Zone1 You will hate me but.. apparently Mother Teresa was no saint

[Carl in Michigan]

No it isn't. Save for Christ alone, the kingdom is a kingdom of equals.

"Least" and "great"

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

 

[hadit]

YES. Tons of people! Worldwide. I mean, his claim was not only demonstrably unbiblical, but completely absurd if he actually believes that.

Btw, speaking of people coming to Christ through an encounter that didn't involve a church, I love this quote by Brooke Fraser: (I added the bold)

"Then Jesus introduced Himself to me. Though my birth certificate reads 1983, I reckon I was born in 1999, when I met Jesus - not in a church or on a camp or through people, but alone in my bedroom with an open Bible and a tangible revelation that the Son of God was not only real, but alive and awesome and stronger than the chains that bound me." ~ Brooke Fraser​

I wonder if notmyfault2020 will say she's not Christian because she didn't come to Christ while being inside a Catholic church through one of the "sacraments" or other religious rituals.

My Dad is active in the Gideons and they have many testimonies from people who found Christ by reading that Bible they found in the drawer in their hotel room.

 

[notmyfault2020]

There are many, many testimonies of people who came to Christ through the reading of the Word or an encounter with Him that didn't involve the Church at all. Ever hear of the Gideons? Their

How utterly, utterly ABSURD

as if you can prove something like that

What dishonest people anti-Catholics are

 

[notmyfault2020]

I didn't come to Christ in ANY Church or so called Church, though I was Catholic back then.

So I came to know Jesus while Catholic (though not very religious) -- and before I had ever stepped one foot in a non-Catholic Church..


Then I began to backslide but came back to Christ later via the ROSARY.

Then I got angry at God for things that happened ..etc.. yet stayed with Him BECAUSE of the Catholic Faith

 

[hadit]

How utterly, utterly ABSURD

as if you can prove something like that

What dishonest people anti-Catholics are

You do know that saying, "Nuh-uh, you're lying" is not a strong debate tactic, right?

You've been dodging this question, so this is the third time I'm giving it to you.

Are you prepared to state definitively that no one outside the Catholic Church is a Christian?

 

[hadit]

I didn't come to Christ in ANY Church or so called Church, though I was Catholic back then.

So I came to know Jesus while Catholic (though not very religious) -- and before I had ever stepped one foot in a non-Catholic Church..


Then I began to backslide but came back to Christ later via the ROSARY.

Then I got angry at God for things that happened ..etc.. yet stayed with Him BECAUSE of the Catholic Faith

Now you've contradicted yourself. Here's you from earlier in the thread:

""No one comes to the Father except through Christ

and no one goes to Christ except through His Church"

That aside, there are many with very similar testimonies, only with "Baptist", "Methodist", "Presbyterian", or other substituted for "Catholic". The reality is, and I cannot stress this enough, that Christ's Church extends far beyond man-made denominational boundaries. His Church is everyone who believes in Him. Clinging to an artificial denomination name is not only foolhardy and wrong, but denies Yeshua Himself.

 

[norwegen]

"Least" and "great"

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Well, guess what. Christians break OT commandments all the time. So do Jews, for that matter. Teaching the Mosaic Law says nothing about rank. It's more in line with laud or merit.

In the kingdom of God, all are equal.

Equality is a glowing aspect of the church that begins with the Spirit and manifests in the natural. Jesus accepted an invitation to the house of a Pharisee and observed the way in which the guests jostled for seats of honor at the table. In this hostile environment, he remained resolute and suggested a humbler and Godlier attitude (Lk 14:7-11). With an eye toward the kingdom, he described an environment in which the members complement each other rather than compete, akin to the way St. Paul described the members of the human body, each having its own place and function. The exalted are humbled and the humbled exalted. In the church Jesus was going to build, no one would exert control or authority over another.

Jesus expounded this theme in mixed company as Matthew records it. When contrasting his friends with the scribes and Pharisees in the audience, he said;

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (Mt 23:8-12)​

When we think of churches, we think of denominations or local congregations with staff, elders, volunteers, and rank-and-file members, which is well and good. When we think of the church, however, we must think of the body of Christ, which lacks any hierarchy save for Christ alone. This body countenances no division, for the members support each other (1 Cor 12:25). All are citizens of God’s household without class or rank (Eph 2:19). The lowly boasts in Christ and the powerful humbles himself in Christ (Jas 1:9-10). The lion lies down with the lamb, so to speak. No one rules and no one is ruled, reminiscent of the sentiment of the prophets after Israel’s deliverance from foreign control:

