Ya think the Russians haven't calculated we have a weak paper-tiger for president?

[Spare_change]

So, you are telling me, as a resident of SE Ukraine, what’s going on in Ukraine? Sorry, I know a little bit more than you do about it.

EU was not the goal for the whole Ukraine. Half of it, SE, was (and is) against it and we don’t want to pay any price, like you mentioned, for something we don’t need. All spring I was participating with thousands of people protesting and demonstrating against the EU and for Russia. I wonder if your “independent” Media reported to you about any of the weekly protests in every city of SE involving thousands of people in each one? Democracy is what the majority wants, isn’t it? So, when half a country (Western Ukraine) wants to go to EU and half a country (Eastern Ukraine) wants to be with Russia, what would be the democratic decision? Now US and Europe support half of Ukraine with its EU goal. Imagine an opposite situation: Ukraine decided to be with Russia instead of EU. Would the USA being “the democratic judge of the world” support it too? For some reason I have my doubts. So, what kind of “democracy” is that? So when official Kiev started an real war against SE, killing ethnic Russians who did not agree with Kiev, would you call it democracy or genocide, or ethnic cleansing or fascism?

Finally: there is a new joke popular in EU now:
- “When Ukraine will join EU?”
- “After Turkey.”
- “When Turkey will join EU?”
- “Never.”

Ethnic Russians in Ukraine do face discrimination. However, part of the EU's price for Ukraine having econ ties is political reform. Putin's sending in weapons simply makes it impossible for the EU to demand the reforms from Kiev.

You fail to grasp the whole concept of democracy ... if the people of the Ukraine want to rejoin with Russia, do it. If the people of the Ukraine don't want to associate with Russia, don't do it.

But, in no case, should Russia be allowed to force the Ukraine to realign under threat of attack. THAT is what democracy is all about ... frankly, the US people don't give a good god damn which way you go, but we are adamant that the PEOPLE get to decide, not some punk ass dictator outside the country forcing it down their throats. The same applies for those Ukrainians who support Russian alignment, but are not the majority. The PEOPLE decide ... not some militant minority faction. Once decided, if you can't live with the answer, then move.

Let Ukranians decide ...

We have a joke here, too ...

When will Ukraine join Russia? When they run out of bullets.

When will the Ukrainian people be free? When Russia runs out of bullets.

 

[orogenicman]

So, you are telling me, as a resident of SE Ukraine, what’s going on in Ukraine? Sorry, I know a little bit more than you do about it.

EU was not the goal for the whole Ukraine. Half of it, SE, was (and is) against it and we don’t want to pay any price, like you mentioned, for something we don’t need. All spring I was participating with thousands of people protesting and demonstrating against the EU and for Russia. I wonder if your “independent” Media reported to you about any of the weekly protests in every city of SE involving thousands of people in each one? Democracy is what the majority wants, isn’t it? So, when half a country (Western Ukraine) wants to go to EU and half a country (Eastern Ukraine) wants to be with Russia, what would be the democratic decision? Now US and Europe support half of Ukraine with its EU goal. Imagine an opposite situation: Ukraine decided to be with Russia instead of EU. Would the USA being “the democratic judge of the world” support it too? For some reason I have my doubts. So, what kind of “democracy” is that? So when official Kiev started an real war against SE, killing ethnic Russians who did not agree with Kiev, would you call it democracy or genocide, or ethnic cleansing or fascism?

Finally: there is a new joke popular in EU now:
- “When Ukraine will join EU?”
- “After Turkey.”
- “When Turkey will join EU?”
- “Never.”

Ethnic Russians in Ukraine do face discrimination. However, part of the EU's price for Ukraine having econ ties is political reform. Putin's sending in weapons simply makes it impossible for the EU to demand the reforms from Kiev.

What data are you using when you make the claim that half of Ukraine wants to be with Russia and half wants to be with Ukraine? And I'm sorry, but simply claiming to be living in Ukraine isn't going to do it for me. Source please.

