Ya think the Russians haven't calculated we have a weak paper-tiger for president?

[orogenicman]

Another Putin mancrush thread, nice!

Listen, this horseshit that Obama is week and perceived that way abroad is absolute balderdash. I thought that Obummer, or whatever you guys call him, indiscriminately took out his foes with drone-strikes?

Putin is getting his ass kicked by sanctions and he isn't talking so tough these days. Don't let that keep you traitors from bopping your Bologna, though!

You're right, of course ... how could we have been so foolish?

Putin isn't talking tough today .... he's just rolling troops into a sovereign country. Man, that Obama just scares the bejesus out of him, doesn't he?

Saber rattling is not the act of a confident man.

Putin is not rattling sabres. People in Ukraine are dying. Cities are under siege with the presence of Russian troops.
The Russians shot down a commercial aircraft and our Dear Leader pissed his pants.
Now you will query once again in an attempt to ask a "trap" question, "what should Obama have done?"
Well step one would have been to freeze all Russian assets in US banks. Also, ban Russian stocks from being traded on any US Based exchange. Ban trading in the US of Russian based oil.
See, we could bring Russia to its knees without so much as mentioning sanctions. And that is because Russia's economy rises and falls on oil and natural gas.

So we should take steps that the Europeans (who are at far more risk than we are) aren't taking, why? I agree that Russia's economy depends on oil and gas. So does ours. And since the price of oil and gas is plummeting, do you not understand what effect that is having in Russia?

It is never surprising just exactly how twisted, contorted, and convoluted the left will manipulate reality in order to provide some whimsical basis to justify the actions of Obama. Not surprising ... but disappointing.

The short answer is yes, we should take steps that the Europeans aren't taking ... because that's our role, no matter how quick Obama is to abdicate it. Only we have the economic force to do it. Only we have the oil and energy resources to apply any serious pressure.

If you look at each of the proposals put forth, none of them - with the exception of using NATO (which, incidentally, is most significantly a US supported action) - have the resources. Only we can significantly impact the price of oil - Germany can't.

Your question becomes nebulous and unrealistic when faced with real facts.Tell me --- why is the price of oil and gas plummeting? What has the EU done to cause that? What possible impact could the EU have on it?

Once again, since the price of oil is plummeting along with Russia's economy, what, if any, actions do you think the U.S. needs to take that it hasn't already? And loose change, the only one of us two making this about Obama is you. Don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.

 

[bendog]

Roudy -

No, I'm not saying that.

The important thing is that you KNOW that the premise of this thread is nonsense. And you do know that, now. You do KNOW that you are wrong.

I'm not going to demand that you answer questions that we both know you don't have the balls to answer honestly.

You are claiming that Russian behavior today has nothing to do with their perception of Obama as a weak and indecisive leader. Whereas the fact that Obama's foreign policy has been a disaster, is indisputable. Putin already calculated the worst case scenario of ineffective sanctions and Obama's meaningless speeches and empty threats, when he decided to invade and annex Crimea. Unfortunately Obama's extremely shallow experience, is no match for Putin's long history on the international scene and background as KJB chief.

As you can see, the West has already given up on Crimea, and now we're talking about preventing further aggression. The Russians are literally three moves ahead in this international chess game.

Putin did the same in Georgia when BushII was potus. I'm no fan of Obama, but Bushii's response then was much more girlie man than Obama's

 

[orogenicman]

Roudy -

No, I'm not saying that.

The important thing is that you KNOW that the premise of this thread is nonsense. And you do know that, now. You do KNOW that you are wrong.

I'm not going to demand that you answer questions that we both know you don't have the balls to answer honestly.

You are claiming that Russian behavior today has nothing to do with their perception of Obama as a weak and indecisive leader. Whereas the fact that Obama's foreign policy has been a disaster, is indisputable. Putin already calculated the worst case scenario of ineffective sanctions and Obama's meaningless speeches and empty threats, when he decided to invade and annex Crimea. Unfortunately Obama's extremely shallow experience, is no match for Putin's long history on the international scene and background as KJB chief.

