Why teachers need more pay

[Andylusion]

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I'm not going to argue with your experience. I'm just saying that I personally have not heard teachers give any other answer. Which is true. I personally have never heard a teacher say anything other than... more money.

So if you have some solutions, I'd love to hear it. What solutions have teachers given?

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

Well yeah. Of course. What is your point? You do realize that Finland does this? Most of Europe, does this. Students that are crap, are kicked out. Thus they do better at educating.

Whether are you are a top end teacher, mid-level, or low-level teacher..... you will be able to teach better, if problem-kids are removed. This is why in Japan, students that don't make the cut, do not move up. High end schools, don't take non-high-end students. If you can't make the scores needed to go to top high-school, or college... then you simply don't go. You either stay in that school until you qualify, or you drop out.

So yes! Exactly! Private schools do better because they don't take problem kids. Kids are there to learn, not there to cause problems and distract all the kids trying to learn.

Additionally, it is absolutely true that people who have to pay for the education of their children, are motivated to see that they are getting their monies worth. Yeah, exactly. Which is entirely why public schools should be eliminated. People do not respect stuff, that they pay nothing for, and believe they are entitled to.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

No, of course not. The whole "no child left behind", is the very reason we have a failing system.

So no, the entire point... the WHOLE THING.... is to get away from the regulations and rules, that is causing our system to fail.

There is nothing more stupid, than to drag the same bad rules and regulations, that caused the old system to fail, and apply it to a new system, and then be shocked it fails too.

The whole point... is to get away from the bad system.

 

[Andylusion]

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

 

[Unkotare]

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

 

[Unkotare]

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.

 

[Andylusion]

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

You do know that they have tried this in the past. They gave kids free educations at ivy league schools, and they just ended up dropping out.

 

[Andylusion]

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.

lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts? Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable. Did I run over your cat or something?

 

[Unkotare]

Not everyone can handle it, but that’s where a lot of the best education is needed.

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no possible way to have "best education" or 'better education' or almost any education, in that kind of environment. Whether it is needed there or not, doesn't matter. It is impossible.

...

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.

Well... you have the right to be wrong. Good talking to you.

 

[Unkotare]

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.

lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts? Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable. Did I run over your cat or something?

You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.

 

[Unkotare]

Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.

Well... you have the right to be wrong. Good talking to you.

I have the right to know better.

 

[Andylusion]

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.

lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts? Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable. Did I run over your cat or something?

You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.

I respectfully disagree. I've talked to too many teachers, who have said the same.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.

Well... you have the right to be wrong. Good talking to you.

I have the right to know better.

Both of my parents were public school teachers. Both got awards for their work. Both got rehired as teachers after they retired. My father was a university professor. Both had their masters, and my father had a Ph.D.

Both of my parents agree with what I have written, and I have heard the same from other teachers.

I stand by my words as both truthful and accurate.

 

[anotherlife]

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

Is there anything wrong with doing your job for nothing but your paycheck only? It may be easier if you also like your job, but you don't have to, you just have to do it and do it to an acceptable quality.

And these are all supposedly conservative republican teachers.

Until it comes to their collective bargaining power and job protections. Most of the teachers I know don’t like being treated like an employee who could lose their job if the school doesn’t want them there anymore. For whatever reason.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in. We have no job security, no pensions, no collective bargaining and we can and do get fired. Teachers have to do something horrible to be fired. Tenure

The problem goes back to taxation. Teacher tenures are possible because all their monies are from your tax. And you are not legally allowed to stop paying your taxes to them. And if you dare propose a tax reduction for next year, then they threaten you with closing their kindergarten services, slashing 10 % down the sales value of your property. A vicious circle. Any ideas how to break it?

 

[anotherlife]

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools. Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry. Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.

 

[Andylusion]

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools. Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry. Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.

No. States rights. The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.

It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.

 

[Unkotare]

Andy is pulling shit out of his ass and expecting those who don’t know better to believe him. His problem is that some people know better.

lol.... what have I ever done to you, other than agree with most of your posts? Your conduct toward me this thread is un-explainable. Did I run over your cat or something?

You are being dishonest. I don’t care for that.

If they said that they are shitty teachers. You are almost certainly lying anyway.

Why would you say that? I don't understand you.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you are the best teacher in the world, you can force kids that are out of control, to learn?

Thanks for admitting you are just making shit up to fit your preconceived notions.

Well... you have the right to be wrong. Good talking to you.

I have the right to know better.

Both of my parents were public school teachers. Both got awards for their work. Both got rehired as teachers after they retired. My father was a university professor. Both had their masters, and my father had a Ph.D.

Both of my parents agree with what I have written, and I have heard the same from other teachers.

I stand by my words as both truthful and accurate.