​

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,​

and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat. (Is 11:6)​

Isaiah prophesied Israel’s liberation from Assyria. Assyria was a wolf that preyed upon Israel, the lamb. But after God exacted judgment on the aggressor state when He sent Babylon, the two dwelt together peacefully. When a wolf lies with a lamb or a leopard with a young goat, the predator assumes a meekness comparable to that of the prey; the two coexist such that even a small child might be able to shepherd them. Note the parallel language in Isaiah 65:25 in reference to Israel extricating herself from Babylonian control. “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together.” In the kingdom of God, a lion lies down with a lamb because they are equal; the strong and the weak in the world are all His children of equal standing in the kingdom. The kingdom has no man-made temple, no seat of government, no hierarchy. It has no high council. No one oppresses and no one is oppressed, quite unlike the class divisions in the Jewish temple hierarchy.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Now you've contradicted yourself. Here's you from earlier in the thread:

""No one comes to the Father except through Christ

and no one goes to Christ except through His Church"

I stopped here, at the first irregular remark ... I said in my post (but I guess you have reading comprehension issues)

that I was IN the Catholic Church at that time. . It was indeed the ONLY Church I knew at that time.

But that said, I could have added a sentence to clarify. While I was not physically inside a Church at that time (I never said a person has to be physically INSIDE to be saved... so why you imply I said that is beyond me but anyhow..)

while I was not IN the Church at the time I had this big conversion experience... It was due to the Catholic faith that I HAD that experience. I was going through some tough things and was all alone in a natural setting. I recalled to mind in that moment what the priest (CATHOLIC priest) of my parish had said some time previously in a homily, that "God loves us unconditionally." So I turned to God.. because of what that priest had said. And that is how i found Jesus in a big way, how I began reading the entire N Testament... several times over...

 

[notmyfault2020]

Clinging to an artificial denomination name is not only foolhardy and wrong, but denies Yeshua Himself.

straw man... and you're just trying to insult Catholics with all this nonsense.. you apparently just want to accuse, acsuse, accuse like the Great Accuser of the Brethren, Satan himself... If you don't put some charity in your posts from now on (and stop putting stupid words in my mouth), I am not going to respond. The whole message of Christ can pretty much be summed up in that C word.. though what do humans know about charity? Even Christians (or "christians") don't know much about that.

 

[BackAgain]

Mother Theresa was a saint.

Personally, I have no desire to work in the slums of “Calcutta.” It takes a very special kind of person to do that.

 

[hadit]

I stopped here, at the first irregular remark ... I said in my post (but I guess you have reading comprehension issues)

that I was IN the Catholic Church at that time. . It was indeed the ONLY Church I knew at that time.

But that said, I could have added a sentence to clarify. While I was not physically inside a Church at that time (I never said a person has to be physically INSIDE to be saved... so why you imply I said that is beyond me but anyhow..)

while I was not IN the Church at the time I had this big conversion experience... It was due to the Catholic faith that I HAD that experience. I was going through some tough things and was all alone in a natural setting. I recalled to mind in that moment what the priest (CATHOLIC priest) of my parish had said some time previously in a homily, that "God loves us unconditionally." So I turned to God.. because of what that priest had said. And that is how i found Jesus in a big way, how I began reading the entire N Testament... several times over...

People with no Church experience or affiliation come to Yeshua all the time simply by reading the Word. Many a Muslim has done this. Do you deny that a Muslim who converts to Christianity simply by reading the Word and/or having a personal encounter with Yeshua is a Christian? See, you hesitate to go there, even though you continue to claim that the only "true" Church is the Catholic one and no one comes to Christ except through the Church.

No, what I am saying has nothing to do with being inside a physical building. I am simply reacting to your oft-repeated claim that the "true" Church is the Catholic one. Again I will post this question to you, that you have refused to deal with.

Are you prepared to state categorically that all non-Catholics are not Christians? Are you willing to say that all Protestants are not Christians?

 

[hadit]

straw man... and you're just trying to insult Catholics with all this nonsense.. you apparently just want to accuse, acsuse, accuse like the Great Accuser of the Brethren, Satan himself... If you don't put some charity in your posts from now on (and stop putting stupid words in my mouth), I am not going to respond. The whole message of Christ can pretty much be summed up in that C word.. though what do humans know about charity? Even Christians (or "christians") don't know much about that.

Again, are you trying to state, maintain, or insinuate that non-Catholics are not Christians? Do you accept that Protestants are Christians? Be honest.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

YES. Tons of people! Worldwide. I mean, his claim was not only demonstrably unbiblical, but completely absurd if he actually believes that.

