Zone1 YHWH(Jehovah)

Meriweather · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
When I told my pastor this analogy or parable, he told me that if I believe that the Bible is like that imperfectly written address, I'm not a Christian. I'm lost, because THE BIBLE IS PERFECT BUBBA. PERFECT. The Bible can be sufficient, good enough to guide one to paradise, and it doesn't have to be perfect. It can contain errors, even a few inconsistencies, "contradictions" and still guide us into a pattern of thinking and behaving that is conducive for salvation and experiencing the presence of God. But these Evangelicals just don't get it and they keep appealing to "SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS", RATIONAL ARGUMENTS.

The problem with some is that they see the Bible through the lenses of modern English and Western culture. The Bible wasn't written in modern English, and today's Western culture would be beyond their ken.

When the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, seems confusing, I start researching scholarly rabbi commentaries--as far back in history as possible. Takes a lot of time, work, and effort, but for me it is worth all that study (which included Biblical cultures and their histories.

If Fundamentalists are content with how they read and understand the Bible, they should be at least deeply aware of one thing: If they cannot guide their flock back to the times that were, they are going to lose people. For example, people who cannot accept creation taking a literal six 24-hou days, or that the entire planet was flooded, so none of the Bible is to be trusted. The Bible is to be trusted--but through the lens of our own language, our own time, our own culture. We have to be willing to see things through the eyes of the past; hear things with the ears of those who spoke age-old languages.

Meriweather · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Quite accurate isn't perfect. There are errors in the Bible, it's not inerrant. Perhaps you're a bit too "fundamentalist" and not as thoughtful as I assumed. The Bible doesn't have to be perfect to guide someone to salvation.

Or, we don't have to have a perfect understanding of it to be guided to salvation. Remember, the Bible was inspired by God, written by humans with human imperfections, limited human knowledge, limited knowledge.

Did you know "inerrancy" wasn't even an issue until the past few hundred years?

Psst: You need to stop jumping to conclusions about me. Again, I invite you to submit an error you see so that it might be discussed.

ding · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
I joined the forum last July with this nickname, in order to debate right-wing conservatives and defenders of capitalism from the communist position. I test arguments on forums, that's how I learn. I scrutinize my beliefs and those of others and when I am wrong, I change my beliefs. I have no problem discarding my cherished assertions when they are proven wrong and I have done that on this forum on several issues.

I'm not allowed to change my nickname or open another account, so I am stuck as a communist on this forum until next July. That's just the way it is ding-donkey.

I'm pretty sure you can change your screen name. Talk to a mod. I've seen others do it. Some have done it multiple times.

If you really do reconsider your positions I urge you to look up the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence is anything tangible or anything which is testified to as being seen or heard. It's up to the "jury" to weigh the evidence to decide if the weight of the evidence is sufficient enough to prove a case. You keep arguing there's no evidence for God and I keep telling you there's tons of evidence for God and that you just don't accept the evidence.

You should also reconsider your position that there is evidence you would accept because until you can actually state what you would accept as evidence, you are just playing a shell game. And a disingenuous one at that.

Meriweather · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Even if the Bible is divinely inspired it doesn't have to be perfect. It's not, anyone who has actually studied it knows that.

A part that is not "perfect"? Is it possible you have higher expectations of the Bible than many of us have? Bible accounts were written to teach a lesson or to make a point. I truly don't understand the fuss you are making and what passage, exactly, has your knickers in a twist (as the saying goes).

As for me...one of the first things I learned about the Bible is that not everything in it is about me or even applies to me.

ding · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Nothing that you have presented so far is conclusive evidence for the existence of the personal God of the Bible. There are other explanations offered by physicists hence at best, your "God of the gaps" arguments are simply one of several options, not the only one. You can't build much of a case on the type of evidence you've presented so far.

What genuine believers and disciples of Jesus need to do is get filled with the Holy Ghost. Get baptized in the Holy Spirit and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, with power. This isn't about who is the wittiest or smartest, or who can present the most convincing rhetorical argument. Intellectual arguments are not going to convince anyone but those who are already convinced or have a bias toward believing in God. They want to believe in God and they will latch on to whatever apologetical argument is presented. This has nothing to do with human, carnal logic. Nothing. This is purely transcendental.