As you can see, the West has already given up on Crimea, and now we're talking about preventing further aggression. The Russians are literally three moves ahead in this international chess game.

Putin did the same in Georgia when BushII was potus. I'm no fan of Obama, but Bushii's response then was much more girlie man than Obama's

What response?

 

[bendog]

Bushii had no response, but the sanctions are having, and will have, effects on the Russian populace. Ironically the falling ruble and the fact that Russia is paid in dollars for its energy exports is causing the Russian govt to have a windfall of rubles. BushII was a pariah internationally. Obama is not.

 

[Mr Natural]

Who gives a flying fuck what the Russians think of us?

 

[Spare_change]

You're right, of course ... how could we have been so foolish?

Putin isn't talking tough today .... he's just rolling troops into a sovereign country. Man, that Obama just scares the bejesus out of him, doesn't he?

Saber rattling is not the act of a confident man.

Putin is not rattling sabres. People in Ukraine are dying. Cities are under siege with the presence of Russian troops.
The Russians shot down a commercial aircraft and our Dear Leader pissed his pants.
Now you will query once again in an attempt to ask a "trap" question, "what should Obama have done?"
Well step one would have been to freeze all Russian assets in US banks. Also, ban Russian stocks from being traded on any US Based exchange. Ban trading in the US of Russian based oil.
See, we could bring Russia to its knees without so much as mentioning sanctions. And that is because Russia's economy rises and falls on oil and natural gas.

So we should take steps that the Europeans (who are at far more risk than we are) aren't taking, why? I agree that Russia's economy depends on oil and gas. So does ours. And since the price of oil and gas is plummeting, do you not understand what effect that is having in Russia?

It is never surprising just exactly how twisted, contorted, and convoluted the left will manipulate reality in order to provide some whimsical basis to justify the actions of Obama. Not surprising ... but disappointing.

The short answer is yes, we should take steps that the Europeans aren't taking ... because that's our role, no matter how quick Obama is to abdicate it. Only we have the economic force to do it. Only we have the oil and energy resources to apply any serious pressure.

If you look at each of the proposals put forth, none of them - with the exception of using NATO (which, incidentally, is most significantly a US supported action) - have the resources. Only we can significantly impact the price of oil - Germany can't.

Your question becomes nebulous and unrealistic when faced with real facts.Tell me --- why is the price of oil and gas plummeting? What has the EU done to cause that? What possible impact could the EU have on it?

Once again, since the price of oil is plummeting along with Russia's economy, what, if any, actions do you think the U.S. needs to take that it hasn't already? And loose change, the only one of us two making this about Obama is you. Don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.

Sorry --- based on your comments, I figured stupid is where I needed to go.

We can see that the sanctions currently in place have had no primary effect - to stop Putin's aggression in the Ukraine. Thus, it is time to step to the second level. 'Tis better to do it quickly, than to let it fester.

 

[Spare_change]

Bushii had no response, but the sanctions are having, and will have, effects on the Russian populace. Ironically the falling ruble and the fact that Russia is paid in dollars for its energy exports is causing the Russian govt to have a windfall of rubles. BushII was a pariah internationally. Obama is not.

You're exactly correct ----- the Russian PEOPLE. Putin is not suffering ... think of it just like taking a band-aid off. It's better to do it quickly, than to drag the pain out. Increase the economic pressure, and the Russian PEOPLE will see to it a change is made. Until then, Putin will sit comfortably in his dacha and whine about what is happening to the people he doesn't give a damn about.

Your observations of the Bush and Obama foreign policies are a joke ... I hope. I will agree, though, Obama is not a pariah; he's comic relief.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

No, I'm not saying that.

The important thing is that you KNOW that the premise of this thread is nonsense. And you do know that, now. You do KNOW that you are wrong.

I'm not going to demand that you answer questions that we both know you don't have the balls to answer honestly.

You are claiming that Russian behavior today has nothing to do with their perception of Obama as a weak and indecisive leader. Whereas the fact that Obama's foreign policy has been a disaster, is indisputable. Putin already calculated the worst case scenario of ineffective sanctions and Obama's meaningless speeches and empty threats, when he decided to invade and annex Crimea. Unfortunately Obama's extremely shallow experience, is no match for Putin's long history on the international scene and background as KJB chief.

