Why would anyone continue to claim the iraqi war was a failure?

[JRK]

Yet....Clinton murdered 1 million Iraqi children under HIS watch through his international sanctions, and what of the innocent civilians he bombed and killed in Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and Serbia? I guess they don't matter:

Clinton’s Worst Crimes - The Ornery American

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ejxB2asnI

The cost we incurred during this 10 year period goes un-noticed also
to be honest
1991 is when this should have ended
Great thread

Unfortunately hypocrisy and misinformation goes on and on and on, its also disgusting to slander one President as being a mass murderer and a war criminal, while ignoring the actions of another which could also be compared to such, and even worse applauding one President for those actions. I am yet to applaud Bush for invading Iraq, or Clinton for his air bombing campaigns, but several people in this thread have beaten us to it.

I think a lot of people are asking the question, why didn't George Bush Sr end the war when he had won, rather than letting Saddam remain in power to terrorize his citizens and genocide Kurds with biological and chemical weapons, it could have been over well in 1991, we never got an answer from the US government, just silence, just like over Pinochet's dictatorship.

As I said when I negged geauxtohell "Take a red pill yourself. George Galloway would be proud", after all he has done nothing in this thread but support Saddam's regime.

PS: Since your new my personal advise is putting geauxtohell on your ignore list, some people in this forum don't deserve an answer (but that recent post of his struck a chord with me), then again I am not here to be popular and I don't care about getting negs for having an intellectual conscience and critical mind (not scared of dying for that either).

Good thread
thanks for the advice
What amazes me
I have no issue with peoples opinions

But to have the opinion that become the truth to so many people based on lies, innuendos and "no name sources"
we went from every-one wanting Saddam gone to "Bush lied people died"

 

[ABikerSailor]

I didn't want Saddam gone. I was actually on active duty during part of that time (retired in 2002), and I would have MUCH preferred that Jr. would have kept after Bin Laden.

When the invasion was announced, my first question was WHY?

 

[BlindBoo]

Why hasn't your Messiah® caught bin Laden? Why did your Messiah® claim that he would during the campaign, only the turn around and say bin Laden isn't important?

Why are both you and he such fucking hypocrites?

Hey stupid......it was BUSH JR. that said he was no longer concerned with OBL, and that was only 2 years after 9/11.

And......FWIW........Bush Jr. gave Bin Laden a 7 year head start to get hidden.

Wanna talk about how Jr. lost Bin Laden at Tora Bora?

What are you babbling about?
GWB gave Bin Ladin a what?
You mean Clinton?

LOL Because you feel that the Clinton Administration was a bastion of truth and honesty right?

Who was it that said "I don't care, dead or alive — either way It doesn't matter to me." And "I don't know whether we're going to get him tomorrow or a month from now or a year from now. I don't really know. But we're going to get him,"

 

[hipeter924]

I didn't want Saddam gone. I was actually on active duty during part of that time (retired in 2002), and I would have MUCH preferred that Jr. would have kept after Bin Laden.

When the invasion was announced, my first question was WHY?

I wanted Saddam gone, he was a genocidal dictator, I want Kim Jong Il and a lot of evil people gone. But my main issue with Iraq was the sanctions, same with my issue with North Korea, sanctions never help anyone save help the regime retain power, also western media and the US government calling on the people to rise up against Saddam led Saddam to become more psychotic, paranoid, and murderous than ever before, not to mention led to the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians who believed it.

You might say since the US started the mess in the 1980s it had to clean it up, it could have done so in 1991 but decided to wait till now, and though I hate to say it resources not the people mattered when Iraq was chosen as a target. But saying that, now it is done I have to support the war, even if I didn't like its methods as now that the sanctions are over, and Saddams terror is gone the nation can start to recover.

 

[BlindBoo]

why didn't George Bush Sr end the war when he had won, rather than letting Saddam remain in power to terrorize his citizens and genocide Kurds with biological and chemical weapons, it could have been over well in 1991, we never got an answer from the US government, just silence, just like over Pinochet's dictatorship.

In his own words:

Excerpt from "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam" by George Bush [Sr.] and Brent Scowcroft, Time (2 March 1998):


While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

13 years since it's been published!

Reasons Not to Invade Iraq,

 

[Uncensored2008]

Hey stupid......it was BUSH JR. that said he was no longer concerned with OBL, and that was only 2 years after 9/11.

Goddamn but you're fucking stupid - it's why you're a leftist:

{Barack Obama suggested last night that removing Osama bin Laden from the battlefield was no longer essential and that America's security goals could be achieved merely by keeping al-Qaeda "on the run".

