Why teachers need more pay

[Andylusion]

Unions this unions that. Lame excuse. It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility. It's only the teachers. Always the teachers. And then it's the unions. What a bunch of complete garbage. Try again.

But the two things are connected. Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture. Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.

Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.

For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school. What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school. What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.

When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible. He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.

Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.

But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed. They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.

Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.

And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.

Now I’m going to defend the teachers for a minute.

You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?

And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck? My parents were immigrants and they knew the importance of a good education. And they cracked down on us if we weren’t doing our homework.

Anyone today who doesn’t know it’s important that their kid get a good education is dumb and probably shouldn’t have them.

But, it’s not the dumb parents job to teach their kids. It’s the teachers job. And if they can’t do it maybe they shouldn’t be teaching.

But I like the idea of separating the smart kids from the dummies. I would have went to the dummy school

You say people have no incentive to succeed? Why not? Aren’t there good jobs out there?

Has nothing to do with jobs.
No matter what grade I get in elementary school, as long as I scrape by with a passing grade, even if a D+ or C-, I'll go to the same middle school as everyone else, no matter what.

Same with middle school. I'll end up at the same high school as everyone else, no matter what grade I get in middle school, provided I don't completely fail.

And even in high school, as long as I pass, most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. So what does it matter?

Lastly, even in college, most people don't look at your GPA. I haven't had an employer ask my GPA for any job I've ever gotten. Why does it matter?

The problem is, throughout the entire system, we have unintentionally taught that effort isn't important. Quality of results isn't important. As long as you scrape by, you will move up.

This is part of the reason our schools are failing. This is why in a private school, students have more than just internal desire to succeed. If they don't keep their grades up, they get removed. It's called "motivation". Something extremely lacking in public school students.

And you said people don’t realize how devastating it is 15 years down.... who doesn’t realize it? Then doesn’t that make them a dumb fuck?

No, they are simply learning based on the incentives, and cultural values around them.

Immigrants often have different cultural values. Almost inherently, they do not have an entitlement mindset, when immigrating. They believe they must earn their place in a new culture and society.

 

[SweetSue92]

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I'm not going to argue with your experience. I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer. Which is true. I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.

So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it. What solutions have teachers given?

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

Well yeah. Of course. What is your point? You do realize that Finland does this? Most of Europe, does this. Students that are crap, are kicked out. Thus they do better at educating.

Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed. This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up. High end schools, don't take non-high-end students. If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go. You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.

So yes! Exactly! Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids. Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.

Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth. Yeah, exactly. Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated. People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

No, of course not. The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.

So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.

There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.

The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.

Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.

 

[SweetSue92]

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

 

[SweetSue92]

Unions this unions that. Lame excuse. It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility. It's only the teachers. Always the teachers. And then it's the unions. What a bunch of complete garbage. Try again.

But the two things are connected. Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture. Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.

Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.

For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school. What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school. What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.

When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible. He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.

Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.

But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed. They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.

Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.

And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.

Definitely making crap up.

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah, I disagree. It should be a local issue. If California wants to destroy themselves with bad taxes, and school, that should be their choice. We live in a Republic, not a Dictatorship of the Federal government. Or at least we should.

Then nothing will happen. If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations. This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.

Terrible idea. Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.

I would rather leave it to the local level. Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government. You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want. Bad idea. Terrible idea.

I think you have convinced me. Centralization is always bad, I must agree. What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools. Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use. The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets. How can we stop them then? They will play one school district against the other.

...

I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.

Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.

Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.

 

[sealybobo]

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.

 

[SweetSue92]

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.

Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.

Do you know how these things work?

 

[sealybobo]

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.

Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.

Do you know how these things work?

Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.

Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.

Do you know how these things work?

Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.

I'm going to say something to you before putting you on ignore here. It's a small-minded and mean--and I mean that in a small way--person who looks around, sees the way his life is harder than others, and let's that eat at his soul to the point he wants a stranger on the internet, a woman who is a really good teacher, to get fired from her job just to "show her".

You have shown me over and over this is who you are. I'm sure your teacher sister-in-law hates this, and being around you. It's too bad because in the end, it's most corrosive to your own soul. I am putting you on ignore--I don't need to be around it. It's very important to me that I keep myself as healthy as I can in all number of ways for my students' sake. But YOU have to be around YOU. And again. You're the kind that, rather than consider all the good things you have, will let yourself be eaten up so badly with covetousness that you wish a stranger on the internet the loss of her long time career, just to "teach her a lesson".

