A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[sinister59]

Whining about "Water-Boarding" was all about petty politics for the Left. These are the same people who love running around cheerleading and boasting about brutally slaughtering Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren and shooting an unarmed man in the face,in his home and in front of his children. I never give the Left credibility on anything. Yea lets all freak out over dunking some brutal Terrorist's head in some water.

The War Mongering Left has lost any credibility they may have had on this stuff. Anyone with common sense knows that pretending to be outraged over "Water-Boarding" was all about them wanting to get the power back. A way to get rid of their BOOOOOOSH Boogeyman. Now that they have the power back,anything goes. Just another Leftist/Democrat scam in the end.

really / congress determined it torture , torture is against the Geneva convention , we are signatures of that . its against American policy .
you blame libs for renouncing it ?

so stopping torture is a political ploy ?
as for warmongering ? who got us into war with iraq ? how many wars have the libs got us into ?

your a repig so you think if you say it enough it will become fact ,
no it want .

to me waterboarding is not torture , next they'll band harsh scolding .

but if our country says it toture then its wrong .

you must hate whistleblower

 

[xsited1]

morality is absolute.

if it's wrong to to torture an american criminal, then it's wrong to torture a foreign terrorist.

you can disagree that torture is immoral, but you cannot argue that it's moral in some situations, but not others.

I understand your position because we've discussed this a year or two ago.

So who defines morality? You say torture is wrong in every circumstance. I can respect that, although my hunch is that you might approve of it in extreme situations (especially those of a personal nature). But you're saying that those who don't believe as you do on the matter of torture are not true Americans. That seems a bit extreme to me.

And here's the moral dilemma... If some of the intelligence used to locate and kill OBL was gleaned from waterboarding, should America have used that intelligence?

i don't believe that i made a blanket statement to the effect that anyone who disagrees with me is not a true american.

i believe people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong.

whether they choose to use it is another story.

My apologies. I couldn't remember exactly what you said so I had to locate the post:

i support any type of questioning or method that doesn't turn us into the kind of animals we are supposedly fighting.

you appear to feel that the end justifies whatever means employed to attain that end.

you may live here and have citizenship, but you're no american as far as i'm concerned.

i bet you look good in brown.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3632303-post97.html

I wish I could believe that people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, but I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, that's your position and I respect that.

So what about the "moral dilemma" question I posed? What's your answer on that?

 

[Samson]

]

this message cannot be viewed because del is on your ignore list.

are you covering your ears and yelling lalalalalala?

because that's very effective too.

 

[del]

I understand your position because we've discussed this a year or two ago.

So who defines morality? You say torture is wrong in every circumstance. I can respect that, although my hunch is that you might approve of it in extreme situations (especially those of a personal nature). But you're saying that those who don't believe as you do on the matter of torture are not true Americans. That seems a bit extreme to me.

And here's the moral dilemma... If some of the intelligence used to locate and kill OBL was gleaned from waterboarding, should America have used that intelligence?

i don't believe that i made a blanket statement to the effect that anyone who disagrees with me is not a true american.

i believe people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong.

whether they choose to use it is another story.

My apologies. I couldn't remember exactly what you said so I had to locate the post:

i support any type of questioning or method that doesn't turn us into the kind of animals we are supposedly fighting.

you appear to feel that the end justifies whatever means employed to attain that end.

you may live here and have citizenship, but you're no american as far as i'm concerned.

i bet you look good in brown.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3632303-post97.html

I wish I could believe that people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, but I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, that's your position and I respect that.

So what about the "moral dilemma" question I posed? What's your answer on that?

we shouldn't have used it. i don't know of any way to prove one way or the other whether waterboarding provided info that helped track down OBL, but the fruit of the poisoned tree concept applies, imo.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Who said it was great? its a tool being used against animals who have utterly no hesitation in slaughtering innocent people for no other reason than they don't worship the same religion.

I'm having an extremely hard time coming up with any compassion for the tools of Islam had I my choice they would suffer very long and horrible deaths. We expect our Government to use everything within its power to fulfill the one role where it might do some good that being protect our nation and people how they do it is up to them.

so if the govt decided to round up all americans of a certain ethnic or religious background in order to protect us, you'd be okay with that?

Also, there can be no way of knowing how many people were waterboarded that were innocent and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If waterboarding is like taking a cold shower and for a few minutes believing you are drowning, why were all the videos destroyed?

This thread, led by Del, has done a wonderful job of exposing the pro-waterboarders.

The reason they don't want it used on american suspects, is because they know it's no better than regular interrogation and that there is a physical abuse aspect.

They've gone all in with republicans, and they like knowing terrorists are being put through pain, obtaining information for security reasons is the last thing they care about or they'd want this information used on american suspects as well.

Very eye opening, I learned a lot.

