A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[bigrebnc1775]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

Because the Terrorists have succeeded in terrorizing people to the point that they are eager to sell their principles for some perception of safety.

Right, so while you're on the moral high ground do you think it's ok to shoot an unarmed man?

 

[JimH52]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?


I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

Because the Terrorists have succeeded in terrorizing people to the point that they are eager to sell their principles for some perception of safety.

Right, so while you're on the moral high ground do you think it's ok to shoot an unarmed man?

You lose. I will wait for the photo of the bumper sticker.

 

[spectrumc01]

There are really only two POV's on this issue of waterboarding, you are either Ok with it or not. This comes down to a moral principal which a person has regarding torture. The question that must be asked is wether or not we are comfortable with others inflicting pain on another person, on our behalf. Lets face it, how many of us could actually torture someone else? What kind of person can do such a thing, and how as a society could we ask someone to do it on our behalf? When a soldier waterboards a terrorist what are we doing to the soldier, does anyone ever think about that? Perhaps we should let the BTK killer do the waterboarding, he seems right for the job. Do we want someone walking around in our society who tortures people for a living? Do we want this persons identity made public? Can a torturer just stop torturing when they have done it for an extended period of time? Does the torturer get counciling before and after? This is a hell of a thing to ask of someone to do and we should think long and hard before we ask them to do it.

Again with the moral high ground? You cannot not claim waterboarding is bad, and say it was good to kill an unarmed man. No matter how much you may have hated him. No matter how much the government viewed him as an enmey.

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first. When we were dropping bombs on the Germans and Japanese during WWII we did't check to see if they were armed or not. It was enough to know that they declared war upon us and clearly stated they intended on killing us. This is the same idea and concept. Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could. Allowing him to arm himself before we shot him would have been stupid on our part. As Clint Eastwood said, in the Unforgiven, "He should have armed himself"

 

[Robert]

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

As is Beheading those who don't believe in your Religion or blowing up women and children or gunning innocent people flying fully loaded planes into buildings. But hey don't don't confuse those with people that should be protected.

those things are wrong also, but two wrongs don't make a right. Remember not all Germans were Nazi's, just like not all Muslims and arabs are terrorists. If torturing of people and children by killers and murderers is wrong so is the torturing of prisoners by governments. Some things are absolute. I believe that we as Americans are better than our enemies and we should prove that by not getting into the mud with them. As Americans we should never compromise on our principals.

We don't need to be better than our enemies we need to crush our enemies in no uncertain terms and if that means some Islamic Tools gets wet in the process I don't have a problem with it.

We don't have the luxury of playing nice when they have no such constraint given the tools they would nuke entire cites....I'm wondering how you would feel if one of these little fuckers wiped out a city that had your family in it only to find out that we had a person with the information in our custody and all we could do was use harsh language to stop the attack and that failed completely. I'm really wondering if your Morally superior Principles would allow to understand that you caused your family to die. How would you feel about that?

 

[Dr.Drock]

A Man of Principles my ass ya you keep your Principles I'm sure you think appeasement will stop the killing. I would rather more direct action be taken. And for the record Drock I'm fine with whatever is done to end the killing I don't feel the least bit sorry for these animals.

es ist gut, um Ihre Position zu diesem wissen.

danke schoen

alle hagel unserer glorreichen vaterland!

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate certain arabic countries.

"Do the same things terror nations are doing! I hate terror nations for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

 

[del]

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

no thanks.

i'm an american, mein herr.

Really?

i wouldn't kid a foreigner.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There are really only two POV's on this issue of waterboarding, you are either Ok with it or not. This comes down to a moral principal which a person has regarding torture. The question that must be asked is wether or not we are comfortable with others inflicting pain on another person, on our behalf. Lets face it, how many of us could actually torture someone else? What kind of person can do such a thing, and how as a society could we ask someone to do it on our behalf? When a soldier waterboards a terrorist what are we doing to the soldier, does anyone ever think about that? Perhaps we should let the BTK killer do the waterboarding, he seems right for the job. Do we want someone walking around in our society who tortures people for a living? Do we want this persons identity made public? Can a torturer just stop torturing when they have done it for an extended period of time? Does the torturer get counciling before and after? This is a hell of a thing to ask of someone to do and we should think long and hard before we ask them to do it.

Again with the moral high ground? You cannot not claim waterboarding is bad, and say it was good to kill an unarmed man. No matter how much you may have hated him. No matter how much the government viewed him as an enmey.

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first. When we were dropping bombs on the Germans and Japanese during WWII we did't check to see if they were armed or not. It was enough to know that they declared war upon us and clearly stated they intended on killing us. This is the same idea and concept. Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could. Allowing him to arm himself before we shot him would have been stupid on our part. As Clint Eastwood said, in the Unforgiven, "He should have armed himself"

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first.

Deflection. Is it morally wrong to to claim waterboarding is wrong but be ok with killing an unarmed man?

Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could.

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

 

[del]

Again with the moral high ground? You cannot not claim waterboarding is bad, and say it was good to kill an unarmed man. No matter how much you may have hated him. No matter how much the government viewed him as an enmey.

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first. When we were dropping bombs on the Germans and Japanese during WWII we did't check to see if they were armed or not. It was enough to know that they declared war upon us and clearly stated they intended on killing us. This is the same idea and concept. Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could. Allowing him to arm himself before we shot him would have been stupid on our part. As Clint Eastwood said, in the Unforgiven, "He should have armed himself"

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first.

Deflection. Is it morally wrong to to claim waterboarding is wrong but be ok with killing an unarmed man?

Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could.

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

from the link....

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW
by Carol A. Valentine
Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum

thanks for dropping by


seek help

 

[spectrumc01]

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

But how does this relate to your claim that those that waterboard are basically monsters?

Where is the evidence that shows that those who have engaged in sanctioned torture techniques and/or executions have become mentally unstable?

Come on man use a little fore thought. We probably won't get any evidence until these guys start showing up at the VA hospitals with complaints. The use of agent orange was thought to be a good idea at the time because there was no proof that it hurt anyone until it came out in the aftermath that it did and this is the same rationale you are using now. This I call flawed thinking.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

But how does this relate to your claim that those that waterboard are basically monsters?

Where is the evidence that shows that those who have engaged in sanctioned torture techniques and/or executions have become mentally unstable?

Come on man use a little fore thought. We probably won't get any evidence until these guys start showing up at the VA hospitals with complaints. The use of agent orange was thought to be a good idea at the time because there was no proof that it hurt anyone until it came out in the aftermath that it did and this is the same rationale you are using now. This I call flawed thinking.

You seem to think that "torturers" didn't exist until now. And my thinking is flawed?

 

[Robert]

es ist gut, um Ihre Position zu diesem wissen.

danke schoen

alle hagel unserer glorreichen vaterland!

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate certain arabic countries.

"Do the same things terror nations are doing! I hate terror nations for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

So now I "hate certain arabic countries" Pull your head out of your ass good grief get back to me when you've gotten some oxygen.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate certain arabic countries.

"Do the same things terror nations are doing! I hate terror nations for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

So now I "hate certain arabic countries" Pull your head out of your ass good grief get back to me when you've gotten some oxygen.

Alright I'll reword

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate terror groups.

"Do the same things terror groups are doing! I hate terror groups for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

 

[spectrumc01]

As is Beheading those who don't believe in your Religion or blowing up women and children or gunning innocent people flying fully loaded planes into buildings. But hey don't don't confuse those with people that should be protected.

those things are wrong also, but two wrongs don't make a right. Remember not all Germans were Nazi's, just like not all Muslims and arabs are terrorists. If torturing of people and children by killers and murderers is wrong so is the torturing of prisoners by governments. Some things are absolute. I believe that we as Americans are better than our enemies and we should prove that by not getting into the mud with them. As Americans we should never compromise on our principals.

We don't need to be better than our enemies we need to crush our enemies in no uncertain terms and if that means some Islamic Tools gets wet in the process I don't have a problem with it.

We don't have the luxury of playing nice when they have no such constraint given the tools they would nuke entire cites....I'm wondering how you would feel if one of these little fuckers wiped out a city that had your family in it only to find out that we had a person with the information in our custody and all we could do was use harsh language to stop the attack and that failed completely. I'm really wondering if your Morally superior Principles would allow to understand that you caused your family to die. How would you feel about that?

We are a country that believes in justice, honor, and integrity. This is what I was led to believe as a soldier in the US Army during the first Gulf War. The Geneva convention was taught to us before deployment. I would feel bad if my family was to be killed in such a manner. As I come from a military family, I would seek justice with honor. I would seek victory with integrity. A weak man compromises his principals for a quick and easy victory. A strong man achieves victory by adhearing to his principals and proving he is just and honorable.

 

[Vanquish]

It was amazing to see that weatherman on Fox and Friends get his ass handed to him this morning when he tried to prove waterboarding was ok....against John McCain.

McCain said it absolutely WAS torture and that it DIDN'T lead to actionable intelligence about OBL. In fact, he went on to say that it gave LIES that would have been a waste of time and resources.

"Tales from the Dad Side?" what a dumb-ass name for what is surely a dumb-ass book.

The CIA (the ones that actually engaged in waterboarding) says different.

Care to cite to a source, tardo? Because I can cite to other sources that refute that besides McCain. McCain even cites to two sources IN the interview.

All this would be funny if America wasn't losing it's soul over it. Amerikkka!!! Torture capital of the world!

 

[spectrumc01]

But how does this relate to your claim that those that waterboard are basically monsters?

Where is the evidence that shows that those who have engaged in sanctioned torture techniques and/or executions have become mentally unstable?