Two days before Christmas.

You have to live with that rot in your soul, which I really, really advise you tend to. I would personally recommend communion with God, but at the very least, a gratitude journal or something.

That's all. I'm done.

 

[Unkotare]

...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. ...

WRONG.

 

[sealybobo]

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

They bargain my contract. They absolutely do not protect me in any way.

Then it would be great if they stopped bargaining for you and it’d be a great lesson to everyone else if they fired you without cause. Right to work companies don’t have to give you a reason.

Why should they fire me? I have excellent reviews for years now. Highly effective plus won district awards. That's wrongful termination material, with or without a union. At my age, for ageism.

Do you know how these things work?

Yes because I have worked for private companies who know ways around being sued for ageism.

I'm going to say something to you before putting you on ignore here. It's a small-minded and mean--and I mean that in a small way--person who looks around, sees the way his life is harder than others, and let's that eat at his soul to the point he wants a stranger on the internet, a woman who is a really good teacher, to get fired from her job just to "show her".

You have shown me over and over this is who you are. I'm sure your teacher sister-in-law hates this, and being around you. It's too bad because in the end, it's most corrosive to your own soul. I am putting you on ignore--I don't need to be around it. It's very important to me that I keep myself as healthy as I can in all number of ways for my students' sake. But YOU have to be around YOU. And again. You're the kind that, rather than consider all the good things you have, will let yourself be eaten up so badly with covetousness that you wish a stranger on the internet the loss of her long time career, just to "teach her a lesson".

Two days before Christmas.

You have to live with that rot in your soul, which I really, really advise you tend to. I would personally recommend communion with God, but at the very least, a gratitude journal or something.

That's all. I'm done.

Sorry you got sucked into an argument I’m having with someone else. I don’t mean half the stuff I say to you. You seem like a very nice lady who I just happen to disagree with politically. Sorry

 

[anotherlife]

Unions this unions that. Lame excuse. It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility. It's only the teachers. Always the teachers. And then it's the unions. What a bunch of complete garbage. Try again.

...teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.

....

The Supreme Court says so.

Yeah, well they are wrong.

But that doesn't matter. Let's even pretend that it is a right. The moment you make something a 'right', you take the onus of responsibility off the individual. That's why you see kids and parents, that don't think they have to do anything to get an education.... and they don't. You see kids in school, that make no effort to learn anything, and parents that don't believe they have to make their children learn.... because after all... its societies job to educate. Not mine. They need to do their duty.

When you take the responsibility of education off the people, and put it on "society", then you end up with the education system we have.

Again, you look at Finland, students that don't make the grades, are kicked out. They can go to a trade school, and learn to fit pipes together if they please, but they don't burden teachers and their peers, with students who don't put in the effort.

So what happened to their "entitlement" to education? I guess they lost it.

Of course the irony is, because you can lose your 'right' to an education, the results are that few students fail out. The students knowing they can lose their education, end up trying to keep it.

Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union. It is the case too here in Africa. This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.

 

[anotherlife]

Then nothing will happen. If one city stops the drainage of taxes into its schools, then those Union teachers will simply laugh and move down to the next city, and the first city will not only lose its schools but also half of its property valuations. This can only be done therefore centrally on a national basis.

Terrible idea. Every time you centralize power in the hands of the Federal government, they screw it up.

I would rather leave it to the local level. Better to stay in a bad system, than give it to the Federal government. You put it in the hands of the feds, and the special interest money will pour into congress, to sway control of education in whatever way they want. Bad idea. Terrible idea.

I think you have convinced me. Centralization is always bad, I must agree. What I am trying to solve is the problem of the dependency of property prices on schools. Teacher unions can shut down public schools easily and drive property investments down, which is the weapon they use. The reason why public sector unions flourish when every other union fails is that they have your taxes in their pockets. How can we stop them then? They will play one school district against the other.

...

I’d like to have school free cities for people who don’t have kids.

Your dream of homosexual segregation isn’t very practical, Giovanni.

Look up the states that collect the least to pay for schools. I could move to one of those states but then I’d be in a red state.

Yes, and you would get a better education too. I hear also that the best US universities are now there. Too bad, too many democrat scum bags are now moving into the red states to save their money, not realizing that it is their own democrat idiocy that will turn the red state blue and make them lose their savings like they never moved to begin with. Same affliction as the Honduras gang bangers climbing across the wall and bringing Honduras with them. How safe are red states?

