Will more guns create a safer society?

[Derideo_Te]

But I am thinking of a long term cultural shift by requiring all 18 year olds attend boot camp. In 2 decades or so their kids will have grown up with the boot camp graduates and not have had unfettered access to firearms any longer. We aren't going to solve this problem overnight in my opinion.

Yeah, Germany had a program like that....worked out well for them....

Invoking Godwin's Law means that you have just conceded your position in this thread. Have a nice day!

 

[2aguy]

Your gun fetish paranoia is no reason to jeopardize the safety of hundreds of millions of American citizens.

Well, hundreds of millions aren't in jeapordy....each year the FBI stats show that gun murders are only 8-9000....

Studies of guns used to save lives and stop violent criminal attack puts the average yearly number at 1.6 million....

So...in truth, your irrational fear of guns is no reason to jeopardize 1.6 million Americans and turn them into victims of rape, beatings, stabbings, torture and murder.....

And those who carry guns...protect others around them because it deters violent behavior of criminals...

 

[2aguy]

Invoking Godwin's Law means that you have just conceded your position in this thread. Have a nice day!

You know what we really need...an internet "law" that states when a liberal is losing an article and simply declares victory...because they don't want to address the truth, facts or common sense....then they lose....which is in fact, the truth....

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[Derideo_Te]

You fallaciously equate registration of firearms with banning of firearms. No one but you has made that erroneous claim.

That is an interesting assertion though ...

Not saying that government does or doesn't want to confiscate weapons ... Why would a registry be necessary? If they just wanted a list ... What would they do with the list ... What is the reason they need a list?

.

Accountability.

If you own a firearm you must be accountable for it. Taking responsibility to ensure that it is either in your possession or safeguarded from where someone else cannot get their hands on it.

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Your gun fetish paranoia is no reason to jeopardize the safety of hundreds of millions of American citizens.

Well, hundreds of millions aren't in jeapordy....each year the FBI stats show that gun murders are only 8-9000....

Studies of guns used to save lives and stop violent criminal attack puts the average yearly number at 1.6 million....

So...in truth, your irrational fear of guns is no reason to jeopardize 1.6 million Americans and turn them into victims of rape, beatings, stabbings, torture and murder.....

And those who carry guns...protect others around them because it deters violent behavior of criminals...

You haven't proven that there is any legitimate basis whatsoever for your gun fetish paranoia.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Invoking Godwin's Law means that you have just conceded your position in this thread. Have a nice day!

You know what we really need...an internet "law" that states when a liberal is losing an article and simply declares victory...because they don't want to address the truth, facts or common sense....then they lose....which is in fact, the truth....

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Only person "losing" in this thread is the one suffering from gun fetish paranoia.

 

[2aguy]

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

Gun registration does not prevent crime and does not help solve crime...what it does is separate one step in the process of banning and mandatory turn ins....and it costs police dept. lots of money, time and manpower on a useless data colllection process...


If a gun is stolen by a drug user...he trades it for drugs with a drug dealer who sells it to a gang member....none of them registers the weapon....it would still be registered to Joe citizen who had it stolen....now gang banger goes out and kills a rival or accidentally kills an innocent person....they toss the gun....police find the gun...hey...this gun bleongs to Joe Citizen...

No crime was prevented, no crime was solved by registering that gun....it did cost the local police dept. time to process the gun registration, money to set up the registry, and to process and keep track of the numbers, and money and time of officers or support staff to process and maintain the registry.....for something that won't prevent a crime or solve a crime....

Gun Registration is the anti gunners drream...then, when the next shooting happens and they can drag dead bodies in front of lap dog, anti gun media, then if they finally have the votes, they can pass a ban on certain types of weapons or in their dream of dreams, a mnadatory turn in....they won't have to get people to register their guns first...that will have been taken care of before hand, when the law abiding gun owners were told that the registry would not be used for a ban or a mandatory turn in....

A lawful gun owner does't want their guns to be used in a crime...but has the sense to understand that background checks and gun registration doesn't prevent or solve crimes.....

Only anti gunners with an irrational fear of guns believe that nonsense....

 

[2aguy]

You haven't proven that there is any legitimate basis whatsoever for your gun fetish paranoia.

You mean other than the 17 studies that I post all the time....out of 19 studies mentioned in the obama CDC report....conducted over a 40 year period, by different researchers, both private and government researchers, that show on average that guns are used to save lives and stop violent criminal attack 1.6 million times.....


Those 1.6 million people would say there is an absolute legitimate basis to own and carry guns for self defense....would you prefer that those 1.6 million people be raped, beaten, stabbed, robbed, tortured, or murdered instead...? Well...if you want those people disarmed...you must prefer that they suffer those fates....right? Since 1.6 million people will now be victims if you get your way...right?