 

[MaggieMae]

Here's a scenario for y'all:

Quite recently, our security services intercepted the components of a dirty bomb being smuggled into the United States.

Which would you prefer:

a. that we got down and dirty, got the information we needed, and intercepted the dirty bomb components.

b. that we play by the rules of morality, did not get the information, the terrorist got the components into the country, set it off at, say, a major sporting event.... let's go with the superbowl. Thousands died in the initial blast, hundreds of thousands died in the following years. And one of America's major cities, and it's surrounding areas became an uninhabitable wasteland for hundreds of years.

It is all very well to be against such techniques, I think we are all theoretically against such things. At the end of the day, no matter what led us here, this is where we are and I for one will stand by those who do whatever it takes to keep the rest of us safe to bitch and moan and complain about them.

But what if the perp lied about the location? To stop torture, he could easily say that a bomb was set to go off in Grand Central Station, not the Superbowl. The problem with waterboarding is that there's no guarantee of getting the truth anyway. I've heard interrogators say that a much more effective way of getting information out of an Islamic terrorist is to smear vaginal blood on him, threaten to kidnap his wife and kids after they are raped, and similar ghastly threats that not only go against their religion but are far more effective.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

If you can jump for joy and boast about killing Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren or blowing an unarmed man's face off,you have no right to whine about dunking some brutal Terrorist's head in some water. The War Mongering Left sounds more dishonest and nonsensical by the day. Their phony outrage over Water-Boarding was all about getting the power back. Nothing more,nothing less. And that's the fact Jack.

 

[xsited1]

i don't believe that i made a blanket statement to the effect that anyone who disagrees with me is not a true american.

i believe people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong.

whether they choose to use it is another story.

My apologies. I couldn't remember exactly what you said so I had to locate the post:

i support any type of questioning or method that doesn't turn us into the kind of animals we are supposedly fighting.

you appear to feel that the end justifies whatever means employed to attain that end.

you may live here and have citizenship, but you're no american as far as i'm concerned.

i bet you look good in brown.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3632303-post97.html

I wish I could believe that people are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, but I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, that's your position and I respect that.

So what about the "moral dilemma" question I posed? What's your answer on that?

we shouldn't have used it. i don't know of any way to prove one way or the other whether waterboarding provided info that helped track down OBL, but the fruit of the poisoned tree concept applies, imo.

That's my thought as well. Thanks for the exchange.

 

[Mr.Nick]

My view on waterboarding is that I feel bad for those who really didn't do anything wrong but were tortured. I have no sympathy for actual terrorists that get waterboarded.

I totally support waterboarding on actual terrorists.

I would like to assume our military only waterboards KNOWN radicals and not civilians they "suspect" may have intel.

 

[The Rabbi]

My view on waterboarding is that I feel bad for those who really didn't do anything wrong but were tortured. I have no sympathy for actual terrorists that get waterboarded.

I totally support waterboarding on actual terrorists.

I would like to assume our military only waterboards KNOWN radicals and not civilians they "suspect" may have intel.

You realize that waterboarding is not a punishment, and therefore no one does anything "wrong" to get it, right? The only think wrong people can do is withhold information vital to saving American lives.

 

[sinister59]

Here's a scenario for y'all:

Quite recently, our security services intercepted the components of a dirty bomb being smuggled into the United States.

Which would you prefer:

a. that we got down and dirty, got the information we needed, and intercepted the dirty bomb components.

b. that we play by the rules of morality, did not get the information, the terrorist got the components into the country, set it off at, say, a major sporting event.... let's go with the superbowl. Thousands died in the initial blast, hundreds of thousands died in the following years. And one of America's major cities, and it's surrounding areas became an uninhabitable wasteland for hundreds of years.

It is all very well to be against such techniques, I think we are all theoretically against such things. At the end of the day, no matter what led us here, this is where we are and I for one will stand by those who do whatever it takes to keep the rest of us safe to bitch and moan and complain about them.

But what if the perp lied about the location? To stop torture, he could easily say that a bomb was set to go off in Grand Central Station, not the Superbowl. The problem with waterboarding is that there's no guarantee of getting the truth anyway. I've heard interrogators say that a much more effective way of getting information out of an Islamic terrorist is to smear vaginal blood on him, threaten to kidnap his wife and kids after they are raped, and similar ghastly threats that not only go against their religion but are far more effective.

you sound english .
they fore a long time thought you could not believe a commoners testimony unless you tortured them first .

 

[MaggieMae]

oye, what a joke. Waterboarding is not torture. It is uncomfortable. It's scary, but it's still not torture. If we start lopping off fingers and crushing testicles- that is torture.

Been waterboarded, have you? If not, your opinion doesn't mean much. I'll take the word of that conservative talkshow host who said the same thing, until he tried it himself.