 

[Stratford57]

Spare_change,
It's a nice joke, smells dirty though... However Putin is not helping us, "Russian aggression" is all invented by Obama to cover USA interference in Ukrainian crisis. I agree with you in one thing: stay away from Ukraine, don't support the war against its own people and let us decide ourselves (without US or EU!!!!!!) what we should do. Please tell this to Obama and his Administration.

 

[orogenicman]

It's a nice joke, smells dirty though... However Putin is not helping us, "Russian aggression" is all invented by Obama to cover USA interference in Ukrainian crisis. I agree with you in one thing: stay away from Ukraine, don't support the war against its own people and let us decide ourselves (without US or EU!!!!!!) what we should do. Please tell this to Obama and his Administration.

So, Obama invented a Malaysian airlines atrocity involving a Russian missile, did he? And prevented the recovery of bodies and wreckage for over four months, did he? For who's consumption are you posting this propagandistic drivel? Oh, and you did not answer my earlier question. Care to respond?

 

[Stratford57]

Oroganicman,

Source would be a referendum which we demanded in spring during all our protests but were "democratically" ignored. Another source is Russian history: right half of Ukraine is a part of historical Russia with ethnic Russians living there (Lenin gave all that part to Ukrainian republic in 1921). We are tied with Russia with the same roots, language, mentality, religion, culture. You know: blood is thicker than water. And Western Ukraine (its left half) is tied with Europe with same things. Imagine a situation: you live in US and suddenly it falls apart into 50 separate countries and you find yourself in a different country and cut off your Motherland. How would you feel? If you truly answer yourself this question you will understand our feelings.

 

[orogenicman]

Oroganicman,

Source would be a referendum which we demanded in spring during all our protests but were "democratically" ignored. Another source is Russian history: right half of Ukraine is a part of historical Russia with ethnic Russians living there (Lenin gave all that part to Ukrainian republic in 1921). We are tied with Russia with the same roots, language, mentality, religion, culture. You know: blood is thicker than water. And Western Ukraine (its left half) is tied with Europe with same things. Imagine a situation: you live in US and suddenly it falls apart into 50 separate countries and you find yourself in a different country and cut off your Motherland. How would you feel? If you truly answer yourself this question you will understand our feelings.

When I asked for data, I was asking for verifiable demographic data, not something you spewed from whole cloth. And Stratford, the fact that Lenin "gave" all of that part of Ukraine to Russia has never made it legitimately Russia's property. The fact is that Ukraine is a sovereign, independent nation and has been since the break up of the Soviet Union. That fact that you nationalist Russians long for the "old days" doesn't make what you are doing right.

 

[TooTall]

The Russians are playing the brinkmanship card because the sanctions the administration slapped on them is affecting their economy, but most importantly, it is hitting the leadership in their pocketbooks. They have don't have the economic power to do much more, much less to do what they are now doing for very long. Putin is not doing what he is doing because he thinks Obama is a pussy. It is typical Russian machismo, nothing else.

Actually, it's pretty obvious Putin and the rest of America's enemies and competitors are constantly sticking their fingers in America's eyes because they know Obama won't do a thing about it. It's just a question of how far they think they can push the envelope without further consequences.

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

 

[bendog]

The Russians are playing the brinkmanship card because the sanctions the administration slapped on them is affecting their economy, but most importantly, it is hitting the leadership in their pocketbooks. They have don't have the economic power to do much more, much less to do what they are now doing for very long. Putin is not doing what he is doing because he thinks Obama is a pussy. It is typical Russian machismo, nothing else.

Actually, it's pretty obvious Putin and the rest of America's enemies and competitors are constantly sticking their fingers in America's eyes because they know Obama won't do a thing about it. It's just a question of how far they think they can push the envelope without further consequences.

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

 

[TooTall]

The Russians are playing the brinkmanship card because the sanctions the administration slapped on them is affecting their economy, but most importantly, it is hitting the leadership in their pocketbooks. They have don't have the economic power to do much more, much less to do what they are now doing for very long. Putin is not doing what he is doing because he thinks Obama is a pussy. It is typical Russian machismo, nothing else.