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[2aguy]

Here is a table from the CDC on child deaths by cause from 2010...guns are way, way down on the list....why is it that people with an irrational, bordering on psychotic fear of guns focus on guns...rather than supporting groups trying to prevent the real killers of children....?

2011 Top 20 Causes Of Childhood Accidental Death Extrano s Alley a gun blog

With more than 67 million “children” by definition in the United States, the childhood firearms accident death rate demonstrate how far we have come:

0.000001164 percent of children were killed in a gun accident in 2011.

The 2011 accidental firearms death rate among children was 0.1164 per 100,000, equivalent to 1.164 accidental death per million children.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

As studies show:

Guns don t offer protection whatever the National Rifle Association says Science The Guardian
Indeed, the evidence suggests the very act of being armed changes one's perception of others to a decidedly more paranoid one. Other studies have shown an element of racial priming too, where a black subject is more likely to be assumed to be carrying a weapon. Guns have a curious psychological effect beyond this: a 2006 study by Dr Jennifer Klinesmith and colleagues showed men exposed to firearms before an experiment had much higher testosterone levels and were three times more likely to engage in aggressive behaviour relative to the subjects not primed with a weapon.

Gun aficionados often frame the debate in terms of protection, but it is vital to realise that the vast majority of rape and murder victims are not harmed by nefarious strangers, but by people they know, and often love – friends, family members, lovers. Far from protecting people and keeping families safe, the sad truth is that firearms are often used in episodes of domestic violence. The John Hopkins centre for gun policy research has some sobering facts on this; women living in a home with one or more guns were three times more likely to be murdered; for women who had been abused by their partner, their risk of being murdered rose fivefold if the partner owned a gun

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Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates

If you have a gun in the home, you are automatically at greater risk for homicide in your own home by a gun.

Same reason I don't keep dynamite in my garage, I don't need it.

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home Findings from a National Study
Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

Problem isn't the tools we use to express our violent inclinations, but that we have those inclinations in the first place. Isn't like prior to someone inventing firearms we all got along fine with each other. We still had wars and mass casualties. All the statistics in the world aren't going to convince gun-lovers to relinquish their firearms because you wanna pass legislation banning them. Some will always want their firearms just as in times past some kept their swords or other weapons.

Until we can curtail criminality from the womb onwards we'll always have crime and a need for self-defense. Until violent crime is reduced the level of freak occurence you're never going to convince American gun owners to turn in their weapons.

 

[Derideo_Te]

You haven't proven that there is any legitimate basis whatsoever for your gun fetish paranoia.

You mean other than the 17 studies that I post all the time....out of 19 studies mentioned in the obama CDC report....conducted over a 40 year period, by different researchers, both private and government researchers, that show on average that guns are used to save lives and stop violent criminal attack 1.6 million times.....


Those 1.6 million people would say there is an absolute legitimate basis to own and carry guns for self defense....would you prefer that those 1.6 million people be raped, beaten, stabbed, robbed, tortured, or murdered instead...? Well...if you want those people disarmed...you must prefer that they suffer those fates....right? Since 1.6 million people will now be victims if you get your way...right?

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Seek professional help for your gun fetish paranoia.

 

[BlackSand]

You fallaciously equate registration of firearms with banning of firearms. No one but you has made that erroneous claim.

That is an interesting assertion though ...

Not saying that government does or doesn't want to confiscate weapons ... Why would a registry be necessary? If they just wanted a list ... What would they do with the list ... What is the reason they need a list?

.

Accountability.

If you own a firearm you must be accountable for it. Taking responsibility to ensure that it is either in your possession or safeguarded from where someone else cannot get their hands on it.

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

Registry doesn't include storage and use. It is already illegal for criminals to own firearms ... And what threat does a lawful gun owner pose? If they are law abiding, what does that do towards crime prevention?

Registering legally owned firearms held by law-abiding citizens has no practical purpose other than accounting for weapons owned by people who already aren't breaking the law. Any other use of the list by the government would result in activities intended to restrict firearms ... Whether or not they use criminals as an excuse.

They would do better to police the criminals than harass the law-abiding citizens.

.

 

[2aguy]

Here is a good look at a lot of stats on gun ownership, gun crime and gun deaths...this is about the death rate of children and guns.....

Guns and Violence in the United States By the Numbers - The Truth About Guns

Firearms and Children: Declining Murders and Accidents
The last refuge for those without a logical leg to stand on is “think of the children!” OK, let’s think about the children for a second in terms of guns.

According to the CDC, the number of firearms related fatalities for “children” has been steadily falling over the last two decades even without more restrictive gun control laws.

]

I put children in quotation marks because, while some people consider 24 year old people to still be children, my cut-off is the age at which the state lets you operate a 2-ton moving death machine unsupervised in public (16). The reason that this age bracket is used by gun control advocacy groups, as I outlined in this article, is that this is the age range in which most gang related crime is committed.