As you can see, the West has already given up on Crimea, and now we're talking about preventing further aggression. The Russians are literally three moves ahead in this international chess game.

Putin did the same in Georgia when BushII was potus. I'm no fan of Obama, but Bushii's response then was much more girlie man than Obama's

What response?

The 2008 experience is instructive. What the United States did was it sent warships to the Black Sea, and it took the combat troops that Georgia had in Afghanistan and airlifted them back, sending a very strong message to Putin that you're going to be facing combat-trained, combat-experienced Georgian forces. And not only that, but the United States government is willing to give logistical support to get them there. And this stopped Russian troops at the two enclaves, and they did not make a move at Tbilisi. We need similar strong movement now.

 

[Spare_change]

Roudy -

No, I'm not saying that.

The important thing is that you KNOW that the premise of this thread is nonsense. And you do know that, now. You do KNOW that you are wrong.

I'm not going to demand that you answer questions that we both know you don't have the balls to answer honestly.

You are claiming that Russian behavior today has nothing to do with their perception of Obama as a weak and indecisive leader. Whereas the fact that Obama's foreign policy has been a disaster, is indisputable. Putin already calculated the worst case scenario of ineffective sanctions and Obama's meaningless speeches and empty threats, when he decided to invade and annex Crimea. Unfortunately Obama's extremely shallow experience, is no match for Putin's long history on the international scene and background as KJB chief.

As you can see, the West has already given up on Crimea, and now we're talking about preventing further aggression. The Russians are literally three moves ahead in this international chess game.

Putin did the same in Georgia when BushII was potus. I'm no fan of Obama, but Bushii's response then was much more girlie man than Obama's

What response?

The 2008 experience is instructive. What the United States did was it sent warships to the Black Sea, and it took the combat troops that Georgia had in Afghanistan and airlifted them back, sending a very strong message to Putin that you're going to be facing combat-trained, combat-experienced Georgian forces. And not only that, but the United States government is willing to give logistical support to get them there. And this stopped Russian troops at the two enclaves, and they did not make a move at Tbilisi. We need similar strong movement now.

Take a position, and be willing to defend it?????? Wow!!! Who woulda thunk???

Probably need a red line in the sand, huh?

 

[orogenicman]

Saber rattling is not the act of a confident man.

Putin is not rattling sabres. People in Ukraine are dying. Cities are under siege with the presence of Russian troops.
The Russians shot down a commercial aircraft and our Dear Leader pissed his pants.
Now you will query once again in an attempt to ask a "trap" question, "what should Obama have done?"
Well step one would have been to freeze all Russian assets in US banks. Also, ban Russian stocks from being traded on any US Based exchange. Ban trading in the US of Russian based oil.
See, we could bring Russia to its knees without so much as mentioning sanctions. And that is because Russia's economy rises and falls on oil and natural gas.

So we should take steps that the Europeans (who are at far more risk than we are) aren't taking, why? I agree that Russia's economy depends on oil and gas. So does ours. And since the price of oil and gas is plummeting, do you not understand what effect that is having in Russia?

It is never surprising just exactly how twisted, contorted, and convoluted the left will manipulate reality in order to provide some whimsical basis to justify the actions of Obama. Not surprising ... but disappointing.

The short answer is yes, we should take steps that the Europeans aren't taking ... because that's our role, no matter how quick Obama is to abdicate it. Only we have the economic force to do it. Only we have the oil and energy resources to apply any serious pressure.

If you look at each of the proposals put forth, none of them - with the exception of using NATO (which, incidentally, is most significantly a US supported action) - have the resources. Only we can significantly impact the price of oil - Germany can't.

Your question becomes nebulous and unrealistic when faced with real facts.Tell me --- why is the price of oil and gas plummeting? What has the EU done to cause that? What possible impact could the EU have on it?

Once again, since the price of oil is plummeting along with Russia's economy, what, if any, actions do you think the U.S. needs to take that it hasn't already? And loose change, the only one of us two making this about Obama is you. Don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.

