30 Years of Class War

[Dragon]

And the people who will survive are the ones who not only learned how to swim but practiced and trained to perfect their skills.

Not quite. Those that survive are the ones that practiced and trained to perfect their skills better than others. Which means that:

Those that didn't essentially chose to drown

This isn't true. We have a system in which the bottom X% MUST drown, no matter how well they swim -- as long as others swim better than they can.

The question is, do we really want to live in a society in which the competition is as nasty as that, and the bar to success that high and unforgiving?

Because we don't have to.

 

[Defiant1]

Skull opines

And every one of those things is available to everyone.

Poppycock.

Just because some people use what's available more efficiently so as to earn a profit is no reason to vilify them.

ONLY villians need be villified. Certainly not all the welathy are villians in the drama we are facing right now
.

.Most people who are just eking out a living are doing it because ultimately that's what they've chosen to do.

Ah yes, the great REPUBLICAN LIE

People choosing to be poor.

People chose to stay poor.

 

[georgephillip]

CLASS STRUGGLE is part and parcel of civilization. THAT is unavoidable

Every policy in any society that is not flat (ie is not classless) will effect the different classes within that society differently. There is really NO avoiding that reality.

Here's the thing about the term "class WAR".

It is like beauty -- it exists in the eyes of the beholder.

So when exactly does a class struggle really become class war?

Right now. many people in the middle class feel that they have been rode hard and put away wet by the MASTERS. (they're right, of course)

Why the change in attitude?

Previously if you'd asked most middle class people, they wouldn't have even believed there WERE classes in America.

We've recently read people posts here insisting that there are no classes in America, have we not?

REAL class WAR doesn't start until the society openly goes to war based on CLASS.

What the middle and lower classes are facing now is really CLASS BETRAYAL by the MASTERS and their tools.

The masters betrayed the res tof the nation by advincing policies that benefited them, at the expense of their fellow CITIZENS and the nation as a whole.

It's not class WAR...not yet.

Hopefully, not ever.

There is much we can do to pour oil on the troubled waters of this Republic.

But the first thing we have got to do is acknowledge that we are first AMERICANS, and then members of a class within that society that ALSO has rights and RESPONSIBLITIES.

What is the responsibility of the MASTERS? -- to oversee the nations well being. Of late it appears they are abandoning that obligation.

What is the responsibility of the REST OF SOCIETY? -- to obey the laws, to work and to pay taxes, and in time of crises? To send their sons and daughters to war in defence of the ENTIRE NATION.

Well, the lower classes have always done THEIR DUTY.

It's time for the MASTERS to do THEIRS.

Nothing the GOP is advancing is consistent with that premise.

FWIW, very little the DNC is advancing is a whole lot better.

The masters need to remember who made them wealth; whose labors they benefitted from; whose children died for them; and who ultimately the nation belongs to.

The Republic belongs to ALL OF US

This REPUBLIC belong to the people EN MASSE, not just the wealthy and their loyal tools.

If we continue to fail to recognize this social contract, then the USA is ultimately doomed to become (at best) a third world nation.

If your definition of "social contract" includes the notion that all governments result from a voluntary agreement among all people to form one, the principle that says each person carries equal weight in the conduct of the public business doesn't seem to exist in our Republic.

The social contract seems to offer a solution; the people have the right (obligation?) to form an entirely new government if the terms of the contract are being violated by the existing one.

FLUSH Republicans AND Democrats from DC in November 2012.

 

[Bfgrn]

And the people who will survive are the ones who not only learned how to swim but practiced and trained to perfect their skills.

Not quite. Those that survive are the ones that practiced and trained to perfect their skills better than others. Which means that:

Those that didn't essentially chose to drown

This isn't true. We have a system in which the bottom X% MUST drown, no matter how well they swim -- as long as others swim better than they can.

The question is, do we really want to live in a society in which the competition is as nasty as that, and the bar to success that high and unforgiving?

Because we don't have to.

