Why not, a No Fly List Compromise?

[tinydancer]

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm totally serious. We're talking about the validity of the no-fly list. In particular, I'm criticizing it on the grounds that it undermines civil liberties. It gives government the power to maintain a list of people who can be deprived of their rights without due process. Our Constitution is supposed to protect us from that. Our government should be required to prove that someone is a terrorist before they can treat them like one.

Here's a case in point where the list was abused. These people opposed the death penalty and the Iraq war now became terror suspects. Aye carumba!

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects.

The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war.

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jon_berzerk]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

Well, no. It's a bi-partisan effort. As I pointed out earlier, Bush and co. foisted the no-fly list on us in the first place.

that doesnt change the fact that they are leftists

who btw is trying to eliminate due process currently

 

[dblack]

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm totally serious. We're talking about the validity of the no-fly list. In particular, I'm criticizing it on the grounds that it undermines civil liberties. It gives government the power to maintain a list of people who can be deprived of their rights without due process. Our Constitution is supposed to protect us from that. Our government should be required to prove that someone is a terrorist before they can treat them like one.

Here's a case in point where the list was abused. These people opposed the death penalty and the Iraq war now became terror suspects. Aye carumba!

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects.

The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war.

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly. And one of the sad ironies of all this is that one of the reasons for the Second Amendment in the first place was to give people a chance to protect themselves from a rogue government that might keep secret black-list of 'enemies of the state'.

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

Well, no. It's a bi-partisan effort. As I pointed out earlier, Bush and co. foisted the no-fly list on us in the first place.

that doesnt change the fact that they are leftists

who btw is trying to eliminate due process currently

I think it changes it quite bit. We should fight them regardless, but we shouldn't be fooled into the idea that leftists are attacking our rights and the right is protecting them.

 

[jon_berzerk]

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

Well, no. It's a bi-partisan effort. As I pointed out earlier, Bush and co. foisted the no-fly list on us in the first place.

that doesnt change the fact that they are leftists

who btw is trying to eliminate due process currently

I think it changes it quite bit. We should fight them regardless, but we shouldn't be fooled into the idea that leftists are attacking our rights and the right is protecting them.

we have to guard against all of them

there is no such thing as a due process compromise

 

[PredFan]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

We do that for search warrants already. Why can we not do it for no-fly lists? We have reasonable suspicion that there will be evidence of a crime in a person's residence, we prove it to a judge we get that warrant. I'm not trying to argue, you seem to know, I'm just asking because I don't understand.

 

[PredFan]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

We already have that, it's called background checks.

 

[PredFan]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

You cannot be arrested for pledging your allegiance to ISIS. In this case you could and should be watched.

 

[OldLady]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

I'm not sure of personal vendettas but stupid mistakes have occurred such as Senator Ted Kennedy being on a no fly list.

And this is how he got on the list. Somebody had used T Kennedy as an alias.

"In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports.[citation needed] He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.)

Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens":

"How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[39] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tiny, the former director of the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center (which develops the lists) explained during an interview yesterday that Senator Kennedy was never on the no-fly list. A man with a similar name was on an airline's no-fly list because the guy had "inadvertently" packed bullets in a bag at some point. Senator Kennedy may have been held up at airports for three weeks, but it was due to the above, which his buddy Ridge may have helped get to the bottom of, but it had nothing to do with the FBI or the No-Fly list. Ever.

Good grief! It has everything to do with the No Fly List. It shows how fucked up the system is. There are 7,000 men with the name T Kennedy out there. Should those 7,000 innocent T. Kennedys now be denied the 2nd? With no due process?

IT WAS NEVER THE FBI NO-FLY LIST that prevented T. Kennedy from getting on the plane. Hence, it would not have prevented anyone from buying a gun. It is not that inaccurate and since 2014 there has been a remedy for getting off the list if there is an error. The legislation currently being proposed gives the government 30 days to prove to a judge that you shouldn't have a gun. If they can't, the gun is yours. I think a 30 day delay is an acceptable compromise, considering that the vast majority of people on the list are actually involved in organizations that support terrorism or have talked about blowing up a plane/using it as a weapon. They haven't DONE it yet, but they are not, by my lights, good candidates for buying weapons.

 

[Roudy]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Give a potential terrorist advance notice they're being watched by formally informing them they're on some "watch list"? Democraps just don't understand the purpose for the watch list in the first place. They're pushing this gun control issue as a diversion because the Orlando massacre highlights Obama's total failure as a president, of which Hillary is a by product.

 

[OldLady]

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm totally serious. We're talking about the validity of the no-fly list. In particular, I'm criticizing it on the grounds that it undermines civil liberties. It gives government the power to maintain a list of people who can be deprived of their rights without due process. Our Constitution is supposed to protect us from that. Our government should be required to prove that someone is a terrorist before they can treat them like one.

Here's a case in point where the list was abused. These people opposed the death penalty and the Iraq war now became terror suspects. Aye carumba!

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects.

The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war.

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly. And one of the sad ironies of all this is that one of the reasons for the Second Amendment in the first place was to give people a chance to protect themselves from a rogue government that might keep secret black-list of 'enemies of the state'.

No, it was to give people a chance to protect themselves from rogue governments like ISIS. Which side are you on, anyway?