Come on man use a little fore thought. We probably won't get any evidence until these guys start showing up at the VA hospitals with complaints. The use of agent orange was thought to be a good idea at the time because there was no proof that it hurt anyone until it came out in the aftermath that it did and this is the same rationale you are using now. This I call flawed thinking.

You seem to think that "torturers" didn't exist until now. And my thinking is flawed?

Tortures did exist before now, and until now we put them into prison not into the employ of the US government.

 

[Robert]

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate certain arabic countries.

"Do the same things terror nations are doing! I hate terror nations for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

So now I "hate certain arabic countries" Pull your head out of your ass good grief get back to me when you've gotten some oxygen.

Alright I'll reword

The funniest thing about all this, is you actually don't get that you're pushing for us to employ the tactics that have caused you to hate terror groups.

"Do the same things terror groups are doing! I hate terror groups for doing those things! I love America so i hope we do those things!"

There is nothing funny about the Threat to our People that is poised by these animals I absolutely have zero interests in saving these people dignity in terms of us finding information to put a stop to these animals. Think about like this and the rest of your simpering Morally Superior tools might want to pay attention.

I view these actions which have been undertaken in the same light as me protecting my family when I say I have utterly no constraints when it comes to protecting them it is the same that I feel needs to be done for our Nation. There is no level to which I will stop to protect them.

Now you might not feel that way about your family or for that matter our Nation that's fine its your problem not mine but when it comes to this Nation and our Protection against these animals what ever is done to them to end this crap is absolutely fine with me to do otherwise means these Islamic tools are a threat to me and mine.

 

[JimH52]

Again with the moral high ground? You cannot not claim waterboarding is bad, and say it was good to kill an unarmed man. No matter how much you may have hated him. No matter how much the government viewed him as an enmey.

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first. When we were dropping bombs on the Germans and Japanese during WWII we did't check to see if they were armed or not. It was enough to know that they declared war upon us and clearly stated they intended on killing us. This is the same idea and concept. Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could. Allowing him to arm himself before we shot him would have been stupid on our part. As Clint Eastwood said, in the Unforgiven, "He should have armed himself"

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first.

Deflection. Is it morally wrong to to claim waterboarding is wrong but be ok with killing an unarmed man?

Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could.

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

There is no use arguing with you. You are an Obama hater, so you need some reason to justify your "unarmed man" stupid reasoning. It isn't worth anymore key strokes from the point forward.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Was it good to kill an unarmed man? When we fly unmaned drones and kill terrorists with rockets we don't check to see if they are armed first. When we were dropping bombs on the Germans and Japanese during WWII we did't check to see if they were armed or not. It was enough to know that they declared war upon us and clearly stated they intended on killing us. This is the same idea and concept. Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could. Allowing him to arm himself before we shot him would have been stupid on our part. As Clint Eastwood said, in the Unforgiven, "He should have armed himself"

Deflection. Is it morally wrong to to claim waterboarding is wrong but be ok with killing an unarmed man?

Bin Laden clearly stated that he was at war with the US and that he intended on killing as many of us as he could.

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

from the link....

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW
by Carol A. Valentine
Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum

thanks for dropping by


seek help

How ever yoiu view the source matters not to me. The fact which you cannot refute ius the FBI did not want Bin Laden for the attacks on the world trade center. and the original source is not the only interview source.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5tmogd9xp4]YouTube - Bill Cooper Predicts 911 Attack/Bin Laden Interview - June 28, 2001[/ame]

 

[spectrumc01]

Deflection. Is it morally wrong to to claim waterboarding is wrong but be ok with killing an unarmed man?



October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

from the link....

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW
by Carol A. Valentine
Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum

thanks for dropping by


seek help

How ever yoiu view the source matters not to me. The fact which you cannot refute ius the FBI did not want Bin Laden for the attacks on the world trade center. and the original source is not the only interview source.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5tmogd9xp4]YouTube - Bill Cooper Predicts 911 Attack/Bin Laden Interview - June 28, 2001[/ame]

Have you been paying attention lately to his journals? Did you notice that he was upset with his followers for not going after US targets more frequently? Catch up and then come back.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It was amazing to see that weatherman on Fox and Friends get his ass handed to him this morning when he tried to prove waterboarding was ok....against John McCain.

McCain said it absolutely WAS torture and that it DIDN'T lead to actionable intelligence about OBL. In fact, he went on to say that it gave LIES that would have been a waste of time and resources.

"Tales from the Dad Side?" what a dumb-ass name for what is surely a dumb-ass book.

The CIA (the ones that actually engaged in waterboarding) says different.

Care to cite to a source, tardo? Because I can cite to other sources that refute that besides McCain. McCain even cites to two sources IN the interview.

All this would be funny if America wasn't losing it's soul over it. Amerikkka!!! Torture capital of the world!

RealClearPolitics - CIA: 'Enhanced Interrogation' Led U.S. to Osama