Do you honestly not realize how obvious it is that you are lying?

 

[anotherlife]

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools. Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry. Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.

No. States rights. The Feds have no business dictating how local schools work.

It should be the people that determine they want a better system, and change how the schools work in their communities.

No, because schools and property prices compete on the national level. So this must be done like an anti monopoly law, if we want any hope of stopping teacher unions, and throwing endless hard earned cash away.

 

[sealybobo]

All garbage.

First off, my parents are millionaires. And they were both public school teachers. Not only did both of them earn six-figure incomes by the end of their careers, but both of them went back to work after retiring, earning a full salary, plus their retirement.

"I believe teachers deserve high pay for a multitude of reasons"

No, 'teachers' do not deserve high pay. Good teachers, excellent teachers, award winning teachers, deserve high pay.

The vast majority of teachers are marginal, and many are just flat out crap. I had a teacher that would monotone a lecture for 30 minutes, and teach almost nothing.

Had another teacher that would push a VHS tape in (remember those?), hit play, and give a 'pop' quiz at the end of every single class.

That was his idea of "teaching".

So no, I reject this 'teachers deserve more' craziness. We have the most expensive, and least productive government funded school systems in the world. Most teachers should be paid less. A few should earn what they are getting, and a very tiny group should be paid a ton more because they are amazingly good at what they do and should be compensated.

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Most would prefer the pension. Girl teaches for 30 years she’s 61 years old. She gets a pension the rest of her life.

We should not offer pensions to new teachers. Just pay them what teaching is worth. I did the math. Teachers make more per day than the rest of us. Like teachers are off from December 15 to Jan 7. I get 4 days off.

Add up all their days off they make A LOT per day. Teaching is worth $50k a year 60 if you’re good.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

whatever. Lol

 

[sealybobo]

It you give vouchers without strings attached; that is the school can't reject the most damaged secondary ed kids, juvenile delinquents, and kids that are years behind their grade level then you will have much the same problems in private schools you have in public schools. This is why so many of the better private schools either restrict the number of vouchers they will accept or simply bow out all together.

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I remember in the 2000s when republicans were bashing private unions they always talked about these rubber rooms at GM where employees who didn’t have jobs would have to show up to in order to keep getting paid until they could find them a new job.

Looks like the same game plan going after theses public school union teachers.

I’d be worried if I were a teacher because republicans always get what they want. Eventually.

 

[sealybobo]

Yea a private school isn't going to take a troubled kid that's true. I'm sure it's easier teaching private school kids.

Which could be why some private schools can pay less than public schools.

View attachment 236196
Public schools are crap. That is part of the reason public school teachers are paid more. You have to pay them more, or they don't stay.

My sister was going to school for a degree in education, and was sent to an inner city school, where if you work there for a set number of years, you get your entire educational loans, forgiven.

She declined after one week. The students were crap, the staff was crap, there was chaos in the school room. It was hell.

This is the reality.

Don't tell my fellow conservatives any of this, of course. They either don't care, will just blame teachers more, or--as one in this thread did--say too bad for these kids, they're not mine so I don't care.

The conservative take on education makes me often ashamed. Even though I would never, ever go back to being a liberal (and I have some years behind this conversion: I haven't voted Dem since the late 90s). It's one thing to think the public schools are horrid or whatever. It's another to just not give a flip about kids that are in terrible situations there, or that teachers in those situations are regularly threatened, abused and worse.

Well the issue is, the teachers unions speak for teachers.... You can say "they don't speak for me!" but the fact is, the teachers unions stand up in the media and attack Republicans.

Additionally, the teachers unions do in fact, defend bad teachers. It just is true. The rubber rooms of New York are a perfect example. There is actually a documentary on "The Rubber Room".
Amazon.com: Watch Rubber Room | Prime Video

And lastly, the universal fix for all things school related, by both teachers and teachers unions... is more money.

They never have any other fix. I have never once heard a teacher say "We need to eliminate bad students", or "we need to change how we educate!"... or anything. It's always "we need more money". And we now have the most expensive education system in the world, and things are worse now than ever before.

Yet the fix is still the same... "We need more money! We need to pay teachers more!".

So naturally right-wingers and conservatives, and Republicans, don't like the teachers, and teachers unions.

Worse, every time Conservatives, Republicans, and right-leaning people come up with a helpful solution, the teachers and teachers unions start screaming and oppose it.

Charter schools and private schools, are better than public schools. There is no question. They use less money, and have better educational outcomes. Yet the teachers and teachers unions, have opposed this at every single turn.

They would rather doom kids to crappy education, at drug infested, chaos driven schools.... than have parents able to get a better education for their kids, at schools not controlled by the teachers unions or government.

So, yeah.... there is some real hatred and disdain for public school teachers and their unions.