Btw, speaking of people coming to Christ through an encounter that didn't involve a church, I love this quote by Brooke Fraser: (I added the bold)

"Then Jesus introduced Himself to me. Though my birth certificate reads 1983, I reckon I was born in 1999, when I met Jesus - not in a church or on a camp or through people, but alone in my bedroom with an open Bible and a tangible revelation that the Son of God was not only real, but alive and awesome and stronger than the chains that bound me." ~ Brooke Fraser​

I wonder if notmyfault2020 will say she's not Christian because she didn't come to Christ while being inside a Catholic church through one of the "sacraments" or other religious rituals.

The "church" has very little to do with a person actually coming to Christ. It is a deely personal thing.

That's not the purpose of an "organization" anyway.

By that I mean, the "Church" is actually the body of believers in whom dwells the Spirit of God, NOT A BUILDING or even an organization of Man

 

[buttercup]

People with no Church experience or affiliation come to Yeshua all the time simply by reading the Word. Many a Muslim has done this. Do you deny that a Muslim who converts to Christianity simply by reading the Word and/or having a personal encounter with Yeshua is a Christian? See, you hesitate to go there, even though you continue to claim that the only "true" Church is the Catholic one and no one comes to Christ except through the Church.

I hope he doesn't try to argue against that, because to me the fact that even needs to be stated to any professed Christian is mind-blowing to me. OF COURSE TONS of people come to Christ apart from the Catholic church (or any church, if they grew up in a non-religious home.)

Jewish people have come to Christ through personal revelation. Muslims who live in Islamic countries where christian missions is outlawed have come to Christ through phenomenal encounters with Jesus in dreams, people from all religious backgrounds or NO religious background have come to Christ. This is undeniable, so I really hope "notmyfault" realizes that, because if not I would be flabbergasted at the ignorance.

 

[hadit]

I hope he doesn't try to argue against that, because to me the fact that even needs to be stated to any professed Christian is mind-blowing to me. OF COURSE TONS of people come to Christ apart from the Catholic church (or any church, if they grew up in a non-religious home.)

Jewish people have come to Christ through personal revelation. Muslims who live in Islamic countries where christian missions is outlawed have come to Christ through phenomenal encounters with Jesus in dreams, people from all religious backgrounds or NO religious background have come to Christ. This is undeniable, so I really hope "notmyfault" realizes that, because if not I would be flabbergasted at the ignorance.

I have learned in my many years in this life that Christ is far bigger than anything I can even imagine, and I had to overcome my youthful inclination to believe my home Church had it all figured out and everyone else was wrong. That fact is that He loves the person I may hate as much as He loves me.

 

[buttercup]

I have learned in my many years in this life that Christ is far bigger than anything I can even imagine, and I had to overcome my youthful inclination to believe my home Church had it all figured out and everyone else was wrong. That fact is that He loves the person I may hate as much as He loves me.

Same here. But I still want to understand 'notmyfaults' position, because his response to you in his post #83 makes zero sense. Non-Catholics are "dishonest" for saying that people come to Christ outside the Catholic church???? (I hope he doesn't actually believe that and we've just been misinterpreting his posts.)

PS: I think it might be time for a good testimonies thread.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I was too hasty in responding in the following way in Post #83

I said: How utterly, utterly ABSURD

as if you can prove something like that

I thought poster was saying that there were more people coming to God through the Bible than the Church but that's not exactly what he or she said.. Sorry about that.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Again, are you trying to state, maintain, or insinuate that non-Catholics are not Christians? Do you accept that Protestants are Christians? Be honest.

Frankly, as to that last Q... I am rather agnostic at this time except that Jesus did say "He who is not against me is for me" so I guess you could say some Protesters are Christian.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Same here. But I still want to understand 'notmyfaults' position, because his response to you in his post #83 makes zero sense. Non-Catholics are "dishonest" for saying that people come to Christ outside the Catholic church???? (I hope he doesn't actually believe that and we've just been misinterpreting his posts.)

I just corrected my mistake.. see Post 97

 

[notmyfault2020]

Mother Theresa was a saint.

Personally, I have no desire to work in the slums of “Calcutta.” It takes a very special kind of person to do that.

Only true Catholics can be canonized saints.

If she never witnessed to the poor about Christ and His Church.. she cannot be a saint. But I learned a long time ago that the "popes" since 1958 are not real popes, cannot canonize anyone. Only Catholics can be a pope.