Also Christopher Hitchens volunteered to experience waterboarding. The Vanity Fair article that accompanies the video is pretty funny. He talks about his weight and his smoking habit that might play a part in how long he could stand it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7u-Wk1aU-E]YouTube - Christopher Hitchens Gets Waterboarded[/ame]

Obviously the a "code word" to stop isn't given during the real thing.

 

[Mr.Nick]

My view on waterboarding is that I feel bad for those who really didn't do anything wrong but were tortured. I have no sympathy for actual terrorists that get waterboarded.

I totally support waterboarding on actual terrorists.

I would like to assume our military only waterboards KNOWN radicals and not civilians they "suspect" may have intel.

You realize that waterboarding is not a punishment, and therefore no one does anything "wrong" to get it, right? The only think wrong people can do is withhold information vital to saving American lives.

I never implied it was a punishment... Its a tool to get information and I know that.

I suppose if you look at it philosophically - it is a punishment to the innocent.

I support waterboarding, I just don't like to see innocent people who know nothing get the hose (pun intended indeed)..

 

[Sheldon]

The pretend conservative position on waterboarding has always seemed strange to me.

On one hand these are the people that argue the government is inept, corrupt, and shouldn't be trusted, and who frequently invoke the slippery-slope to authoritarianism argument when criticizing government policies.

But on the other hand these same people argue that this same government should have the ability to torture.

 

[DiamondDave]

so if the govt decided to round up all americans of a certain ethnic or religious background in order to protect us, you'd be okay with that?

Also, there can be no way of knowing how many people were waterboarded that were innocent and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If waterboarding is like taking a cold shower and for a few minutes believing you are drowning, why were all the videos destroyed?

This thread, led by Del, has done a wonderful job of exposing the pro-waterboarders.

The reason they don't want it used on american suspects, is because they know it's no better than regular interrogation and that there is a physical abuse aspect.

They've gone all in with republicans, and they like knowing terrorists are being put through pain, obtaining information for security reasons is the last thing they care about or they'd want this information used on american suspects as well.

Very eye opening, I learned a lot.

Nice assumption... not at all the truth.... but you seemed to like using that to twist circumstances to fit your argument position

 

[bodecea]

The pretend conservative position on waterboarding has always seemed strange to me.

On one hand these are the people that argue the government is inept, corrupt, and shouldn't be trusted, and who frequently invoke the slippery-slope to authoritarianism argument when criticizing government policies.

But on the other hand these same people argue that this same government should have the ability to torture.

It IS a Puzzlement.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Don't you dare dunk that brutal Terrorist's head under water but by all means bomb and slaughter Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren. I don't trust the Left on this stuff. These same Leftys are now the biggest War Mongers in this country. It's all about politics & power for these people. Now they have the power so anything goes i guess. Same ole same ole. Nothing changes.

 

[MaggieMae]

Umm it is not a legal declared war.

Mere technicality. We haven't had a "legal declared war" since WW II. That's particularly aimed at Cons who applauded Bush's call for a War on Terror who used fear, like talk of WMDs, to get what he wanted, but now lambaste Obama just because OBL died. PUHLEEEEEZZZZ, is this National Hypocrite Month?

You tell me.... you're the one now defending Obama's ordered assassination of a foreign national, on foreign soil by Dick Cheney's Death Squad.

Oh, now bin Laden is merely a "foreign national." Did you try to find out where you can send flowers?

 

[Valerie]

How reliable is information obtained under "coercive interrogation"?


There is no clear-cut answer. Studies of interrogation and torture have found that fear motivates people to talk.


However, studies have also shown that people will say anything when subjected to intense pain, and there have been several examples of people detained in the war on terror who have given false information under duress. Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who ran Al Qaeda's Khalden training camp in Afghanistan, told authorities that Iraq provided chemical and biological weapons training to Al Qaeda operatives, and that information wound up in Secretary of State Colin Powell's Feb. 7, 2003 speech to the U.N. making the case for war in Iraq. Al-Libi later recanted, saying he made it all up under coercive interrogation. And, as human rights lawyer Michael Ratner told FRONTLINE, after undergoing a year and a half of coercive interrogation at Guantanamo, his clients known as the "Tipton Three" admitted to being present at a speech by Osama bin Laden at an Al Qaeda training camp. British authorities later uncovered evidence that the men were in the U.K. at the time they had admitted to meeting bin Laden.

Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[bodecea]

Don't you dare dunk that brutal Terrorist's head under water but by all means bomb and slaughter Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren. I don't trust the Left on this stuff. These same Leftys are now the biggest War Mongers in this country. It's all about politics & power for these people. Now they have the power so anything goes i guess. Same ole same ole. Nothing changes.

My condolences. Were you guys close?