"My preference obviously would be to capture or kill him," he said. "But if we have so tightened the noose that he's in a cave somewhere and can't even communicate with his operatives then we will meet our goal of protecting America." }
Barack Obama: it is no longer essential to kill Osama bin Laden - Times Online

 

[Uncensored2008]

Hey JeRK........OBL didn't take down the WTC on Clinton's watch.

Goddamn but you're fucking stupid.

It's why you're a leftist:

{The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. They received financing from Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. In March 1994,}

1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, that would be Al Qaeda #2, Khaled Shaikh Mohammed - reporting directly to Bin Laden, you fucking moron.

 

[JRK]

Hey JeRK........OBL didn't take down the WTC on Clinton's watch.

Goddamn but you're fucking stupid.

It's why you're a leftist:

{The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. They received financing from Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. In March 1994,}

1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, that would be Al Qaeda #2, Khaled Shaikh Mohammed - reporting directly to Bin Laden, you fucking moron.

It is amazing is it not?
The press went on a non stop group of lies on W so long they became the truth

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know.....speaking as someone who was actually over there in 1991 for Desert Storm, it was Bush Sr. that fucked up by stopping at the gates of Bagdad.

Oh yeah........Jr. saw an opportunity to attack Iraq after the WTC went down. And, because his father had fucked up previously, he saw a way to make up for it.

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

 

[Uncensored2008]

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Yeah, not like the squalor he endured living in Saudi Arabia, poor dear...

ROFL

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

Utterly irrelevant to anything.

 

[JRK]

You know.....speaking as someone who was actually over there in 1991 for Desert Storm, it was Bush Sr. that fucked up by stopping at the gates of Bagdad.

Oh yeah........Jr. saw an opportunity to attack Iraq after the WTC went down. And, because his father had fucked up previously, he saw a way to make up for it.

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

I agree with you assessment of 1991 110%
Not with the rest
and as far as OBL being in Tora Bora
did i miss something?
You think for one minute W would have not jumped at a chance to end his world

 

[geauxtohell]

[
Yet....Clinton murdered 1 million Iraqi children under HIS watch through his international sanctions, and what of the innocent civilians he bombed and killed in Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and Serbia? I guess they don't matter:

Yes. This notion obviously upsets you as it warranted a whooping 15 neg rep points from you, you big baby.

Once again, Clinton didn't get us into Iraq. Bush did.

You forgot Somalia. That was Clinton's major military screw up.

But we aren't really talking about Somalia, Sudan, Serbia, or even Clinton, are we?

This is about Iraq.

 

[geauxtohell]

Unfortunately hypocrisy and misinformation goes on and on and on, its also disgusting to slander one President as being a mass murderer and a war criminal,

As I said when I negged geauxtohell "Take a red pill yourself. George Galloway would be proud", after all he has done nothing in this thread but support Saddam's regime.

I ought to neg you for being a dishonest douchebag.

When did I call Bush a "murderer" or a "war criminal"? I've merely pointed out that Clinton didn't get us into Iraq. Bush did (since you guys keep wanting to talk about Clinton). Also, when have I "supported Saddam's regime". Not wanting American forces to participate does not equate to "support" for despotic regimes. You are making an argument for military intervention into every despotic nation in the world. After all, if we don't forcefully remove them, we must support them, right? Once again I am amazed that some of you consider yourselves libertarians and support this fucking nonsense.

while ignoring the actions of another which could also be compared to such, and even worse applauding one President for those actions. I am yet to applaud Bush for invading Iraq, or Clinton for his air bombing campaigns, but several people in this thread have beaten us to it.

The point of this thread is to talk about Bush invading Iraq. What in the fuck are you arguing for? Are you just here to smear Clinton? Lame.

I think a lot of people are asking the question, why didn't George Bush Sr end the war when he had won, rather than letting Saddam remain in power to terrorize his citizens and genocide Kurds with biological and chemical weapons, it could have been over well in 1991, we never got an answer from the US government, just silence, just like over Pinochet's dictatorship.

Because he knew it would lead to a long, protracted insurgency conflict with a large loss of American lives. Sr. was much smarter than Junior.

PS: Since your new my personal advise is putting geauxtohell on your ignore list,

Ignore lists are for babies that can't take the heat. I've responded to every post on this thread in a reasonable manner. If you want to ignore me, then go for it. It says more about you, than me. If you can't take disagreement on a political messageboard, you are in the wrong place.

some people in this forum don't deserve an answer (but that recent post of his struck a chord with me), then again I am not here to be popular and I don't care about getting negs for having an intellectual conscience and critical mind (not scared of dying for that either).