Sorry --- based on your comments, I figured stupid is where I needed to go.

We can see that the sanctions currently in place have had no primary effect - to stop Putin's aggression in the Ukraine. Thus, it is time to step to the second level. 'Tis better to do it quickly, than to let it fester.

If you thought it was going to have an immediate effect, think again. What do you believe the "second level" is?

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

No, I'm not saying that.

The important thing is that you KNOW that the premise of this thread is nonsense. And you do know that, now. You do KNOW that you are wrong.

I'm not going to demand that you answer questions that we both know you don't have the balls to answer honestly.

You are claiming that Russian behavior today has nothing to do with their perception of Obama as a weak and indecisive leader. Whereas the fact that Obama's foreign policy has been a disaster, is indisputable. Putin already calculated the worst case scenario of ineffective sanctions and Obama's meaningless speeches and empty threats, when he decided to invade and annex Crimea. Unfortunately Obama's extremely shallow experience, is no match for Putin's long history on the international scene and background as KJB chief.

As you can see, the West has already given up on Crimea, and now we're talking about preventing further aggression. The Russians are literally three moves ahead in this international chess game.

Putin did the same in Georgia when BushII was potus. I'm no fan of Obama, but Bushii's response then was much more girlie man than Obama's

What response?

The 2008 experience is instructive. What the United States did was it sent warships to the Black Sea, and it took the combat troops that Georgia had in Afghanistan and airlifted them back, sending a very strong message to Putin that you're going to be facing combat-trained, combat-experienced Georgian forces. And not only that, but the United States government is willing to give logistical support to get them there. And this stopped Russian troops at the two enclaves, and they did not make a move at Tbilisi. We need similar strong movement now.

Take a position, and be willing to defend it?????? Wow!!! Who woulda thunk???

Probably need a red line in the sand, huh?

As long as it's not with that invisible ink Obama keeps using.

 

[whitehall]

First of all the CIA hasn't gotten it right since WW2. It's a reactionary little quasi military force avalible to the current administration to do things that the citizens might not approve of. JFK used the CIA to illegally train, equip and support an invasion of a sovereign country but JFK chickened out at the last minute. The problem is that America's enemies are smarter than the gigantic bureaucracy and we don't even know it. The combined efforts of the CIA and the FBI couldn't find two Russians in Boston.

 

[Spare_change]

First of all the CIA hasn't gotten it right since WW2. It's a reactionary little quasi military force avalible to the current administration to do things that the citizens might not approve of. JFK used the CIA to illegally train, equip and support an invasion of a sovereign country but JFK chickened out at the last minute. The problem is that America's enemies are smarter than the gigantic bureaucracy and we don't even know it. The combined efforts of the CIA and the FBI couldn't find two Russians in Boston.

Let me guess ... your logic processor is out of calibration, right?

 

[Serpmolotru]

Who gives a flying fuck what the Russians think of us?

What Russians think? Most Russians hate Putin. But how to move it? Sniper rifle? We ( . are trying to peacefully come to power.
Putin has money bags = oligarchs. He bought the army, the police, the courts.....
But a simple, honest Russians do not have much money. Unfortunately no money revolution will not make... But it cannot last forever. Time heals. And Putin will sit in jail !
Saddam Hussein was also a king (like Putin). How did it end? So.
(sorry, I don't know English, translate computer translator, therefore, incorrectly written, but the meaning is probably understandable.
Google Translator ).

 

[Roudy]

Who gives a flying fuck what the Russians think of us?

What Russians think? Most Russians hate Putin. But how to move it? Sniper rifle? We ( . are trying to peacefully come to power.
Putin has money bags = oligarchs. He bought the army, the police, the courts.....
But a simple, honest Russians do not have much money. Unfortunately no money revolution will not make... But it cannot last forever. Time heals. And Putin will sit in jail !
Saddam Hussein was also a king (like Putin). How did it end? So.
(sorry, I don't know English, translate computer translator, therefore, incorrectly written, but the meaning is probably understandable.
Google Translator ).

Putin's first move was to use govt. jackboots to eradicate freedom of the press, then he took over the Russian oil industry by killing or incarcerating the oil company owners. That gave him and his band of mafia thugs the funding they needed to transform Russia into the imperialistic dictatorship we see today.

