviews, Article in Press, Corrected Proof
HYPERLINK "http://tinyurl.com/o7gh3" \t "linkWin" http://tinyurl.com/o7gh3

Early Holocene climate variability and the timing and extent of the Holocene thermal maximum (HTM) in northern Iceland

Chris Caseldine a), Peter Langdon a) and Naomi Holmes a)

a Department of Geography, School of Geography, Archaeology and Earth Resources, University of Exeter, Exeter EX4 4RJ, UK

Abstract
The magnitude and timing of Holocene maximum warmth in the Arctic and sub-Arctic has been the subject of considerable recent interest, particularly in the context of future climate change. Although lying at a crucial location in the North Atlantic close to significant atmospheric and oceanic boundaries, terrestrial Holocene climatic data from Iceland are few and predominantly derive from glacial and palaeoecological evidence. Here we present new datasets from Tröllaskagi, based on chironomid-inferred temperatures (CI-T), using sub-fossil chironomids from the same lake sediments supplemented by pollen data. July air temperatures have been derived using an Icelandic training set, and the data suggest optimal temperatures at sea level up to 1.5 °C above current levels around 8 k cal. yr BP, a time when birch woodland was well developed in Tröllaskagi, but when woodland had still not fully developed in the more isolated NW peninsula. Our data thus suggest that optimal summer warmth did not occur in Iceland until 8 kcal. yr BP at the earliest, possibly lasting until 6.7 kcal. yr BP. The amount of warming for July was therefore at least 1.5 °C, but possibly up to 2-3 °C higher than the 1961-1990 average on the basis of the tree-line data. Comparison with data from elsewhere in adjacent Arctic regions, Greenland and Eastern Arctic Canada show peak warmth to be later in Iceland, and less pronounced. It also appears that there were enhanced temperature gradients during the first half of the Holocene between the two study areas Tröllaskagi and the NW Peninsula and that they influenced patterns of vegetation colonisation, with current spatial temperature patterns only developing as Holocene climate deteriorated after around 6 kcal. yr BP.

FULL PAPER at HYPERLINK "http://tinyurl.com/o7gh3" \t "linkWin" http://tinyurl.com/o7gh3

doi:10.1016/j.quascirev.2006.02.003
Copyright © 2006 Elsevier Ltd All rights reserved.

Or from one of your sites....

Although remnants of the Laurentide Ice Sheet did not disappear until about 7 Ka, the early to mid-Holocene (4,500 to 10,000 years) has often been considered to have been warmer than the last 4,500 years. A thermal maximum occurred at about 6 to 7 Ka (Figure 5.18). Conclusions about the mid Holocene warmth are based on several lines of evidence - latitudinal displacements of vegetation zones (Ritchie et al., 1983) and vertical displacements of mountain glaciers (Porter & Orombelli, 1985).

Quantitative estimates of mid-Holocene warmth (COHMAP, 1988) suggest that the Earth was perhaps 1 or 2°C warmer than today. Most of this warmth may primarily represent seasonal (summer) warmth rather than year-round warmth. Accompanying the higher global temperatures were significant changes in precipitation patterns, most noticeably in the monsoon belt of Africa and Asia. Reconstructions from palaeo-lake levels and latitudinal vegetation shifts (Ritchie & Haynes, 1987) suggest that these regions were considerably wetter than they were during the arid conditions of the last glacial maximum (18Ka), when moisture availability from cooler Northern Hemisphere sub-tropical oceans was reduced (Street-Perrott & Perrott, 1990).

Mid-Holocene Thermal Maximum


Or....



Edit The Holocene thermal maximum and late-Holocene cooling in the tundra of NE European Russia
BibTex | RIS | RefWorks Download

J. Sakari Salonen, Heikki Seppä, Minna Väliranta, Vivienne J. Jones, Angela Self, Maija Heikkilä, Seija Kultti, Handong Yang
To investigate the Holocene climate and treeline dynamics in the European Russian Arctic, we analysed sediment pollen, conifer stomata, and plant macrofossils from Lake Kharinei, a tundra lake near the treeline in the Pechora area. We present quantitative summer temperature reconstructions from Lake Kharinei and Lake Tumbulovaty, a previously studied lake in the same region, using a pollen–climate transfer function based on a new calibration set from northern European Russia. Our records suggest that the early-Holocene summer temperatures from 11,500calyr BP onwards were already slightly higher than at present, followed by a stable Holocene Thermal Maximum (HTM) at 8000–3500calyr BP when summer temperatures in the tundra were ca. 3°C above present-day values. A Picea forest surrounded Lake Kharinei during the HTM, reaching 150km north of the present taiga limit. The HTM ended with a temperature drop at 3500–2500calyr BP associated with permafrost initiation in the region. Mixed spruce forest began to disappear around Lake Kharinei at ca. 3500calyr BP, with the last tree macrofossils recorded at ca. 2500calyr BP, suggesting that the present wide tundra zone in the Pechora region formed during the last ca. 3500yr.
Journal: Quaternary Research - QUATERNARY RES , vol. 75, no. 3, pp. 501-511, 2011
DOI: 10.1016/j.yqres.2011.01.007
Cumulative Annual

View Publication
The following links allow you to view full publications. These links are maintained by other sources not affiliated with Microsoft Academic Search.


( www.sciencedirect.com )


http://academic.research.microsoft....e-cooling-in-the-tundra-of-ne-european-russia


I can go on and on and bitchslap you as many times as you like. You found one site that agrees with you (no surprise it's one of your charlatan sites) I can post dozens that say they, and you, are full of horse manure.

