A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[Robert]

Amazing

So if you were being tortured by the enemy, you'd be like "oh it's no big deal, there's the enemy's doctor there to make sure I'm safe."

No probably not. But I'm not going to assume I know what's in the minds of pow's. Besides ][/B]waterboarding isn't torture.

Are you serious? it's not torture? perhaps we should let parents discipline there children with the waterboarding technique, being that it isn't torture.

Hey I have a great Idea let's completely fall off the deep end and start speaking about Torturing children because YA THAT"S HAPPENED!!!

 

[del]

A Man of Principles my ass ya you keep your Principles I'm sure you think appeasement will stop the killing. I would rather more direct action be taken. And for the record Drock I'm fine with whatever is done to end the killing I don't feel the least bit sorry for these animals.

es ist gut, um Ihre Position zu diesem wissen.

danke schoen

alle hagel unserer glorreichen vaterland!

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

no thanks.

i'm an american, mein herr.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes, someone did actually waterboard another person. That is a fact or we would not be debating it. This someone has a job working for the US, and was trained in the art of waterboarding, we just don't give them a burlap sack and a bucket of water and say have at it. I would call this sufficient evidence.

Nice dodge.

Where's the evidence that the person was turned into a monster.

Come on use the "Logic" that you put behind the "Lonestar". What do you call someone that tortures people like the BTK killer, is he not a monster? what would you consider him? People that put cigarrettes out on children. what do you call them? Do you read the paper at all? how do read about mans inhumanity to man and not call them monsters as they torture and kill one another? Torture is torture no matter the reason or goal involved. A person is the sum of their expieriences and if those expieriences are monstrous what does that make the person?

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

 

[Robert]

es ist gut, um Ihre Position zu diesem wissen.

danke schoen

alle hagel unserer glorreichen vaterland!

Maybe you need to spend some time and learn Arabic instead.

no thanks.

i'm an american, mein herr.

Really?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Amazing

So if you were being tortured by the enemy, you'd be like "oh it's no big deal, there's the enemy's doctor there to make sure I'm safe."

No probably not. But I'm not going to assume I know what's in the minds of pow's. Besides ][/B]waterboarding isn't torture.

Are you serious? it's not torture? perhaps we should let parents discipline there children with the waterboarding technique, being that it isn't torture.

Children will tell you that 'time out" is torture.

 

[Care4all]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

 

[Liability]

If one rejects the self-serving liberal premise that waterboarding "is" torture, then the matter is nowhere near as clear as the piece quoted in del's OP suggests.

The value of the OP begins with a seriously debated premise and, imho, it therefore falls flat.

you should let jacoby know he's a liberal.

i'm sure he'll be surprised.

Hm. I don't recall saying that he was. How 'bout dat?

 

[bodecea]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

Because the Terrorists have succeeded in terrorizing people to the point that they are eager to sell their principles for some perception of safety.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

The world has changed.

 

[Liability]

Those who insist on declaring that water boarding "is" torture seem to use the following syllogism:

I don't want to be tortured.

I don't want to be water boarded.
______________________________
Therefore water boarding is torture.​

 

[uscitizen]

The CIA (the ones that actually engaged in waterboarding) says different.

Had people wearing turbans been administering the boarding they may have viewed it differently.
Torture has a strong mental aspect not just physical.

You mean like beheading innocents?

Ahh more logical fellatio.

 

[spectrumc01]

Nice dodge.

Where's the evidence that the person was turned into a monster.

Come on use the "Logic" that you put behind the "Lonestar". What do you call someone that tortures people like the BTK killer, is he not a monster? what would you consider him? People that put cigarrettes out on children. what do you call them? Do you read the paper at all? how do read about mans inhumanity to man and not call them monsters as they torture and kill one another? Torture is torture no matter the reason or goal involved. A person is the sum of their expieriences and if those expieriences are monstrous what does that make the person?

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

 

[xsited1]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

Because the Justice Department made it okay.

 

[Robert]

If water boarding (water torture) was determined to be torture by the USA previously, WHY OH WHY would it not be considered torture now?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

"Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture." History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News

I just do not see what makes it ok now if it was not ok with the USA before?

Because the Terrorists have succeeded in terrorizing people to the point that they are eager to sell their principles for some perception of safety.

You speak of "principles" yet seemingly you have no issue with shooting an unarmed old man well the shooting was more of an assassination but why split hairs. Do your 'principles' still apply?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Videos Seized from bin Laden's Compound Released | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

A video was released without audio?

The current government is the biggest pack of liars Nothing they give out can be believed.

If our government is so trustworthy why didn't the FBI want him for the attacks on the world trade center?

Because the gathering of evidence on that particular charge was still ongoing...

US Attorney General Eric Holder has said that the raid on Osama Bin Laden's hideout, in which the al-Qaeda leader was killed, was "not an assassination".

