2020 and the National Debt

[TomParks]

Social security is ok if they remove the cap and tax all income. The debt could be paid down quick but the USA is so rich nobody seems to care.

 

[kyzr]

A "real conservative" does nothing but cut taxes for the wealthy to "grow the economy", which never works and only succeeds in growing the $23T Debt.
If you know a "true conservative" that you's support as president, please tell me who he is and what his plans are to address the Debt. Here is my plan to address the Debt, they would all be screaming like stuck pigs:
1. The democrats would say the VAT, 3% sales tax hits the poor and middle class
2. The GOP would say the tax increase kills job creation and hurt businesses

A. Hire another "Grace Commission" to audit and fix the Federal budget deficit

B. Cut Spending: [CUT $625b a year]
1. Cut defense to 2017 levels of $600b until the Debt is reduced, saving $150b
2. Cut foreign aid $55b (until Debt is paid we can't borrow to give money away)
3. Cut Welfare $200b & Medicaid $200b (about half)
4. Cut education $20b (state responsibility)

C. To cover the $900b budget deficit the following taxes need to be raised:
1. Raise the top tax rate about 7% above 2016 levels +$400b
2. Implement a new 3% Fed sales tax +$400b
3. Implement a new transaction tax on all stocks & bonds Impose a Tax on Financial Transactions | Congressional Budget Office +$100b
4. Implement a new remittances tax/fee on all money sent out of the US https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/05/tax_remittances_can_build_the_wall.html 2% of $140b is +$3b a year

D. Reform entitlements, Medicare & Social Security, currently projected to be insolvent:

A real conservative, on the federal level supports ONLY what the US constitution allows. One of the more important aspects of this is the congressional authority to create money. Not pass it off to the Federal Reserve.
There's a few agencies that are unconstitutional. But could be deemed as such with the "promote for the general welfare" clause. But that's a HUGE stretch.

So it sounds like you are a member (or fit in with) the Constitution Party, the old Tea party.
Constitution Party (United States) - Wikipedia
They want to use tariffs and excise taxes to fund the government, eliminate Social Security, eliminate income taxes.
Sorry, but I see you don't have a viable candidate or a workable party, just fringe goof-balls.

How about you just vote Republican and push a few of your better ideas, like cutting spending, and eliminating Warren's illegal: Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - Wikipedia

CFPB gets/got its funding thru the Federal Reserve so Congress has no control of it?! WTF!!
This agency needs to be eliminated ASAP.

 

[YoursTruly]

Uh-huh, that's great except for the fact that the debt is continuously rolled over and increased because the Federal Government needs to borrow in order to cover not only it's ever increasing operating deficit but also to cover debt service costs for outstanding debt, so the reality is that there is no "zeroing out" net effect.

And while yes the Federal Reserve does indeed rebate any interest earned on Treasury debt back to the Treasury, everybody else that buys those bonds and earns interest on them DOESN'T so it's not "zeroed" and it ends up as net increase in the money supply requiring the Fed to intensify OMO and other money supply manipulation efforts to stabilize the value of the currency.

Our currency is based on debt a fact that is never mentioned by Federal Reserve Fiat Currency Apologists.

Think about this:

Every Time someone receives a paycheck, every dollar in their checks are Federally taxed. When they spend their money, or even deposit it into their banks, where the money goes, even to the bank, at least some of it is used to pay more employee's. Which get's taxed again. And again, and again and again. Probably 100 times a year.
Tax are about 25%. So from the 5th time that same money is taxed, it's creating a profit for the government. In Texas, the sales tax is .085 (per dollar) so the 9th time a dollar is spent, it begins creating a profit for the government that owns the sales tax.
That's a lot of profit the government(s) is collecting just in taxes.

P.S. I'm not arguing anything you said. Just adding more information.

 

[YoursTruly]

So it sounds like you are a member (or fit in with) the Constitution Party, the old Tea party.
Constitution Party (United States) - Wikipedia
They want to use tariffs and excise taxes to fund the government, eliminate Social Security, eliminate income taxes.
Sorry, but I see you don't have a viable candidate or a workable party, just fringe goof-balls.

How about you just vote Republican and push a few of your better ideas, like cutting spending, and eliminating Warren's illegal:
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - Wikipedia

Who gets/got its funding thru the Federal Reserve so Congress has no control of it?! WTF!!
This agency needs to be eliminated ASAP.

I support the constitution as written. But I support no political party. Especially the Republicans and/or Democrat party's. They've been in control for over 165 years. And I don't have enough confidence in them (or any of them) to give my support.

And I don't appreciate being told who I should support.

In fact, an RBE is sounding a lot better all the time.

 

[YoursTruly]

Social security is ok if they remove the cap and tax all income. The debt could be paid down quick but the USA is so rich nobody seems to care.