I'm with you on the unions. I'm sure they started out by being helpful; by helping teachers not live by ridiculous rules and etc. But now they're a political apparatus. I don't belong to mine, which is....contentious, you might say. But there it is.

You're just wrong that we think the solution is always more money. We do talk about these things.

Secondly, part of the reason private and (some) charter schools do well is they do not take on behavior, emotional, or learning disabled children. They self-select only the best. Listen, if the public schools could do that, you'd better believe we'd do better. That and their parents are all motivated.

I'm not opposed to vouchers, but you best believe if the private schools accept them, they ALSO have to accept a cross section of children. If they accept tax dollars, they must accept taxpayers children...ALL of them. And then we will see what happens to their scores.

I wish you weren’t being protected by a union. They have to protect you and bargain for you even though you aren’t a member.

 

[sealybobo]

None of that bullshit you described happens today.

Having Christmas holidays is certainly a positive aspect of teaching as is having 8 weeks off in the summer but there are offsetting negative aspects of the job:

• Many people think teaching is just showing up for class 7 hours a day. What they don’t know is how many hours they actually spend prepping for the week. Teachers are up late at night grading papers scouring the Internet for ideas for class, answering emails from students and parents, grading papers and they spend their weekends doing the same. You also have to attend school dances, parent-teacher conferences, and extracurricular activities. Then there's surveys, attendance records, grade reporting, plus decorating the classroom, and purchasing supplies. When you add up these little jobs they are usually a lot more than 40 hours a week.
• Everyone knows that teachers are required to have a college education in most all districts. However, what a lot of people don't know is that in a number of states new teachers are required to obtain a Masters with in 3 to 5 years of employment.
• Teachers must also accumulate a certain number hours of continuing education which are additional classes they have to complete each year.
• Depending on the community, many parents have no regard for their child’s education which makes the teachers job very difficult. It's also extremely frustrating since school districts are increasing holding the teacher responsible for the progress of the student regardless of the situation at home.
• Compared to other professions, there are limited opportunities for advancement. Half of our teachers will never advance out of the classroom. As one teacher said, it's like going to school all your life and never graduating.

this list is not all that much different from what other e ecutives or workers have. In most jobs, you do need to prepare for your presentations, do your customer support work outside meting hours, and do these with only 2 weeks of vacation per year. So teachers are still wise guys who pulled it over everyone else. Very clever though. Hehehe.

I think the major difference between professional people in business and teachers is the opportunity of advancement. Most people that go into teaching give up the idea that they will every advance past the classroom. If you are lucky, you might become a department head with a small increase in pay and a lot of additional work plus teaching. Over half the teachers that remain in education retire as teachers. The opportunity for advance is slim at best. You don't get to be a principle without at least a Masters degree and if you hope to move up further you better plan on more education. Even with more education advancement is not likely. Unlike the business world, success does not equate to more money. Growth rates in education is relatively low compared to most businesses so you can't look forward to any end of year bonuses or major expansions. What you get in teaching as compensation is job security, a good retiremen. Without that it's just the satisfaction of teaching kids which grows pretty old after 20 years.

A friend of mine is retiring from teaching after 30 years. She has been an elementary teacher at the same school for 26 years in the same classroom. She loves teaching and loves kids. I have no doubt that she would continue teaching till the day she died but her health prevents it. The pay is immaterial. However, most teachers are not like this. They teach because they need a paycheck. If you want better education for your kids, you need to pay a salary that will attract better people. It's that simple.

How do you know that most teachers don't teach because they "love kids and love teaching"? How do you know most do it simply for the paycheck?

Where are your stats or your surveys on this...or are you just making crap up?

In 1975, more than one-fifth (22%) of college students majored in education. In 2015, it was just over 10%. Students are not turning away from education as a major because they no longer love kids or teaching. They don't major in education because there are a lot more opportunities and much higher pay in other fields. I taught college course for about 5 years and I can tell you the overriding factors in selecting a major was work after graduation. Can I get a job in the field? How much can I make? What's the advancement opportunities? Better salaries, better working conditions, and better opportunities attract better people. Maybe you think we really don't need our best people in the classroom, just people that love kids.

So I think we should ask Trump, to outlaw the usage of property taxes for schools. Then schools will have to charge families what they are actually worth, and the teacher unions would disappear as quickly as the corporate sector unions disappeared in the steel industry. Maybe we will even have new schools, and the inner city schools would close where they are not needed to begin with.

And parents who don’t want to or can’t afford to don’t send their kids to school. Or have a public option but you have to drive your kids to it. No more busses. And teachers can throw your kid out if you aren’t trying.

Maybe this will cut down on poverty birth rates.

Public schools were a great idea in the 1900s