 

[Serpmolotru]

Who gives a flying fuck what the Russians think of us?

What Russians think? Most Russians hate Putin. But how to move it? Sniper rifle? We ( . are trying to peacefully come to power.
Putin has money bags = oligarchs. He bought the army, the police, the courts.....
But a simple, honest Russians do not have much money. Unfortunately no money revolution will not make... But it cannot last forever. Time heals. And Putin will sit in jail !
Saddam Hussein was also a king (like Putin). How did it end? So.
(sorry, I don't know English, translate computer translator, therefore, incorrectly written, but the meaning is probably understandable.
Google Translator ).

Putin's first move was to use govt. jackboots to eradicate freedom of the press, then he took over the Russian oil industry by killing or incarcerating the oil company owners. That gave him and his band of mafia thugs the funding they needed to transform Russia into the imperialistic dictatorship we see today.

All right said. Try to do something see h..p://serpmolotru.narod.ru

 

[Roudy]

Who gives a flying fuck what the Russians think of us?

What Russians think? Most Russians hate Putin. But how to move it? Sniper rifle? We ( . are trying to peacefully come to power.
Putin has money bags = oligarchs. He bought the army, the police, the courts.....
But a simple, honest Russians do not have much money. Unfortunately no money revolution will not make... But it cannot last forever. Time heals. And Putin will sit in jail !
Saddam Hussein was also a king (like Putin). How did it end? So.
(sorry, I don't know English, translate computer translator, therefore, incorrectly written, but the meaning is probably understandable.
Google Translator ).

Putin's first move was to use govt. jackboots to eradicate freedom of the press, then he took over the Russian oil industry by killing or incarcerating the oil company owners. That gave him and his band of mafia thugs the funding they needed to transform Russia into the imperialistic dictatorship we see today.

All right said. Try to do something see h..p://serpmolotru.narod.ru

It's all in Russian: .

 

[Stratford57]

Since so mane of you think Russia and Putin are your enemies don't you want to learn more about them? Remember an old saying: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Here is a chance to learn more about Putin from his interview to German TV, which made him answer many difficult questions about Crimea, Ukraine, sanctions, economics and provocative flights.
Putin s Interview with German National TV ARD in Brisbane 8211 Part 2 Stankov s Universal Law Press

Saber rattling is not the act of a confident man.

Putin is not rattling sabres. People in Ukraine are dying. Cities are under siege with the presence of Russian troops.
The Russians shot down a commercial aircraft and our Dear Leader pissed his pants.
Now you will query once again in an attempt to ask a "trap" question, "what should Obama have done?"
Well step one would have been to freeze all Russian assets in US banks. Also, ban Russian stocks from being traded on any US Based exchange. Ban trading in the US of Russian based oil.
See, we could bring Russia to its knees without so much as mentioning sanctions. And that is because Russia's economy rises and falls on oil and natural gas.

So we should take steps that the Europeans (who are at far more risk than we are) aren't taking, why? I agree that Russia's economy depends on oil and gas. So does ours. And since the price of oil and gas is plummeting, do you not understand what effect that is having in Russia?

It is never surprising just exactly how twisted, contorted, and convoluted the left will manipulate reality in order to provide some whimsical basis to justify the actions of Obama. Not surprising ... but disappointing.

The short answer is yes, we should take steps that the Europeans aren't taking ... because that's our role, no matter how quick Obama is to abdicate it. Only we have the economic force to do it. Only we have the oil and energy resources to apply any serious pressure.

If you look at each of the proposals put forth, none of them - with the exception of using NATO (which, incidentally, is most significantly a US supported action) - have the resources. Only we can significantly impact the price of oil - Germany can't.

Your question becomes nebulous and unrealistic when faced with real facts.Tell me --- why is the price of oil and gas plummeting? What has the EU done to cause that? What possible impact could the EU have on it?

Once again, since the price of oil is plummeting along with Russia's economy, what, if any, actions do you think the U.S. needs to take that it hasn't already? And loose change, the only one of us two making this about Obama is you. Don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.