SS is money that's already been taxed. The government is double dipping, when they tax it. Again.

 

[kyzr]

So it sounds like you are a member (or fit in with) the Constitution Party, the old Tea party.
Constitution Party (United States) - Wikipedia
They want to use tariffs and excise taxes to fund the government, eliminate Social Security, eliminate income taxes.
Sorry, but I see you don't have a viable candidate or a workable party, just fringe goof-balls.

How about you just vote Republican and push a few of your better ideas, like cutting spending, and eliminating Warren's illegal:
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - Wikipedia

Who gets/got its funding thru the Federal Reserve so Congress has no control of it?! WTF!!
This agency needs to be eliminated ASAP.

I support the constitution as written. But I support no political party. Especially the Republicans and/or Democrat party's. They've been in control for over 165 years. And I don't have enough confidence in them (or any of them) to give my support.

And I don't appreciate being told who I should support.

In fact, an RBE is sounding a lot better all the time.

Not telling you who to vote for, just trying to figure out who you'd vote for in 2020 as a strict Constitutionalist.

My assumption was that you'd vote Republican before voting Democrat just on party platforms.

I'm not sure what you mean by RBE??

 

[YoursTruly]

Not telling you who to vote for, just trying to figure out who you'd vote for in 2020 as a strict Constitutionalist.

My assumption was that you'd vote Republican before voting Democrat just on party platforms.

I'm not sure what you mean by RBE??

I haven't even decided who'd I'd vote for, or even if I will vote this time. I'd vote for Justin Amash, if he was running for POTUS.
The last few Libertarians sucked.
The Constitution party is OK for the most part. But I haven't even looked at their platform since 2008.

 

[g5000]

A "real conservative" does nothing but cut taxes for the wealthy to "grow the economy", which never works and only succeeds in growing the $23T Debt.
If you know a "true conservative" that you's support as president, please tell me who he is and what his plans are to address the Debt. Here is my plan to address the Debt, they would all be screaming like stuck pigs:
1. The democrats would say the VAT, 3% sales tax hits the poor and middle class
2. The GOP would say the tax increase kills job creation and hurt businesses

A. Hire another "Grace Commission" to audit and fix the Federal budget deficit

B. Cut Spending: [CUT $625b a year]
1. Cut defense to 2017 levels of $600b until the Debt is reduced, saving $150b
2. Cut foreign aid $55b (until Debt is paid we can't borrow to give money away)
3. Cut Welfare $200b & Medicaid $200b (about half)
4. Cut education $20b (state responsibility)

C. To cover the $900b budget deficit the following taxes need to be raised:
1. Raise the top tax rate about 7% above 2016 levels +$400b
2. Implement a new 3% Fed sales tax +$400b
3. Implement a new transaction tax on all stocks & bonds Impose a Tax on Financial Transactions | Congressional Budget Office +$100b
4. Implement a new remittances tax/fee on all money sent out of the US https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/05/tax_remittances_can_build_the_wall.html 2% of $140b is +$3b a year

D. Reform entitlements, Medicare & Social Security, currently projected to be insolvent:

A real conservative, on the federal level supports ONLY what the US constitution allows. One of the more important aspects of this is the congressional authority to create money. Not pass it off to the Federal Reserve.
There's a few agencies that are unconstitutional. But could be deemed as such with the "promote for the general welfare" clause. But that's a HUGE stretch.

The Federal Reserve is the least worst of all options.

If we allowed Congress to just print money, then we would have Zimbabwe-scale inflation. Every time unemployment rose even a little bit, they would turn the crank on the money-printing machine.

This is basically what they have been doing by creating deficits, but it would be much worse if their hands were on the levers of the printing press.

 

[YoursTruly]

An RBE is a Resource Based Economy. No money. Even the government has no money. The government is extremely small. But they still function. As well as local governments, including police.
But without money, even the local governments would be small. As well as the police departments. Considering that most crimes are tied to money. Theft, fights, divorce, someone trying to snooker someone out of their money... etc etc

 

[g5000]

There are six ways to reduce a country's debt.

1. Declare you won't pay. This is what most people think of when they think of the word "default". See: Argentina.

2. Renegotiate the terms of your debt. See: Greece/Trump's bankrupt casinos.

3. Internal devaluation. Suppress wages to make your production costs competitive with other countries. See: Spain.

4. External devaluation. This is also a kind of default. Make your money lose its value. The most common way to achieve this is through inflation, but you can also de-peg your currency from a fixed exchange rate and just declare its new value.

5. Raise taxes/cut spending.

6. Economic growth. A growing economy means increased revenues. Simple enough. This is obviously the best option. However, GDP growth in the US has been steadily declining for decades, thanks in large part to our public and private debt overhang.



With $23 trillion in debt, numbers 4 and 5 are the only options remaining for the US. Basically, we're fucked. Higher taxes and inflation.