Dragon, I have read many of your posts and find them intelligent and enlightening. You started a thread where you talked about Marx and questioned what he overlooked. I believe what he overlooked is that the authoritarian personalities ultimately gain power. Skull Pilot is identical to the authoritarian conservatives in Russia which has devolved into social Darwinism and corrupt capitalism. Their environmental, social and economic beliefs cannot be separated. I call them Marketists.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[georgephillip]

They deserve it.

Nobody gets rich alone.

"Wealthy people also claim that they've earned whatever they have. But they've made their fortunes with considerable help from society. Government-funded research, infrastructure growth, national security, and property laws have largely benefited rich individuals and corporations. DARPA (the Internet), NIH (medicine), and NSF and NASA (science) have laid a half-century foundation for profit-seeking corporations."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams

And every one of those things is available to everyone. Just because some people use what's available more efficiently so as to earn a profit is no reason to vilify them.

Most people who are just eking out a living are doing it because ultimately that's what they've chosen to do.

Define "efficiently."

Do you mean the rich are more efficient at bribing politicians to keep their tax rates low?
Is there some other reason why the richest 400 Americans pay taxes at a 17% rate while other citizens pay at 26%?

If the median household income had kept its share of our collective economic expansion since 1970 it would now be closer to $90,000 per year instead of $50,000; that seems like a more efficient use of our collective resources to me.

 

[healthmyths]

"Redistribution of income has been taking place since 1980, when the top 1% already had a large piece of the pie (7%).

"Then they took a second piece (7% more).

"Then they took a third piece (7% more).

"That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000..."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams

Vote Republican OR Democrat in 2012 and give the 1% another 7% (or) more.

1) Where did all this GDP come from if the "PIE doesn't get bigger, i.e. the "filthy bad evil wealthy takes more"
NOW as far as "finite wealth".... WHERE DID THIS GDP of $12 trillion come from if IT WAS FINITE???
Consider what the gross domestic product of the USA was in 1800...
GDP in 2005 dollars Population GDP per capita in 2005 dollars.
1800 $ 12,987 5,297,000 $ 1,396
1900 $ 422,843 76,094,000 5,556
2009 12,987,400 307,483,000 42,247
Measuring Worth - Measures of worth, inflation rates, saving calculator, relative value, worth of a dollar, worth of a pound, purchasing power, gold prices, GDP, history of wages, average wage

2) Did you ever consider that the reason for this:
"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970[/B], it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000.
a) In preparing your personnel budget be sure to include allowances for Social Security/FICA (currently 6.2% on the first $90,000 of salary – The United States Social Security Administration), Unemployment/FUTA (6.2% on $7,000 of salary - Unemployment Insurance Tax Topic, Employment & Training Administration (ETA) - U.S. Department of Labor) and Medicare (1.45% with no salary cap – The United States Social Security Administration). Workmen’s compensation premiums will depend on the category of your employee, with clerical at about 0.3% of salary and manufacturing at 7.5%.

b)The costs to this point (basic salary, employment taxes and benefits) are typically in the 1.25 to 1.4 times base salary range- e.g. the cost range for a $50,000/year employee might $62,500 to $70,000.
How Much Does An Employee Cost

in 1970s these were lower...
AND

“You have been selected at random for inspection to ensure you are in compliance with our record keeping requirements. You must have all employee files available for our inspectors within 72 hours. Please refer to our website www.dol.gov/esa/whd. This will guide you as to what information we will be looking for. Thank you in advance for your time."
Employee Recordkeeping Requirements

 

[georgephillip]

"There were errors processing your request:"

Measuring Worth - Measures of worth, inflation rates, saving calculator, relative value, worth of a dollar, worth of a pound, purchasing power, gold prices, GDP, history of wages, average wage

 

[Dragon]

1) Where did all this GDP come from if the "PIE doesn't get bigger

Talking to yourself again?

I recommend addressing what people have actually said instead of making shit up. It's more challenging, true, but also more rewarding if you can manage it.

 

[georgephillip]

"Many have commented on the remarkable callousness fashioned by this Republican presidential field.