Actually, it's pretty obvious Putin and the rest of America's enemies and competitors are constantly sticking their fingers in America's eyes because they know Obama won't do a thing about it. It's just a question of how far they think they can push the envelope without further consequences.

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

 

[bendog]

Russia has traditionally seen Ukraine as part of its empire. Borders have changed, but the reason the Russians dominate the East was Stalin killed millions of native Ukranians, and repopulated the territory with Russians. However, like it or not, in 1991 90% of the people in the Ukraine sought independence from Russia. Politically, it's been a losing game for Russia since then. If Ukraine got a do over on keeping nukes, I expect they'd take it. It is clear to me that the EU would accept a totally unaligned Ukraine, with free trade for all imports, and if Russia wanted to limit Ukranian exports to Russia, that would be their decision.

I don't think Putin can accept unaligned status. And that's dangerous. If Putin is successful in creating a civil war that will create a Russian puppet state in the Eastern third or so, with borders including a land bridge to the Crimea, I would think Nato would have no choice but to accept the remainder of Ukraine as a member, because to do less would pretty much leave the Baltics and Balkan members susceptible to Russian invasion ... which is why they pressed so hard to get into Nato in the first place.

So, Merkle's observation seems prescient that to let Russia roll back the 1991 borders to some Communist or Tsarist empire would pretty much admit Europe learned nothing from millions being lost in holocausts of the 20th century.

 

[bendog]

The Russians are playing the brinkmanship card because the sanctions the administration slapped on them is affecting their economy, but most importantly, it is hitting the leadership in their pocketbooks. They have don't have the economic power to do much more, much less to do what they are now doing for very long. Putin is not doing what he is doing because he thinks Obama is a pussy. It is typical Russian machismo, nothing else.

Actually, it's pretty obvious Putin and the rest of America's enemies and competitors are constantly sticking their fingers in America's eyes because they know Obama won't do a thing about it. It's just a question of how far they think they can push the envelope without further consequences.

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

It's just more of your bullshit. Perhaps he should send in the First Armored.

 

[TooTall]

Actually, it's pretty obvious Putin and the rest of America's enemies and competitors are constantly sticking their fingers in America's eyes because they know Obama won't do a thing about it. It's just a question of how far they think they can push the envelope without further consequences.

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

It's just more of your bullshit. Perhaps he should send in the First Armored.

Can't stand to see what is obvious can you?

 

[bendog]

What, exactly, do you believe Obama should be doing about it that he isn't already doing?

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

It's just more of your bullshit. Perhaps he should send in the First Armored.

Can't stand to see what is obvious can you?

I see you're an obvious partisan w/o the stones to pony up and say EXACTLY what you'd have Obama do.

 

[TooTall]

Uhh, draw a line in the sand. That worked so well in Syria.

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

It's just more of your bullshit. Perhaps he should send in the First Armored.

Can't stand to see what is obvious can you?

I see you're an obvious partisan w/o the stones to pony up and say EXACTLY what you'd have Obama do.

I'm not the President's adviser. I only observe the results of this weak and feckless President's policies.

 

[orogenicman]

Russia has traditionally seen Ukraine as part of its empire. Borders have changed, but the reason the Russians dominate the East was Stalin killed millions of native Ukranians, and repopulated the territory with Russians. However, like it or not, in 1991 90% of the people in the Ukraine sought independence from Russia. Politically, it's been a losing game for Russia since then. If Ukraine got a do over on keeping nukes, I expect they'd take it. It is clear to me that the EU would accept a totally unaligned Ukraine, with free trade for all imports, and if Russia wanted to limit Ukranian exports to Russia, that would be their decision.