Sorry --- based on your comments, I figured stupid is where I needed to go.

We can see that the sanctions currently in place have had no primary effect - to stop Putin's aggression in the Ukraine. Thus, it is time to step to the second level. 'Tis better to do it quickly, than to let it fester.

 

[bendog]

The Russians are still in Georgia, roudy. And there are no Ukarinian troops in Afghanistan. Again, wtf would you do. The EU has ruled out arming Ukraine (beyond what the CIA has sent in) and direct military action against Russia. BushII never got any sanctions. He blustered and backed down. But aside from your blind partisanship, and nonsensical comparisons, that's not really an issue. Obama may be an elitist, but we are seeing Merkel and Cameron spot on saying Russia will respect borders if it wants any place in Europe.

Stratford, you linked this before. The Kosovo comparison is beyond pure propaganda. Perhaps Russians buy this tripe, but the facts are that Kosovo did involve ethnic cleansing, which Europe and the US saw in Bosnia and Croatia. Europe asked the US to degrade the former Yugoslavia's air defenses, because only we had the military technology. We did so, and Europe has shouldered most of the cost of trying to rebuild the area and keep ethnic fighting in check. Putin's comparing Crimea and the eastern Ukraine territory to Kosovo implies Europe will not act to prevent genocide, when Kosovo actually argues for the opposite. It's blatant propaganda of simply repeating nonsense and demanding it be taken seriously. All this bs about Nazis and death camps is .... bs. And if it weren't bs, Putin would be calling on the EU to help put an end to it, rather than hindering neutral observers on the ground.

Ethnic Russians in Ukraine do face discrimination. However, part of the EU's price for Ukraine having econ ties is political reform. Putin's sending in weapons simply makes it impossible for the EU to demand the reforms from Kiev.

Russia does have valid trade issues with Ukraine being in an EU trading agreement. But, the EU first delayed implementing the agreement, and then offered to negotiate with Russia to alleviate valid issues. Putin's response was to send in troops and shoot down an airliner.

I don't really know if Putin is an enemy of the US. Most observers don't see what Putin's goals are here, beyond simply remaining the head of Russia and increasing his personal wealth. However, under the Reagan doctrine, one nation may not use military force to deny other nations free trade. Under the BushI doctrine, one nation may not use force to redefine borders .... even when the aggressor has valid econ concerns. There are courts and laws for redress.

I suspect Putin is a kind of patriot. He doesn't want to see Russia as merely being a source of petrochemicals that can be mined and then the country to be left as a third world shitehole. However, the post-cold war path away from that is developing an economy based on free trade. Whether Russians are capable of doing this seems to be the question, imo.

 

[Stratford57]

So, you are telling me, as a resident of SE Ukraine, what’s going on in Ukraine? Sorry, I know a little bit more than you do about it.

EU was not the goal for the whole Ukraine. Half of it, SE, was (and is) against it and we don’t want to pay any price, like you mentioned, for something we don’t need. All spring I was participating with thousands of people protesting and demonstrating against the EU and for Russia. I wonder if your “independent” Media reported to you about any of the weekly protests in every city of SE involving thousands of people in each one? Democracy is what the majority wants, isn’t it? So, when half a country (Western Ukraine) wants to go to EU and half a country (Eastern Ukraine) wants to be with Russia, what would be the democratic decision? Now US and Europe support half of Ukraine with its EU goal. Imagine an opposite situation: Ukraine decided to be with Russia instead of EU. Would the USA being “the democratic judge of the world” support it too? For some reason I have my doubts. So, what kind of “democracy” is that? So when official Kiev started an real war against SE, killing ethnic Russians who did not agree with Kiev, would you call it democracy or genocide, or ethnic cleansing or fascism?

Finally: there is a new joke popular in EU now:
- “When Ukraine will join EU?”
- “After Turkey.”
- “When Turkey will join EU?”
- “Never.”

Ethnic Russians in Ukraine do face discrimination. However, part of the EU's price for Ukraine having econ ties is political reform. Putin's sending in weapons simply makes it impossible for the EU to demand the reforms from Kiev.