Mr Holder told the BBC the operation was a "kill or capture mission" and that Bin Laden's surrender would have been accepted if offered.

The protection of the Navy Seals who carried out the raid was "uppermost in our minds", he added.

Bin Laden was shot dead on 2 May in his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

Mr Holder said the special forces had acted "in an appropriate way" in the absence of any clear indication Bin Laden had been going to surrender.

"If the possibility had existed, if there was the possibility of a feasible surrender, that would have occurred," he said.

"But their protection, that is the protection of the force that went into that compound, was I think uppermost in our minds."

The attorney general reiterated that the operation was legal, saying that international law allows the targeting of enemy commanders.



"The information we have... showed that [Bin Laden] was pushing al-Qaeda to engage in more plots in more areas of the world and on specific dates”


"I actually think that the dotting of the i's and the crossing of the t's is what separates the United States, the United Kingdom, our allies, from those who we are fighting," he said.

BBC News - Bin Laden death 'not an assassination' - Eric Holder

Because the gathering of evidence on that particular charge was still ongoing...

In 2006 Dick Cheney said they had no evidence that conacted Bin Laden with the attacks on the world trade center.

 

[Robert]

Come on use the "Logic" that you put behind the "Lonestar". What do you call someone that tortures people like the BTK killer, is he not a monster? what would you consider him? People that put cigarrettes out on children. what do you call them? Do you read the paper at all? how do read about mans inhumanity to man and not call them monsters as they torture and kill one another? Torture is torture no matter the reason or goal involved. A person is the sum of their expieriences and if those expieriences are monstrous what does that make the person?

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

As is Beheading those who don't believe in your Religion or blowing up women and children or gunning innocent people flying fully loaded planes into buildings. But hey don't don't confuse those with people that should be protected.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There are really only two POV's on this issue of waterboarding, you are either Ok with it or not. This comes down to a moral principal which a person has regarding torture. The question that must be asked is wether or not we are comfortable with others inflicting pain on another person, on our behalf. Lets face it, how many of us could actually torture someone else? What kind of person can do such a thing, and how as a society could we ask someone to do it on our behalf? When a soldier waterboards a terrorist what are we doing to the soldier, does anyone ever think about that? Perhaps we should let the BTK killer do the waterboarding, he seems right for the job. Do we want someone walking around in our society who tortures people for a living? Do we want this persons identity made public? Can a torturer just stop torturing when they have done it for an extended period of time? Does the torturer get counciling before and after? This is a hell of a thing to ask of someone to do and we should think long and hard before we ask them to do it.

Again with the moral high ground? You cannot not claim waterboarding is bad, and say it was good to kill an unarmed man. No matter how much you may have hated him. No matter how much the government viewed him as an enmey.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Come on use the "Logic" that you put behind the "Lonestar". What do you call someone that tortures people like the BTK killer, is he not a monster? what would you consider him? People that put cigarrettes out on children. what do you call them? Do you read the paper at all? how do read about mans inhumanity to man and not call them monsters as they torture and kill one another? Torture is torture no matter the reason or goal involved. A person is the sum of their expieriences and if those expieriences are monstrous what does that make the person?

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

But how does this relate to your claim that those that waterboard are basically monsters?

Where is the evidence that shows that those who have engaged in sanctioned torture techniques and/or executions have become mentally unstable?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The unarmed man who was the admitted mass murderer? Glad you are supporting OBL now. I guess it took a lot of soul searching?

No he wasn't

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

Can you please post a picture of your, "OBL did not deserve to be Murdered" bumper sticker. It will make you the darling of your neighborhood.

Can you display your "I'm a hypocrite and what ever my party does is ok with me but if the other party does it I will say it's wrong" bumper sticker.

 

[spectrumc01]

Yes he's a monster, but none of what you say has anything to do with sanctioned harsh interrogation techniques i.e. waterboarding.

You stated that those who engage in "torturing" (waterboarding) are basically monsters and for examples you put forth the BTK killer.

When looking for warning signs of a deeply disturbed individual we look to see if they tortured and killed animals when they were young. We look for this because the torture of living creatures shows a depravity that isn't desired in normal society. To teach and practice such depravity should also be considered unwanted as well.

As is Beheading those who don't believe in your Religion or blowing up women and children or gunning innocent people flying fully loaded planes into buildings. But hey don't don't confuse those with people that should be protected.

those things are wrong also, but two wrongs don't make a right. Remember not all Germans were Nazi's, just like not all Muslims and arabs are terrorists. If torturing of people and children by killers and murderers is wrong so is the torturing of prisoners by governments. Some things are absolute. I believe that we as Americans are better than our enemies and we should prove that by not getting into the mud with them. As Americans we should never compromise on our principals.