I don't think Putin can accept unaligned status. And that's dangerous. If Putin is successful in creating a civil war that will create a Russian puppet state in the Eastern third or so, with borders including a land bridge to the Crimea, I would think Nato would have no choice but to accept the remainder of Ukraine as a member, because to do less would pretty much leave the Baltics and Balkan members susceptible to Russian invasion ... which is why they pressed so hard to get into Nato in the first place.

So, Merkle's observation seems prescient that to let Russia roll back the 1991 borders to some Communist or Tsarist empire would pretty much admit Europe learned nothing from millions being lost in holocausts of the 20th century.

Well said.

 

[bendog]

Not only unresponsive but also boorish.

Just keep on doing what he is doing. It is working so well. Is that better?

It's just more of your bullshit. Perhaps he should send in the First Armored.

Can't stand to see what is obvious can you?

I see you're an obvious partisan w/o the stones to pony up and say EXACTLY what you'd have Obama do.

I'm not the President's adviser. I only observe the results of this weak and feckless President's policies.

In short, you ain't got jack shite. Noted, partisan bs.

 

[bendog]

Russia has traditionally seen Ukraine as part of its empire. Borders have changed, but the reason the Russians dominate the East was Stalin killed millions of native Ukranians, and repopulated the territory with Russians. However, like it or not, in 1991 90% of the people in the Ukraine sought independence from Russia. Politically, it's been a losing game for Russia since then. If Ukraine got a do over on keeping nukes, I expect they'd take it. It is clear to me that the EU would accept a totally unaligned Ukraine, with free trade for all imports, and if Russia wanted to limit Ukranian exports to Russia, that would be their decision.

I don't think Putin can accept unaligned status. And that's dangerous. If Putin is successful in creating a civil war that will create a Russian puppet state in the Eastern third or so, with borders including a land bridge to the Crimea, I would think Nato would have no choice but to accept the remainder of Ukraine as a member, because to do less would pretty much leave the Baltics and Balkan members susceptible to Russian invasion ... which is why they pressed so hard to get into Nato in the first place.

So, Merkle's observation seems prescient that to let Russia roll back the 1991 borders to some Communist or Tsarist empire would pretty much admit Europe learned nothing from millions being lost in holocausts of the 20th century.

Well said.

Thanks, but frankly I'm a bit worried. Putin would have to be unhinged to make this a potential shooting war, but I'm not so sure he isn't unhinged. Nato cannot just sit back and let him whack off the eastern third of a country that not only voted 90% for independence when the soviets collapsed, but then voted to give up it's nukes to Russia in a bid for secure borders. Not when the Baltics rightfully fear Putin's incitement to low level internal conflicts such as he's started in Ukraine. Putin's view apparently is he gets vote do overs whenever it suits him to restablish the old Soviet/Tsarist client states. What's unhinged is his apparent view that Nato poses any military threat to Russia.

Merkle, and the EU's and Obama's overriding concerns is we don't want a series of conventional arm confrontations from the Baltics to the Balkans between paramilitary groups supported and armed by Russia and Nato states. Nato is not the danger here. But, the view seems to be that Putin will go as far as he's permitted in reconstituting the former Iron Curtain. Too Tall is only half clever, but the reality is that if sanctions aren't effective, Nato will have few options left beyond making in to too costly in terms of casualties for Putin to engage in incursions. That's scary.

 

[Stratford57]

Orogenicman, Bendog and other anti-Russians: I wonder if you want to FIND the truth or to BURY the truth?

Here is a map from USA Today showing the demographics of SE Ukraine. It clearly shows that Ethics Russians are the majority. This group has shown with their voting over and over again that is wants to be with Russia. The rest of the Ukraine wants to be with the EU. The Ethics Russian do not have a problem with the Ukrainians being with the EU. But for some reasons they refuse to to give the Russians the same consideration. Check on number 3 three of this link.