 

[YoursTruly]

The Federal Reserve is the least worst of all options.

If we allowed Congress to just print money, then we would have Zimbabwe-scale inflation. Every time unemployment rose even a little bit, they would turn the crank on the money-printing machine.

This is basically what they have been doing by creating deficits, but it would be much worse if their hands were on the levers of the printing press.

I respectfully disagree. At least we the people would have a say so in it. We could elect better people. With the Fed, we don't get any choice in how it's ran. Nor do we even know much about the inner workings of the Fed, since we don't elect any of the board members or even the chairman.

 

[YoursTruly]

There are six ways to reduce a country's debt.

1. Declare you won't pay. This is what most people think of when they think of the word "default". See: Argentina.

2. Renegotiate the terms of your debt. See: Greece/Trump's bankrupt casinos.

3. Internal devaluation. Suppress wages to make your production costs competitive with other countries. See: Spain.

4. External devaluation. This is also a kind of default. Make your money lose its value. The most common way to achieve this is through inflation, but you can also de-peg your currency from a fixed exchange rate and just declare its new value.

5. Raise taxes/cut spending.

6. Economic growth. A growing economy means increased revenues. Simple enough. This is obviously the best option. However, GDP growth in the US has been steadily declining for decades, thanks in large part to our public and private debt overhang.



With $23 trillion in debt, numbers 4 and 5 are the only options remaining for the US. Basically, we're fucked. Higher taxes and inflation.

Giving the government more money (increase taxes) only gives them more money to spend. They can pay down the debt. .1%. But borrow .2% more.

 

[g5000]

The Federal Reserve is the least worst of all options.

If we allowed Congress to just print money, then we would have Zimbabwe-scale inflation. Every time unemployment rose even a little bit, they would turn the crank on the money-printing machine.

This is basically what they have been doing by creating deficits, but it would be much worse if their hands were on the levers of the printing press.

I respectfully disagree. At least we the people would have a say so in it. We could elect better people. With the Fed, we don't get any choice in how it's ran. Nor do we even know much about the inner workings of the Fed, since we don't elect any of the board members or even the chairman.

We The People are far too stupid and selfish to regulate ourselves. Just look around this forum. There are retards who think Trump has reduced the deficit, when he has in fact doubled it.

Just spend a few minutes trying to explain how tax expenditures drive up tax rates and increase deficits and watch their eyes glaze over.

If people were collectively that smart and selfless, there would never be a country with hyperinflation.

That's the one great weakness of Libertarians (capital L). They haven't even the most basic understanding of human nature.

Any time unemployment rose, We The People would be screaming for the monetary printing presses to run overtime.

 

[g5000]

Think about it.

Congress has 15 percent approval, and yet for more than half a century now, 98 percent of all Representatives who run for re-election get re-elected. 80 percent of all Senators get re-elected.

"Those other assholes in Congress spend too much on PORK, but my guy brings home the BACON."


If Congress was allowed to run the monetary printing press, we would have hyperinflation in no time.

 

[g5000]

There are six ways to reduce a country's debt.

1. Declare you won't pay. This is what most people think of when they think of the word "default". See: Argentina.

2. Renegotiate the terms of your debt. See: Greece/Trump's bankrupt casinos.

3. Internal devaluation. Suppress wages to make your production costs competitive with other countries. See: Spain.

4. External devaluation. This is also a kind of default. Make your money lose its value. The most common way to achieve this is through inflation, but you can also de-peg your currency from a fixed exchange rate and just declare its new value.

5. Raise taxes/cut spending.

6. Economic growth. A growing economy means increased revenues. Simple enough. This is obviously the best option. However, GDP growth in the US has been steadily declining for decades, thanks in large part to our public and private debt overhang.



With $23 trillion in debt, numbers 4 and 5 are the only options remaining for the US. Basically, we're fucked. Higher taxes and inflation.

Giving the government more money (increase taxes) only gives them more money to spend. They can pay down the debt. .1%. But borrow .2% more.

There are many ways the government can tax you more without most people even catching on. That's the beauty of an income tax. Tweak a deduction here, adjust an exemption there, and revenues go up without the taxpayers catching on they are being taxed more.

Ask most people how much they paid in federal income taxes last year, and you will get a blank face. They can tell you how much their refund was, but have no clue what their total tax was. And that's why our politicians can fuck them in the ass without them ever knowing it.

Which is one of the many reasons I prefer the Fair Tax.

 

[g5000]

Our country's new motto: "Gimme gimme gimme, and make that guy over there pay for it."

Everyone has their hand out. Everyone is sucking the government tit.

Yet everyone thinks it's other people who are robbing the treasury. They are deliberately taught to believe this.

 

[g5000]

There are six ways to reduce a country's debt.