Most Christians don't know how to be Christians or disciples of Jesus. Christianity now is something one believes in and attends weekly, at a church building. Maybe add prayer night on Wednesdays. Twice a week, if you're super-committed. None of that is what made the 1st century, apostolic church a spiritual dynomo and bulwark, able to transform the world with POWER. I've witnessed miracles in Jesus Name. This is ILLOGICAL and as long as you insist that it isn't, you're grabbing at straws. You won't transform the world for Christ. You will remain just another dead religion.

So what evidence would be conclusive for you?

kjw47 · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
In the Hebrew bible, heavenly angels (holy spirits) are of the category of divinity, hence they are identified as god/gods. The Hebrew term "benai" often translated "sons", or "children", can also mean "category" or "class", as in "sons of the flute", or "sons of destruction". When we read that the holy angels/spirits are "sons of Elohim", it is telling us that these spirits are of the category or class of divinity. They are divine.

Yes they have godlike qualities( divine) but are not God.

kjw47 · Mar 12, 2023

Ivan88 said:
That flood did not cover the whole planet Earth. It was designed to kill off the sons of Adam who were race mixing; and was localized in some basin.
The sons of Adam are the sons of god. Noah was perfect in His genealogy and was the only son of god to survive along with His 3 son and His wife. Noah was not a race mixer.

Gen 6:2 is referring to angels. God doesn't care about Races mixing. He created all races.

kjw47 · Mar 12, 2023

expat_panama said:
That is an interesting interpretation, and it is not in the Bible. You can believe that it is the truth, that it conforms to the Bible. At the same time it is important that we accept that it is not in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "99.9% mislead".

We will be able to study the Bible together only when you are willing to accept the Bible as it is and not how you want it to be. Please let me know when you are willing to say that "99.9% mislead" is not in the Bible.

Well if you don't believe they were mislead, the true statement would be 99.9% were deemed wicked in Gods view. There is only righteous and wicked in Gods view. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, they laughed at him. Why? Because they were mislead in darkness.

kjw47 · Mar 12, 2023

BS Filter said:
So according to JWs Jesus is a false god.

I could tell this answer to a 10 year old 1 x and they would understand, how come you cannot? Jesus is not God at all, he has godlike qualities. He cannot be a false God. Only a false God to ones mislead into believing he is God.

Meriweather · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Most Protestant Christians demand the Bible is inerrant and if one doesn't agree with them, they will declare you an apostate. They will question your devotion to Jesus and whether you're a Christian. Those who have their "knickers twisted" and pretend this isn't the case, are essentially gaslighting me for speaking the truth, pretending there's something wrong with me. No, there's something wrong with you if you demand the bible is free of errors when it clearly is not.

Christianity isn't a religion of The Book, as Judaism and Islam are, but of The Spirit. The letter kills, but The Spirit gives life.

I have never been to Protestant Bible Study, so maybe it is different from our Catholic Bible studies. So many different perspectives and insights. So many contributing background information. And so many talents. Never occurred to us that any were apostates.

expat_panama · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Why should anyone believe or assume that the ancient collection of writings you call "The Bible" is the inerrant word of an almighty deity? Start there. Why should anyone believe this Christian claim?

You started out by talking about an "ancient collection of writings". Why is it important that the Bible is an "ancient collection of writings"? Is every "ancient collection of writings" automatically wrong? After that it sounded like you were asking if I considered the Bible to be the "inerrant word of an almighty deity" but it's hard to tell if you wanted to know my views or you were just complaining. If you want to complain then I'm not sure how I can help you out. I mean, I didn't write the Bible and I don't know everything that's in it.

fwiw I did do a quick search and the word "deity" is not in the Bible. You may be having a problem with something else. We can talk about it if you want, but only if you and I are not at war. Don't get me wrong, lots of good people just love to fuss about this stuff but I don't because I'm not very good at it.

expat_panama · Mar 12, 2023

kjw47 said:
Well if you don't believe they were mislead,..