Some estimates put the percentage of gang related murders in the United States at around 80%, indicating that the issue isn’t the availability of guns but the prevalence of gangs and the related violence.

Let’s move away from the murders for a second. Gun control advocates love to use the image of a child who accidentally shot themselves or someone else and died after “playing” with a gun. It evokes a parental response, making you feel like you need to “do something” to prevent such tragedies. And while those incidents do happen, it’s extremely rare — and getting rarer by the year.

Notice that distinctive downward trend? Yeah, I did too. Nevermind the fact that this happens to less than 150 kids every year, the fact of the matter is that the “problem” of kids accidentally killing themselves or others with a gun is one that is disappearing. Instead of increasing as more guns are being sold to the U.S. population, not only is the raw number of kids being killed in this matter staying relatively stable but it even seems to be declining.

 

[Derideo_Te]

You fallaciously equate registration of firearms with banning of firearms. No one but you has made that erroneous claim.

That is an interesting assertion though ...

Not saying that government does or doesn't want to confiscate weapons ... Why would a registry be necessary? If they just wanted a list ... What would they do with the list ... What is the reason they need a list?

.

Accountability.

If you own a firearm you must be accountable for it. Taking responsibility to ensure that it is either in your possession or safeguarded from where someone else cannot get their hands on it.

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

Registry doesn't include storage and use. It is already illegal for criminals to own firearms ... And what threat does a lawful gun owner pose? If they are law abiding, what does that do towards crime prevention?

Registering legally owned firearms held by law-abiding citizens has no practical purpose other than accounting for weapons owned by people who already aren't breaking the law. Any other use of the list by the government would result in activities intended to restrict firearms ... Whether or not they use criminals as an excuse.

They would do better to police the criminals than harass the law-abiding citizens.

.

Are you saying that no guns are ever stolen from law abiding gun owners?

Are you also saying that no law abiding gun owner has ever had their gun fall into the hands of children with fatal results?

Accountability means just that. Law abiding gun owners must be held accountable for their lethal weapons.

I find it odd that those that demand that the least fortunate members of society must be accountable for their situation but those that own guns are somehow exempt from any accountability.

We the People are adults and as such we must be accountable without exception in my opinion.

 

[2aguy]

And here is another analysis of 24 year old "children" included in child gun deaths....

NY Times Keeping Guns Away from Children is Pure Propaganda - The Truth About Guns

 

[Skull Pilot]

People do not own guns to protect "society"
People do not own guns to protect the public
People own guns because they choose to exercise their legal right to do so.
Their reasons for doing so are none of you god damned business.

That said If I saw any of you people getting mugged or if I saw someone breaking into your home I would not draw my weapon to protect you.

If you choose not to exercise your legal right to own a firearm and instead trust the government to protect you and yours I will respect your choice and dial 911.

All I ask is you respect my choices.

 

[2aguy]

Are you saying that no guns are ever stolen from law abiding gun owners?

Are you also saying that no law abiding gun owner has ever had their gun fall into the hands of children with fatal results?

Accountability means just that. Law abiding gun owners must be held accountable for their lethal weapons.

I find it odd that those that demand that the least fortunate members of society must be accountable for their situation but those that own guns are somehow exempt from any accountability.

We the People are adults and as such we must be accountable without exception in my opinion.

No...you don't want accountability...you want to punish the gun owner if someone breaks into their home and takes their weapon....if a gun is stolen, the gun owner is the victim, not the perpetrator...if the gun owner leaves their gun on their front lawn unattended...then we can talk....but that isn't what you want...your irrational fear is driving you to look for ways to punish people who want to own the very thing that terrifies you....

Are you also saying that no law abiding gun owner has ever had their gun fall into the hands of children with fatal results?

This tragedy happens under 100 times a year....out of a population of 310 million people....and so your irrational fear wants you to take guns out of the hands of people because of 100 accidents a year....yeah...that isn't irrational...that is bordering on psychotic....

If you want to keep saying law abiding gun owners are paranoid and have a fetish, I am more than happy to examine your psychosis about guns....

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[2aguy]

Here is another look from the previous post....


NY Times Keeping Guns Away from Children is Pure Propaganda - The Truth About Guns

While there are many things we don’t see eye to eye about, there’s one thing that my anti-gun mother does agree with me on: 24 year olds aren’t “children.” Anyone old enough to have a driver’s license no longer bears that label to me. And yet, the New York Times has decided to include people up to the age of 24 in their chart.

The reason? They want to bolster their numbers with gang related violence. Otherwise, their own argument falls apart.

Let’s take a peek into the CDC’s data and figure out exactly how many of these deaths that they reported actually involved small children:

I pulled that data from the CDC’s website last night. Personally, I would have set the cut-off point for “children” at 15. But then again I didn’t have an agenda to push.