1. Declare you won't pay. This is what most people think of when they think of the word "default". See: Argentina.

2. Renegotiate the terms of your debt. See: Greece/Trump's bankrupt casinos.

3. Internal devaluation. Suppress wages to make your production costs competitive with other countries. See: Spain.

4. External devaluation. This is also a kind of default. Make your money lose its value. The most common way to achieve this is through inflation, but you can also de-peg your currency from a fixed exchange rate and just declare its new value.

5. Raise taxes/cut spending.

6. Economic growth. A growing economy means increased revenues. Simple enough. This is obviously the best option. However, GDP growth in the US has been steadily declining for decades, thanks in large part to our public and private debt overhang.



With $23 trillion in debt, numbers 4 and 5 are the only options remaining for the US. Basically, we're fucked. Higher taxes and inflation.

Giving the government more money (increase taxes) only gives them more money to spend. They can pay down the debt. .1%. But borrow .2% more.

Which is why they almost always resort to inflation.

 

[Natural Citizen]

You left out some very important facts which I invariably see people who hate the Fed make, which tells me you are all listening to the same manufacturer of bullshit.

First, the money which the Fed creates to buy Treasury bonds is destroyed when the Treasury pays back the money for those bonds. So that money is zeroed out. It is quite deliberate that this fact is never mentioned by End the Fed propagandists, only the money creation part is.

Second, the interest payments the Fed receives on the bonds is returned to the Treasury. So that, too, is zeroed out.

No, I've explained that part a few times around here, too. I just didn't do it this time because it wasn't the question that was asked.

If you borrow the very first dollar in existence and you promise to pay it back plus another dollar's worth of interest, where do you get the second dollar to pay the interest?

The answer is that you have to borrow that dollar into existence and promise to pay it back with interest as well. So, now there are 2 dollars in existence, but you now owe 4. And so on, and so on, and so on, and so on. It keeps happening over and over and over again. The result is that there is never enough currency to pay the debt. There is always more debt in the system than there is currency in existence to pay the debt. Therefore the entire system is impossible. It is finite. It will come to an end one day.

What would happen if the public stopped borrowing and going deeper into debt? Are your house and car payments going to stop? No. They're not. There is a payment due every month on the principal plus the interest on every dollar in existence and those payments do not stop. If we stop borrowing, then no new currency is created to replace the currency that we used to make those payments. Whether you're making a payment on a loan or paying a tax to make a payment on a Treasury bond, the portion of the payment that goes to pay off the principal extinguishes that portion of the debt. BUT...the debt also extinguishes the currency. When currency and debt meet, they destroy each other. If we just pay off the principal only, all of the loans and Treasury bonds that exist, the entire 'currency' supply vanishes. So, if we don't go deeper into debt every year, the whole thing goes into a deflationary collapse under the weight of those payments.

People always talk about balancing the budget, bringing down the debt, and living within our means. But they don't understand that this is deflationary. It is impossible to do under our current monetary system without collapsing the entire economy. This is why any talk of a debt ceiling is not only ridiculous, it's delusional. The system is designed to require ever-increasing levels of debt just to continue. And that's why politicians will always kick the can down the road and raise the so-called debt ceiling over and over again until the whole system finally collapses under its own weight. Only reason it hasn't yet is very simple. They don't want it hapening on their watch.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Uh-huh, that's great except for the fact that the debt is continuously rolled over and increased because the Federal Government needs to borrow in order to cover not only it's ever increasing operating deficit but also to cover debt service costs for outstanding debt, so the reality is that there is no "zeroing out" net effect.

And while yes the Federal Reserve does indeed rebate any interest earned on Treasury debt back to the Treasury, everybody else that buys those bonds and earns interest on them DOESN'T so it's not "zeroed" and it ends up as net increase in the money supply requiring the Fed to intensify OMO and other money supply manipulation efforts to stabilize the value of the currency.

Our currency is based on debt a fact that is never mentioned by Federal Reserve Fiat Currency Apologists.

Exactly!

 

[bendog]

I've heard a little talk around here from time to time about the National Debt with each side blaming the other side for the size of it. I just checked the amount of the debt, and it's going up a million dollars in the time that I was there, and considering that was a few minutes ago. The National Debt as of 12/29/2019 is $23,160,651,000,000.00 as of CST 8:44 pm.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

How important do you think the National Debt is going to be in the election of 2020? Is that too much money right now? Please add your thoughts below. Voting on this poll ends in 45 days. Thank you.

You would have to look at the last time the budget was balanced to find how a compromise works. There will never be another compromise while Trump is potus, and McConnell said in 2017 he wasn't doing entitlement reform while Trump was potus.

Would Biden support a compromise? Probably. Could the gop do that even if Trump and McConnell were defeated? I dunno. At one time McConnell would have compromised. I'm not sure anymore.