 

[Andylusion]

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I'm not going to argue with your experience. I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer. Which is true. I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.

So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it. What solutions have teachers given?

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

Well yeah. Of course. What is your point? You do realize that Finland does this? Most of Europe, does this. Students that are crap, are kicked out. Thus they do better at educating.

Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed. This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up. High end schools, don't take non-high-end students. If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go. You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.

So yes! Exactly! Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids. Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.

Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth. Yeah, exactly. Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated. People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

No, of course not. The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.

So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.

There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.

The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.

Then this is simple: do not compare foreign, private, or charter schools to public schools.

That makes no sense. The job of a public school is to educate. The job of a private or charter school is to educate. Why would we not compare?

You have two systems. One sucks. One works. Should you not compare the two to see what differences between the systems, cause what outcomes?

Are you saying that we should not compare the US public school system to any other school system on the planet? Because nearly all other school systems, kick out bad students, like private and charter schools.

That sounds like a method of avoiding the flaws in the system, in order to maintain a bad system.

In short, you are basically saying exactly what I claimed teachers and teachers unions have been saying.
Is that unfair? Why would you say that otherwise? Other than to maintain a terrible system?

If I am misreading your post, feel free to correct me.

 

[Andylusion]

Unions this unions that. Lame excuse. It is duly noted there is no mention of kids having an ounce of responsibility. It's only the teachers. Always the teachers. And then it's the unions. What a bunch of complete garbage. Try again.

But the two things are connected. Part of the reason why kids do take any responsibility, is because we have an entitlement culture. Part of the reason we have an entitlement culture is because teachers and teachers unions, are real quick to say that people are entitled to an education.

Additionally, one of the reason children have a non-caring attitude is that their grades in middle and high school, have little direct impact.

For example, in Japan, or Finland, what middle school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in elementary school. What high school you go to, is largely determined by the grades you get in middle school. What college you went to was determined by the grades you got in high school.

When I was in high school, there was a guy that spent his entire junior year, trying to get the lowest passing grade possible. He would sit there and calculate exactly how many questions he had to miss, in order to get that 61% passing score.

Now for him, it didn't matter. He was smart, and educated, and ended up a lawyer.

But the point is, you have a system of "no child left behind" where people have no incentive to succeed. They don't realize how devastating it is 15 years down the line, when they can't do anything with their life.

Now I list all of this, because it is true that students are part of the problem, but they are reacting to the incentives created by the system.

And the fact is... the teachers, and teachers unions are defending this system.

Definitely making crap up.

What do you think I am making up?

 

[Andylusion]

...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. ...

WRONG.

So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges. Not one mentioned high school GPA. All listed SAT and ACT.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'll be more than happy to admit it. But I'm just looking at the evidence, and this is the conclusion it leads me too.

When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school. They asked about my SAT.

Again, I knew a guy in high school, that intentionally got the lowest passing score possible. He ended up being a lawyer. Do you think I'm making that up? For what purpose?

You guys have said I'm wrong, and I'm lying, and whatever now, for a dozen posts. I keep asking, what am I lying about, and what evidence do you have. At least tell me what you think I'm lying about, because at this point, you guys are just parroting each other, with no substance or evidence.

Work with me! Give me something to go on. What is your beef?

 

[Andylusion]

Not only Finland, but this has been the system all over east Europe too, including the former Soviet Union. It is the case too here in Africa. This may be very well the reason why as many as 24 countries do better in school than the USA.

Hey are all you guys reading this?? I'm not making this crap up! I've read about school systems all over the world. We are the only moronic school system that promotes people regardless of their GPA. We're the only system in the world that has a no-child-left-behind-no-matter-how-they-do idiotic ideology.

 

[Unkotare]

...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. ...

WRONG.

So I just looked up the entrance requirements for local colleges. Not one mentioned high school GPA. ......

Holy shit, that's stupid. Every one of them requires a transcript from the high school (or equivalent) in the application package.

 

[Unkotare]

...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. ...

WRONG.

...

If I am wrong, then I am wrong. ...

You're wrong.

 

[Unkotare]

...most colleges look at SAT and ACT scores, rather than your GPA. ...

WRONG.

...

When I myself went to college, they never once looked at my GPA in high school. ....

Yes they did.