 

[OldLady]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

We already have that, it's called background checks.

Background checks that don't include the Terrorist Watch List or No Fly List. Some people feel it is stupid to leave them out.

 

[Montrovant]

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm totally serious. We're talking about the validity of the no-fly list. In particular, I'm criticizing it on the grounds that it undermines civil liberties. It gives government the power to maintain a list of people who can be deprived of their rights without due process. Our Constitution is supposed to protect us from that. Our government should be required to prove that someone is a terrorist before they can treat them like one.

Here's a case in point where the list was abused. These people opposed the death penalty and the Iraq war now became terror suspects. Aye carumba!

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects.

The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war.

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly. And one of the sad ironies of all this is that one of the reasons for the Second Amendment in the first place was to give people a chance to protect themselves from a rogue government that might keep secret black-list of 'enemies of the state'.

No, it was to give people a chance to protect themselves from rogue governments like ISIS. Which side are you on, anyway?

What? The second was created to protect people from organizations like ISIS?

 

[PredFan]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Give a potential terrorist advance notice they're being watched by formally informing them they're on some "watch list"? Democraps just don't understand the purpose for the watch list in the first place. They're pushing this gun control issue as a diversion because the Orlando massacre highlights Obama's total failure as a president, of which Hillary is a by product.

I'm thinking of using it more like surveillance.

 

[tinydancer]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

I'm not sure of personal vendettas but stupid mistakes have occurred such as Senator Ted Kennedy being on a no fly list.

And this is how he got on the list. Somebody had used T Kennedy as an alias.

"In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports.[citation needed] He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.)

Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens":

"How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[39] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tiny, the former director of the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center (which develops the lists) explained during an interview yesterday that Senator Kennedy was never on the no-fly list. A man with a similar name was on an airline's no-fly list because the guy had "inadvertently" packed bullets in a bag at some point. Senator Kennedy may have been held up at airports for three weeks, but it was due to the above, which his buddy Ridge may have helped get to the bottom of, but it had nothing to do with the FBI or the No-Fly list. Ever.

Good grief! It has everything to do with the No Fly List. It shows how fucked up the system is. There are 7,000 men with the name T Kennedy out there. Should those 7,000 innocent T. Kennedys now be denied the 2nd? With no due process?

IT WAS NEVER THE FBI NO-FLY LIST that prevented T. Kennedy from getting on the plane. Hence, it would not have prevented anyone from buying a gun. It is not that inaccurate and since 2014 there has been a remedy for getting off the list if there is an error. The legislation currently being proposed gives the government 30 days to prove to a judge that you shouldn't have a gun. If they can't, the gun is yours. I think a 30 day delay is an acceptable compromise, considering that the vast majority of people on the list are actually involved in organizations that support terrorism or have talked about blowing up a plane/using it as a weapon. They haven't DONE it yet, but they are not, by my lights, good candidates for buying weapons.

The no fly list can be abused. Did you catch my post about Maryland? Where the police took it upon themselves to get anti death penalty and anti Iraq war protestors designated as potential terrorists and got them on the no fly list?

That's what you call FUBAR'D.

 

[PredFan]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

We already have that, it's called background checks.

Background checks that don't include the Terrorist Watch List or No Fly List. Some people feel it is stupid to leave them out.

What you are proposing is a background check. You are just choosing to call it a different name.

 

[Roudy]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Give a potential terrorist advance notice they're being watched by formally informing them they're on some "watch list"? Democraps just don't understand the purpose for the watch list in the first place. They're pushing this gun control issue as a diversion because the Orlando massacre highlights Obama's total failure as a president, of which Hillary is a by product.

I'm thinking of using it more like surveillance.

I agree that homeland security should move in quickly to question and or arrest someone on the watch list who wants to buy ANY type of gun. But informing them beforehand because of "due process", that's insane. They would basically let a potential terrorist know he's being watched.

 

[PredFan]

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

Well, no. It's a bi-partisan effort. As I pointed out earlier, Bush and co. foisted the no-fly list on us in the first place.

that doesnt change the fact that they are leftists

who btw is trying to eliminate due process currently

I think it changes it quite bit. We should fight them regardless, but we shouldn't be fooled into the idea that leftists are attacking our rights and the right is protecting them.

we have to guard against all of them

there is no such thing as a due process compromise

Is there not? Are we not compromising with search, or surveillance warrants?

 

[PredFan]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Give a potential terrorist advance notice they're being watched by formally informing them they're on some "watch list"? Democraps just don't understand the purpose for the watch list in the first place. They're pushing this gun control issue as a diversion because the Orlando massacre highlights Obama's total failure as a president, of which Hillary is a by product.

I'm thinking of using it more like surveillance.

I agree that homeland security should move in quickly to question and or arrest someone on the watch list who wants to buy ANY type of gun. But informing them beforehand because of "due process", that's insane. They would basically let a potential terrorist know he's being watched.

We do that already with search and surveillance warrants. Can we not figure out a way to do it with a terror watch list? I'm asking because I don't know.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

You cannot be arrested for pledging your allegiance to ISIS. In this case you could and should be watched.

there is a difference in being "watched"

vs

having your "due process"rights stripped away

i would think that you would agree with that