Intellectuals don't flee debate.

 

[geauxtohell]

You know.....speaking as someone who was actually over there in 1991 for Desert Storm, it was Bush Sr. that fucked up by stopping at the gates of Bagdad.

Oh yeah........Jr. saw an opportunity to attack Iraq after the WTC went down. And, because his father had fucked up previously, he saw a way to make up for it.

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

I agree with you assessment of 1991 110%
Not with the rest
and as far as OBL being in Tora Bora
did i miss something?
You think for one minute W would have not jumped at a chance to end his world

You really don't know anything about Afghanistan, do you?

It's known that OBL, and the rest of the AQ network, were in Tora Bora. We thought we had them surrounded. Unfortunately, the back side of our forces were Afghan warlords we had paid off. AQ paid them more and they ended up walking them to safety in Pakistan.

This isn't exactly a state secret.

Read a book or something.

 

[JRK]

You know.....speaking as someone who was actually over there in 1991 for Desert Storm, it was Bush Sr. that fucked up by stopping at the gates of Bagdad.

Oh yeah........Jr. saw an opportunity to attack Iraq after the WTC went down. And, because his father had fucked up previously, he saw a way to make up for it.

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

I agree with you assessment of 1991 110%
Not with the rest
and as far as OBL being in Tora Bora
did i miss something?
You think for one minute W would have not jumped at a chance to end his world

You really don't know anything about Afghanistan, do you?

It's known that OBL, and the rest of the AQ network, were in Tora Bora. We thought we had them surrounded. Unfortunately, the back side of our forces were Afghan warlords we had paid off. AQ paid them more and they ended up walking them to safety in Pakistan.

This isn't exactly a state secret.

Read a book or something.

And all of this information came from?
you have links?
let me add fat and sassy?
Why was Obama in a frenzy with the droid attacks in Pakistan?

Pakistan drone attacks to intensify, Obama officials say - CSMonitor.com
As Pakistan sharply rebukes United States Predator drone attacks inside Pakistani territory, the Obama administration plans to turn up the number of those attacks in Pakistan's restive tribal belt, according to news reports.

The controversial announcement comes as fierce fighting erupted between the Taliban and a homegrown militia force that the Pakistani government is backing against the extremist force, according to Dawn, an influential English newspaper in Pakistan.

Three police officials, two Lashkar (militia) men and sixteen militants were killed in [an] overnight clash between Taliban and Qaumi Lashkar in Buner district, police and residents said on Tuesday.
The fierce fighting erupted on Monday night when the Qaumi Lashkar and local police force made efforts to enter the Gokand valley via Rajagaly Kandow from Pir Baba side to flush out Taliban militants who had sneaked in to the district on Saturday from neighbouring Swat.
The Taliban, who have recently carved out a safe haven in the northern Swat Valley, are now pushing to seize control of neighboring Buner province, reports Agence France-Presse.

Residents and police officials said a group of some 60 Taliban militants armed with light and heavy weapons managed to cross from Swat and take control of the mountain top in neighbouring Buner district.
More fighting is expected in Buner, reports The Nation, a Pakistani daily.

The situation in Buner is further deteriorating when the Taliban militants have refused to leave the area after killing of four people including three policemen. People from all over scattered areas of Buner particularly from Daggar, Gagra and Gadezai Tehsil are consolidating their positions with a view to forcing the Taliban to return to Swat.
The possible spread of the Taliban out of the Swat Valley highlights the heated debate currently underway between Washington and Islamabad over how best to neutralize the militant group on either side of the Afghan border.

Since August 2008, some 37 predator attacks have killed 360 people along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan, according to Agence France-Presse.

But while those attacks may have proved effective in eliminating terrorist targets, they have sowed deep resentment among Pakistani officials and violent responses from the militants themselves.


By the way
take that bird and shove it up your butt

 

[geauxtohell]

And all of this information came from?
you have links?
let me add fat and sassy?

I don't know what you are talking about with "fat and sassy", but since you are too lazy to do your own research:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html
How bin Laden got away / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHBuKbTkCMbA45KIiEjxoaKTYQK5g&cad=rja
U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (washingtonpost.com)

Pakistan drone attacks to intensify, Obama officials say - CSMonitor.com
As Pakistan sharply rebukes United States Predator drone attacks inside Pakistani territory, the Obama administration plans to turn up the number of those attacks in Pakistan's restive tribal belt, according to news reports.

I have no idea what this has to do with the battle of Tora Bora. Are you incapable of staying on topic?

By the way
take that bird and shove it up your butt

You've already said this about three times.