Interactive Key geography demographics in Ukraine

And the demographics is not the point. The point is: a group of radicals with US&EU encouraging made a military coup in February, overthrew the legitimately elected president in violation of the Ukrainian constitution and told the whole country: we all are going towards EU. That’s why the people in the Eastern part started their numerous protest and demanding a referendum which was supposed to show where the majority wanted to go: to EU, to Russia or nowhere. Those numbers would really matter when the country wanted to make such a big decision. And Kiev junta preferred to start the war against those who disagree instead of having peaceful and democratic referendum. And that’s what EU&US keep supporting until now, blaming Putin at the same time without having any facts of Russia being involved into the conflict. “Putin’s presence” is a very comfortable myth for Ukraine and their supporters, otherwise it would be very difficult to explain to their citizens and to the world why official Kiev is exterminating its own people.

And below is a link to Malaysian investigation of a tragedy with their Boeing:
This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

MH17 Pockmarks look like from very very heavy machine gun fire says first OSCE monitor on-scene New Straits Times

As you can see, not everybody automatically believes Obama’s words.

 

[orogenicman]

Russia has traditionally seen Ukraine as part of its empire. Borders have changed, but the reason the Russians dominate the East was Stalin killed millions of native Ukranians, and repopulated the territory with Russians. However, like it or not, in 1991 90% of the people in the Ukraine sought independence from Russia. Politically, it's been a losing game for Russia since then. If Ukraine got a do over on keeping nukes, I expect they'd take it. It is clear to me that the EU would accept a totally unaligned Ukraine, with free trade for all imports, and if Russia wanted to limit Ukranian exports to Russia, that would be their decision.

I don't think Putin can accept unaligned status. And that's dangerous. If Putin is successful in creating a civil war that will create a Russian puppet state in the Eastern third or so, with borders including a land bridge to the Crimea, I would think Nato would have no choice but to accept the remainder of Ukraine as a member, because to do less would pretty much leave the Baltics and Balkan members susceptible to Russian invasion ... which is why they pressed so hard to get into Nato in the first place.

So, Merkle's observation seems prescient that to let Russia roll back the 1991 borders to some Communist or Tsarist empire would pretty much admit Europe learned nothing from millions being lost in holocausts of the 20th century.

Well said.

Thanks, but frankly I'm a bit worried. Putin would have to be unhinged to make this a potential shooting war, but I'm not so sure he isn't unhinged. Nato cannot just sit back and let him whack off the eastern third of a country that not only voted 90% for independence when the soviets collapsed, but then voted to give up it's nukes to Russia in a bid for secure borders. Not when the Baltics rightfully fear Putin's incitement to low level internal conflicts such as he's started in Ukraine. Putin's view apparently is he gets vote do overs whenever it suits him to restablish the old Soviet/Tsarist client states. What's unhinged is his apparent view that Nato poses any military threat to Russia.

Merkle, and the EU's and Obama's overriding concerns is we don't want a series of conventional arm confrontations from the Baltics to the Balkans between paramilitary groups supported and armed by Russia and Nato states. Nato is not the danger here. But, the view seems to be that Putin will go as far as he's permitted in reconstituting the former Iron Curtain. Too Tall is only half clever, but the reality is that if sanctions aren't effective, Nato will have few options left beyond making in to too costly in terms of casualties for Putin to engage in incursions. That's scary.

Indeed.

 

[orogenicman]

Orogenicman, Bendog and other anti-Russians: I wonder if you want to FIND the truth or to BURY the truth?

Excuse me? I am not anti-Russian. I am perfectly fine when Russia and the west cooperate with one another instead of butt heads. I have always been a believer in the idea that we have more in common than not, and that it benefits everyone when we aren't in conflict. The west is not the enemy of the Russian people. And make no mistake, we did not want or desire to go down the road that Putin is currently taking us. That was his decision, not ours. That is the truth. And what makes you think that Ukraine has to give any nation any consideration? They are an independent nation. They can do what they want. Oh, and if ethnic Russians are a majority in Ukraine, it is only because Stalin slaughtered tens of thousands of Ukrainians and brought Russians in to replace them. Interesting that you chose not to mention this fact.