"Most prominently, Herman Cain maintained that the poor and unemployed are responsible for their own plight; Ron Paul claimed that people who refrain from buying health insurance but become debilitated should not be bailed out by government healthcare—they should just die instead, his audience helpfully suggested (or hollered, rather); and just about all the candidates have recommended ever harsher, ever more absurd measures to keep out poor immigrants on our border with Mexico: double fences, electric fences, even soldiers with ‘real guns and real bullets,’ as Herman Cain put it..."

The Wrath of Ayn Rand | Common Dreams

You have to wonder how hard it would be for OWS to convince millions of US voters in 2012 to vote AGAINST any presidential candidate coming from the 1% .

That would be Hope and Change and Revolution.

 

[healthmyths]

"Redistribution of income has been taking place since 1980, when the top 1% already had a large piece of the pie (7%).

"Then they took a second piece (7% more).

"Then they took a third piece (7% more).

"That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000..."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams

Vote Republican OR Democrat in 2012 and give the 1% another 7% (or) more.

AND the POOR GET RICHER!!!!

In 2008, the fund that foots the bill for this program contributed $819 million to subsidize low-income telephone services.
The fund is projected to grow to over $1 billion this year. That’s $1 billion of over $800 billion the United States will spend on welfare in 2010. Welfare recipients now eligible to receive cell phones
Welfare recipients now eligible to receive cell phones
a) Free Cell phone (my cell phone I PAY is about $100/month)
if the poor person receives just one of the below:
Food stamps * Medicaid * Section 8 * Supplemental Security Income * National School Lunch Program
b) FREE FOOD..
40 million Americans on food stamps get $200/month in free food.
c) Free RENT about 2.1 million households (6 million) use Section 8 the Housing Choice Voucher program, pays a large portion of the rents and utilities of or the Housing Choice Voucher Program up to $1,000 /month in FREE housing...

So these people get
=== $ 5,666 in EIC cash, FREE MONEY on tax RETURNS
=== $12,000 free housing ,
=== $ 2,400 free food,
=== $ 1,200 in free cell phone plus
=== $ 5,000 a year in free health care from Medicaid.
So this is about $26,000 a year in FREE MONEY, free goods and free services...

 

[georgephillip]

CLASS STRUGGLE is part and parcel of civilization. THAT is unavoidable

Every policy in any society that is not flat (ie is not classless) will effect the different classes within that society differently. There is really NO avoiding that reality.

Here's the thing about the term "class WAR".

It is like beauty -- it exists in the eyes of the beholder.

So when exactly does a class struggle really become class war?

Right now. many people in the middle class feel that they have been rode hard and put away wet by the MASTERS. (they're right, of course)

Why the change in attitude?

Previously if you'd asked most middle class people, they wouldn't have even believed there WERE classes in America.

We've recently read people posts here insisting that there are no classes in America, have we not?

REAL class WAR doesn't start until the society openly goes to war based on CLASS.

What the middle and lower classes are facing now is really CLASS BETRAYAL by the MASTERS and their tools.

The masters betrayed the res tof the nation by advincing policies that benefited them, at the expense of their fellow CITIZENS and the nation as a whole.

It's not class WAR...not yet.

Hopefully, not ever.

There is much we can do to pour oil on the troubled waters of this Republic.

But the first thing we have got to do is acknowledge that we are first AMERICANS, and then members of a class within that society that ALSO has rights and RESPONSIBLITIES.

What is the responsibility of the MASTERS? -- to oversee the nations well being. Of late it appears they are abandoning that obligation.

What is the responsibility of the REST OF SOCIETY? -- to obey the laws, to work and to pay taxes, and in time of crises? To send their sons and daughters to war in defence of the ENTIRE NATION.

Well, the lower classes have always done THEIR DUTY.

It's time for the MASTERS to do THEIRS.

Nothing the GOP is advancing is consistent with that premise.

FWIW, very little the DNC is advancing is a whole lot better.