I'm trying to set my beliefs aside and return with you to the Bible. For example, I have pointed out several times that nowhere in the Bible is "99.9%" mentioned, and you have never showed me a verse where "99.9%" appears. It's important to me that we understand that somethings are in the Bible and somethings are our interpretations, and it's important to me that we remember that there's a big difference between the two.

kjw47 said:
...the true statement would be 99.9% were deemed wicked in Gods view. There is only righteous and wicked in Gods view. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, they laughed at him. Why? Because they were mislead in darkness.

Sounds like you and I can agree that Noah was good. My thinking is that if we work together and build on what we have in common then good things can happen.

BS Filter · Mar 12, 2023

Meriweather said:
True, and he is not trolling for me. He wants fundamentalists and literalists for his silly games.

kjw47 said:
I could tell this answer to a 10 year old 1 x and they would understand, how come you cannot? Jesus is not God at all, he has godlike qualities. He cannot be a false God. Only a false God to ones mislead into believing he is God.

Your Bible says in John 1:1 that Jesus is "a god". You just lied again. Can't help yourself, can you.

ding · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
In the material world, the only evidence for Christ Jesus, is provided by the Holy Spirit. The word of God preached breaks through the demonic forces that keep the mind and heart in darkness. People hear the gospel and they are convicted of their sins, provided the preacher is anointed, and immersed in the Holy Ghost. His words carry the light of God, which illuminates and softens stubborn, hardened hearts.

The other piece of evidence is prophecy/signs and wonders.

He's never met the man before and yet knows exactly what he was doing last Saturday night, committing adultery with Nancy, at the Pink Panther Motel on 2nd Street. The fear of God falls on that man and he collapses to his knees like a sack of potatoes, pleading for forgiveness. I've witnessed that and other miracles as well. I was a Pentecostal for many years, in a little Spanish-speaking church in Brooklyn, NY, full of poor congregants. Miracles, the supernatural were common. I had several gifts of the Holy Spirit and I would walk into a public place or bus, and those possessed with demons would start screaming at me. I would cast out demons in public, delivering strangers. I had a deliverance ministry. If I tell you what I have witnessed, you probably won't believe me.

The other source of evidence is divine love.

Those who are truly disciples of Jesus Christ, have a special love for the lost. This miraculous love and concern for the lost, is reflected in their words and behavior, to such an extent that it melts the unbeliever's hardened heart.

And another piece of evidence for the gospel of Jesus Christ, is the authority of the true believer.

When a person is truly a servant of God in Christ, their words carry authority and power. Like I said, I used to walk into a public venue and people sensed the presence of God. It was pretty amazing, the power that I used to have before my fall. Your words are embued with divine power, when you are a born again, spirit filled disciple of Christ.

What defies the laws of physics, is the human mind, immersed, and illuminated by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, in Christ Jesus. Your mind is the battleground and where you can generate the evidence for God's existence, convincing unbelieves of His presence, even if they're atheists. God will use you as His instrument to manifst His presence and power, in this dark, demonic world, the moment you decide to crucify yourself with Jesus. Carry your cross and follow Him. Be holy as your Father in Heaven is Holy.

So why are you arguing God does not exist?

ding · Mar 12, 2023

CommunistFront said:
Nothing that you have presented so far is conclusive evidence for the existence of the personal God of the Bible.

You are quibbling and moving the goal posts. If you believe God exists then what God created is evidence of his existence.

How many different stories are you going to tell?

Zone1 - There is no "GOD", deal with it!

There is no God, deal with it and move on. Save yourself and enjoy whatever you have left of this life, even if you're living the last chapter or even the last sentence of your life. Live it to the fullest. Stop believing in ghosts and goblins and believe in yourself and only what is real and...

www.usmessageboard.com

ding · Mar 12, 2023

expat_panama said:
You started out by talking about an "ancient collection of writings". Why is it important that the Bible is an "ancient collection of writings"? Is every "ancient collection of writings" automatically wrong? After that it sounded like you were asking if I considered the Bible to be the "inerrant word of an almighty deity" but it's hard to tell if you wanted to know my views or you were just complaining. If you want to complain then I'm not sure how I can help you out. I mean, I didn't write the Bible and I don't know everything that's in it.

fwiw I did do a quick search and the word "deity" is not in the Bible. You may be having a problem with something else. We can talk about it if you want, but only if you and I are not at war. Don't get me wrong, lots of good people just love to fuss about this stuff but I don't because I'm not very good at it.

He's all over the map.