 

[starcraftzzz]

Sure enough, the glaciers are nor receding, the arctic ocean ice is not decreasing in area and volume, the arctic ocean clathrates are not creating 1 kilometer wide boils of methane directly to the atmosphere, and Swiss Re and Munich Re are lying about the record increase in weather related disasters in the last three decades.

Just a bunch of people wanting to tax poor Ian. Damn, I did not take you for one of the fruitloops.

My thoughts exactly.

Denying physical evidence that many of us have seen with our own eyes is not a very rational defence.

Sure enough, the glaciers are nor receding,

OMG! This must be the first time in human history that glaciers have retreated. LOL!

/QUOTE]
OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

 

[skookerasbil]

My thoughts exactly.

Denying physical evidence that many of us have seen with our own eyes is not a very rational defence.

Sure enough, the glaciers are nor receding,

OMG! This must be the first time in human history that glaciers have retreated. LOL!

/QUOTE]
OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

fAiL asshole..............


So says Yale University...........not exactly the bastion of conservative thinking!!!!


Apocalypse Fatigue: Losing the Public on Climate Change by Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger: Yale Environment 360



There is zero doubt in 2012...........this "glacier melt" crap is big time information. But only to the <5% radical environmentalists trolling the nether-regions of internet gayness. A vast majority of the public give a collective yawn with this bullcrap anymore, and as Ive astutely pointed out with numerous links, every poll shows it DECISIVELY.




s0n.........you might just was well be standing in the middle of Siberia, naked as a jaybird in the middle of January screaming "fire!!!" while waving a bannana.







Indeed.........the retards are winning!!!

 

[skookerasbil]

When will the science matter in the real world?


When pics like this are on the news............waterskiiing on a central Alaskan lake in the middle of January!!! Not a moment sooner.

Remember the story of the bear shitting in the woods.............if you're not there does it smell?



The k00ks think the shitting bear in the woods is causing everybody to run out and buy gas masks!!!

 

[Saigon]

can someone please tell me how the continued retreat of glaciers is evidence of manmade global warming? is the retreat before 1950 (or whatever cutoff you want to use) different than post 1950?

Yes, the retreat before 1950 was GREATER than it is today.

Actually, no the rate of decline now is around double that of 1950 - and yes, I can back that up.

Check Arendt's work on the Alaska glaciers for this- here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110527162507.htm

This is an overview, but the study is available oneline (you may have to register)

 

[skookerasbil]

 

[Saigon]

Oddball -

And THAT is your example? And why on earth would you think this was relevent?

Kilimanjro doesn't even have glaciers, genius!

As you must be aware - 97% of the world's glaciers (and 99% of Alaskan glaciers) are in retreat.

Some 1% are growing.

So, yes, if you spend another hour looking, you will find evidence that backs your cause, and you can prevent it as evidence that everything is fine.

How old are the glacial fields that are melting?

If 97% of the world's glaciers are declining, and largely at double the rate they were declining - what age would you think they are?

 

[skookerasbil]

can someone please tell me how the continued retreat of glaciers is evidence of manmade global warming? is the retreat before 1950 (or whatever cutoff you want to use) different than post 1950?

Yes, the retreat before 1950 was GREATER than it is today.

Actually, no the rate of decline now is around double that of 1950 - and yes, I can back that up.

Check Arendt's work on the Alaska glaciers for this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tibLjnn_Nf4]Midget - YouTube[/ame]

 

[skookerasbil]

This forum is a fucking hoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

Yes, I deny your claim that in reality this is the first time glaciers have retreated.

Sorry if that makes you feel more retarded than usual.

 

[Saigon]

My thoughts exactly.

Denying physical evidence that many of us have seen with our own eyes is not a very rational defence.

Sure enough, the glaciers are nor receding,

OMG! This must be the first time in human history that glaciers have retreated. LOL!

/QUOTE]
OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

Todd's posts are always worth reading - just not for the reasons he thinks. Many of them really are just hilarious.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd's posts are always worth reading - just not for the reasons he thinks. Many of them really are just hilarious.

Yes, pointing out warmist idiocy is funny.

How many trillions do you feel we should spend to reduce temperatures in 2080 by 0.2 degrees?

 

[Saigon]

Todd -

I don't think it is a question of money. In some cases, I suspect some countries will save money in the long run.

 

[Saigon]

OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

Yes, I deny your claim that in reality this is the first time glaciers have retreated.

Sorry if that makes you feel more retarded than usual.

Todd - everyone knows that glaciers go through complex cycles or growth and retreat. In normal circumstances, some glaciers are growing while others retreat, and others do neither.

What you seem to have somehow missed is that this complex cycle seem to slow to a halt in 1950, and from then on we have seen 97% of glaciers retreating.

(Check the U. Fairbanks study conducted by Anthony Arendt on this - here is an overview: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110527162507.htm

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd -

I don't think it is a question of money. In some cases, I suspect some countries will save money in the long run.

Obviously spending trillions now to reduce global temps by 0.2 degrees in 2080 will save money in the long run.

Maybe by the year 2300? 2400 at the latest.
Where should I mail my check?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

OMG you deny reality are ytou insane or just a retard?

Yes, I deny your claim that in reality this is the first time glaciers have retreated.

Sorry if that makes you feel more retarded than usual.

Todd - everyone knows that glaciers go through complex cycles or growth and retreat. In normal circumstances, some glaciers are growing while others retreat, and others do neither.

What you seem to have somehow missed is that this complex cycle seem to slow to a halt in 1950, and from then on we have seen 97% of glaciers retreating.

(Check the U. Fairbanks study conducted by Anthony Arendt on this - here is an overview: Assessing the influence of Alaska glaciers is slippery work

Todd - everyone knows that glaciers go through complex cycles or growth and retreat.

Apparently the idiot I'm mocking doesn't know that. Give the moron a hand, would you?