The masters need to remember who made them wealthy. Whose labors they benefitted from, whose children died for them, and who ultimately the nation belongs to. It belongs to ALL OF US

This REPUBLIC belong to the people EN MASSE, not just the wealthy and their loyal tools.

If we continue to fail to recognize this, then the USA is ultimately doomed to become (at best) a third world nation.

Back in 2006, then Senator elect Jim Webb wrote a great op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal.


Class Struggle

BY JIM WEBB
Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

The most important--and unfortunately the least debated--issue in politics today is our society's steady drift toward a class-based system, the likes of which we have not seen since the 19th century. America's top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. It is not unfair to say that they are literally living in a different country. Few among them send their children to public schools; fewer still send their loved ones to fight our wars. They own most of our stocks, making the stock market an unreliable indicator of the economic health of working people. The top 1% now takes in an astounding 16% of national income, up from 8% in 1980. The tax codes protect them, just as they protect corporate America, through a vast system of loopholes.

Incestuous corporate boards regularly approve compensation packages for chief executives and others that are out of logic's range. As this newspaper has reported, the average CEO of a sizeable corporation makes more than $10 million a year, while the minimum wage for workers amounts to about $10,000 a year, and has not been raised in nearly a decade. When I graduated from college in the 1960s, the average CEO made 20 times what the average worker made. Today, that CEO makes 400 times as much.

In the age of globalization and outsourcing, and with a vast underground labor pool from illegal immigration, the average American worker is seeing a different life and a troubling future. Trickle-down economics didn't happen. Despite the vaunted all-time highs of the stock market, wages and salaries are at all-time lows as a percentage of the national wealth. At the same time, medical costs have risen 73% in the last six years alone. Half of that increase comes from wage-earners' pockets rather than from insurance, and 47 million Americans have no medical insurance at all.

Manufacturing jobs are disappearing. Many earned pension programs have collapsed in the wake of corporate "reorganization." And workers' ability to negotiate their futures has been eviscerated by the twin threats of modern corporate America: If they complain too loudly, their jobs might either be outsourced overseas or given to illegal immigrants.

This ever-widening divide is too often ignored or downplayed by its beneficiaries. A sense of entitlement has set in among elites, bordering on hubris. When I raised this issue with corporate leaders during the recent political campaign, I was met repeatedly with denials, and, from some, an overt lack of concern for those who are falling behind. A troubling arrogance is in the air among the nation's most fortunate. Some shrug off large-scale economic and social dislocations as the inevitable byproducts of the "rough road of capitalism." Others claim that it's the fault of the worker or the public education system, that the average American is simply not up to the international challenge, that our education system fails us, or that our workers have become spoiled by old notions of corporate paternalism.

The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of "God, guns, gays, abortion and the flag" while their way of life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet.

More

Opinion & Commentary - Wall Street Journal - Wsj.com

It's worth remembering what's happened since 2006.

When the mushroom cloud of control accounting fraud exploded in 2008 the richest 5% of Americans nearly doubled their "fair" share of returns to wealth (interest, dividends and rents) in less than one generation.

The 1% is invested in ways to ensure they profit regardless of what happens in the US or global economy. Taking back what they have plundered and prosecuting those responsible for the fraud would reverse trickle down in less than a single generation.

PS I don't think any Republicans OR Democrats currently running for office are willing to take sides against the richest 1% of Americans.

 

[georgephillip]

"Redistribution of income has been taking place since 1980, when the top 1% already had a large piece of the pie (7%).

"Then they took a second piece (7% more).

"Then they took a third piece (7% more).

"That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000..."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams

Vote Republican OR Democrat in 2012 and give the 1% another 7% (or) more.

AND the POOR GET RICHER!!!!