The five years between 20 and 24 account for 1/5 of the population under investigation (these “children”), but provide the majority of the body count. Throw in another fifth (15 to 19) and you’ve got damn near 80% of the fatalities among the population being studied.

What the article would like to have you believe is that small children are being murdered and killing themselves because of the presence of firearms in the country, but that’s just not true. The leading cause of death for children is accidental, not murder. And among the murders committed in this country,some people place as many as 77% of those in the category of “gang related violence.”

We’re not talking about little 5 year old Suzie, children like those involved in the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting. We’re talking about adults. And specifically hardened criminals killing other criminals in most cases of homicide.

As for the rest of the murders, there’s nothing indicating that those murders would not have happened if guns were not available. England has almost no civilian firearms ownership, but their murder rate rivals the United States and is on the rise — the US, by the way, has seen a decrease in the murder rate even as firearms ownership has increased.

Yes....let's look at that one factiod that ruins the anti gun argument....

Throw in another fifth (15 to 19) and you’ve got damn near 80% of the fatalities among the population being studied

 

[BlackSand]

You fallaciously equate registration of firearms with banning of firearms. No one but you has made that erroneous claim.

That is an interesting assertion though ...

Not saying that government does or doesn't want to confiscate weapons ... Why would a registry be necessary? If they just wanted a list ... What would they do with the list ... What is the reason they need a list?

.

Accountability.

If you own a firearm you must be accountable for it. Taking responsibility to ensure that it is either in your possession or safeguarded from where someone else cannot get their hands on it.

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

Registry doesn't include storage and use. It is already illegal for criminals to own firearms ... And what threat does a lawful gun owner pose? If they are law abiding, what does that do towards crime prevention?

Registering legally owned firearms held by law-abiding citizens has no practical purpose other than accounting for weapons owned by people who already aren't breaking the law. Any other use of the list by the government would result in activities intended to restrict firearms ... Whether or not they use criminals as an excuse.

They would do better to police the criminals than harass the law-abiding citizens.

.

Are you saying that no guns are ever stolen from law abiding gun owners?

Are you also saying that no law abiding gun owner has ever had their gun fall into the hands of children with fatal results?

Accountability means just that. Law abiding gun owners must be held accountable for their lethal weapons.

I find it odd that those that demand that the least fortunate members of society must be accountable for their situation but those that own guns are somehow exempt from any accountability.

We the People are adults and as such we must be accountable without exception in my opinion.

Stolen weapons are stolen by criminals ... And law-abiding citizens report stolen weapons with the authorities. I have a registry of my weapons including serial numbers and descriptions ... And if they are ever stolen the government will know about it in the official report.

If someone steals your car and runs over someone else ... They don't charge you with vehicular homicide and take your ability to own a car away.

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[Derideo_Te]

You fallaciously equate registration of firearms with banning of firearms. No one but you has made that erroneous claim.

That is an interesting assertion though ...

Not saying that government does or doesn't want to confiscate weapons ... Why would a registry be necessary? If they just wanted a list ... What would they do with the list ... What is the reason they need a list?

.

Accountability.

If you own a firearm you must be accountable for it. Taking responsibility to ensure that it is either in your possession or safeguarded from where someone else cannot get their hands on it.

Crime prevention.

If all guns are registered to their lawful owners who are held accountable for them per the point above then they cannot be used to commit crimes.

Why wouldn't a lawful gun owner be willing to be accountable for their own guns and participate in crime prevention?

Registry doesn't include storage and use. It is already illegal for criminals to own firearms ... And what threat does a lawful gun owner pose? If they are law abiding, what does that do towards crime prevention?

Registering legally owned firearms held by law-abiding citizens has no practical purpose other than accounting for weapons owned by people who already aren't breaking the law. Any other use of the list by the government would result in activities intended to restrict firearms ... Whether or not they use criminals as an excuse.

They would do better to police the criminals than harass the law-abiding citizens.

.

Are you saying that no guns are ever stolen from law abiding gun owners?

Are you also saying that no law abiding gun owner has ever had their gun fall into the hands of children with fatal results?

Accountability means just that. Law abiding gun owners must be held accountable for their lethal weapons.

I find it odd that those that demand that the least fortunate members of society must be accountable for their situation but those that own guns are somehow exempt from any accountability.

We the People are adults and as such we must be accountable without exception in my opinion.

Stolen weapons are stolen by criminals ... And law-abiding citizens report stolen weapons with the authorities. I have a registry of my weapons including serial numbers and descriptions ... And if they are ever stolen the government will know about it in the official report.

.

You are a responsible gun owner. Can you say the same for the other 80 million gun owners?

You also failed to address the issue of accountability. Do you agree that I am accountable for insuring my vehicles so that if it is involved in an accident that should someone be injured there will be funds to pay for their injuries? Why shouldn't the same accountability apply to guns?