 

[JRK]

And all of this information came from?
you have links?
let me add fat and sassy?

I don't know what you are talking about with "fat and sassy", but since you are too lazy to do your own research:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html
How bin Laden got away / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHBuKbTkCMbA45KIiEjxoaKTYQK5g&cad=rja
U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (washingtonpost.com)

Pakistan drone attacks to intensify, Obama officials say - CSMonitor.com
As Pakistan sharply rebukes United States Predator drone attacks inside Pakistani territory, the Obama administration plans to turn up the number of those attacks in Pakistan's restive tribal belt, according to news reports.

I have no idea what this has to do with the battle of Tora Bora. Are you incapable of staying on topic?

By the way
take that bird and shove it up your butt

You've already said this about three times.

You know I do not know why I allowed this conversation with you to go this far
as far as OBL getting away I still miss your point
If your trying to blame some one that there is murderer loose in a ass backwards country in the desert, you might want to look at the murderer to start with
without him none of this exist, I know as a liberal accountability is a concept you do not understand
This will make it 4 and for the last time
take that bird and shove it up your ass
as soon I get thru with this post you will be on ignore the next time I see that
you are not too be taken seriously. anyone who goes thru life thinking that is the correct way to be a man either has had everything give to him or is making someones life a living hell
I mean this
Good Luck
being different is one thing, being a dick head is stupid

 

[Uncle Kenny]

You know.....speaking as someone who was actually over there in 1991 for Desert Storm, it was Bush Sr. that fucked up by stopping at the gates of Bagdad.

Oh yeah........Jr. saw an opportunity to attack Iraq after the WTC went down. And, because his father had fucked up previously, he saw a way to make up for it.

That is why OBL is still running around. Shit.......after he left Tora Bora he was living fat and happy in the Swat valley. If we'd actually paid attention, we'd have known that several years ago.

Question Uncensored, exactly how many years have YOU served in the military?

I understand the opinion, but disagree. I served from 1989 to 1997 in the U.S. Army including operations in Kuwait, Pakistan and Afghanistan as well as out loading, but not deploying to Panama. I was not happy with the decision to stop at liberation at the time, but the cost didn't justify the potential advantage in 1991. Bush Jr. had two additional advantages in going in when he did that made it much more critical and reasonable.

1st, the Iraqi military was non-existent and the completion could be extremely fast and allow for change of leadership almost immediately. The risk was less therefore making the action more attractive and making the costs less. In 1991 there were still significant military resources to overcome which would have been much slower and more costly in treasure and life. The change of power would also have been even more difficult.

Consider estimates of an invasion of forces in 1991 would have surpassed the casualty counts for Iraq and Afghanistan to date, in total. Just on the initial conquest of the capital. That would have then touched off a power vacuum at a point when all groups were better armed and prepared.

2nd, When W went in, we needed a battlefield, in 1991 we didn't. After Afghanistan drew almost no visible external support and proved to be inadequate, the idea of a battlefield in Iraq became extremely attractive and valuable. Iraq is a nation that has geographic significance, wealthy resources and an unpopular secular king that was unlikely to justify a mainstream reaction, while almost guaranteeing extremist attention. We chose to fight them there and not here; and Iraq was ideal for that end.

Despite the numerous accused motives, this was the most important motive for the Iraq war. We obviously couldn’t state this as a motive, but it is counter-intuitive not to see that this was a highly desirable option given the likelihood of additional foreign attacks.

Of course we would rebuild and establish democratic process and that would have a long term potential benefit for both the U.S. and the theatre, but forcing the bloodshed out of our streets and into another venue was paramount and agree or disagree that was a prime directive for going to war in Iraq that wasn't of consequence in 1991.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hey......you pretty much summed up why Jr. wanted to go into Iraq.

Oil and money.

 

[Uncle Kenny]

Hey......you pretty much summed up why Jr. wanted to go into Iraq.

Oil and money.

If that is what you read, you should probably get some help for that eye issue. Well more help than the pot you have obviously been smoking. Either way, Oil and money were available and not pilfered nearly well enough to justify that line of assertion. Of course it makes for a nice dismissive comment when someone can't come up with anything of actual consequence or insight to say.

Well done

To paraphrase for clarity ( that means here is the short version) we went for reasons of national security (to pre-empt additional domestic attacks, by creating a battlefield that would draw our enemies out in open combat) and for long-term benefits (Middle Eastern democracy, alliance with a critical international region).

Oil and money wouldn't justify the cost, just do the math. We would have had to make Iraq a collony for that to be posible and even then not necessarily probable.