In 2008, the fund that foots the bill for this program contributed $819 million to subsidize low-income telephone services.
The fund is projected to grow to over $1 billion this year. That’s $1 billion of over $800 billion the United States will spend on welfare in 2010. Welfare recipients now eligible to receive cell phones
Welfare recipients now eligible to receive cell phones
a) Free Cell phone (my cell phone I PAY is about $100/month)
if the poor person receives just one of the below:
Food stamps * Medicaid * Section 8 * Supplemental Security Income * National School Lunch Program
b) FREE FOOD..
40 million Americans on food stamps get $200/month in free food.
c) Free RENT about 2.1 million households (6 million) use Section 8 the Housing Choice Voucher program, pays a large portion of the rents and utilities of or the Housing Choice Voucher Program up to $1,000 /month in FREE housing...

So these people get
=== $ 5,666 in EIC cash, FREE MONEY on tax RETURNS
=== $12,000 free housing ,
=== $ 2,400 free food,
=== $ 1,200 in free cell phone plus
=== $ 5,000 a year in free health care from Medicaid.
So this is about $26,000 a year in FREE MONEY, free goods and free services...

Tell the 1%

"According to a team at Bloomberg News, at one point last year the U.S. had lent, spent or guaranteed as much as $12.8 trillion to rescue the economy. The Bloomberg reporters have been following that money. Alison Stewart spoke with one, Bob Ivry, to talk about the true cost to the taxpayer of the Wall Street bailout."

The true cost of the bank bailout | Need to Know | PBS

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull opines

And every one of those things is available to everyone.

Poppycock.

So all those things that you people laud the almighty government for like roads, sewers train tracks fire and police departments etc ad nauseum are only available to the evil rich to use for business?

Bullshit.

Just because some people use what's available more efficiently so as to earn a profit is no reason to vilify them.

.Most people who are just eking out a living are doing it because ultimately that's what they've chosen to do.

Ah yes, the great REPUBLICAN LIE

People choosing to be poor.

I'm not a repugnantcan.

Everything that a person does is ultimately boiled down to a choice. You may not want to believe that but I do. If you are working at a dead end job then it is your fault not some rich guy's fault.

 

[georgephillip]

Whose fault is it when rich guys outsource millions of good jobs to China?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Whose fault is it when rich guys outsource millions of good jobs to China?

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

 

[georgephillip]

Whose fault is it when rich guys outsource millions of good jobs to China?

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Whose fault is it when rich guys outsource millions of good jobs to China?

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

 

[Steelplate]

Not only that George... but the surest path to our economic doom is to keep minimizing labor. Most people can barely keep their heads above water these days, more and more people can't afford the gadgets that keep millionaires and billionaires in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.

The banks are in collusion with those millionaires and billionaires. They offered easy credit to everyday people because they saw this trend of working people having less... Kid wants an Xbox for Christmas...Charge it.... pay it over time. How many Credit card offers do you get in a week? How many "Capital One" commercials do you see on TV? Personal Credit and debt is the Right wings answer to paying a livable wage and keeping costs of products down. They can't do either of those things, because that makes THEIR profits and their own personal earnings less. It's no skin off their noses if the vast majority of the American Public goes into hock up to their ears....until they can't get credit anymore, but by that time... they are betting that they can open up new markets abroad to make up for our lack of spending power. In short, they are abandoning us. They are the anti-American Traitors... and "Conservatives" are more than willing to help them in their cause.

 

[Steelplate]

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

Why are you so willing to potentially destroy our natural resources and our environment? Why is it all or nothing with you guys? I find it amusing that a small country like Denmark can virtually run their whole country on Green energy, but the greatest country in the world is stuck with 1950's technology because very rich people don't want to change.

 

[Bfgrn]

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

I get a kick out of you right wingers. And you ARE a right winger, no matter what you call yourself. The groundswell of resistance to the pipeline is local in nature. By the people who will actually have to live with the pipeline in their back yard. Isn't THAT the way policies should be debated and ultimately decided? How conveniently you 'so-called' less government, state's rights crowd have NO problem having the feds dictate when it fits YOUR agenda.

Of those 20,000 new "good" jobs, how many will go to Americans? How many will go to local communities? How many will be permanent? I've dealt with big pipeline contractors. They rarely if ever hire locals. They are a group of testosterone pumped vagabond types who disrupt local communities.